Ignorance of Child Abuse within JW community

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

True TomHarley::

You have your opinions about me ... and I have my opinions about you ... the difference is I believe in Freedom of Speech ... for without freedom of expression, all people make themselves into slaves ... sometimes quickly .. sometimes they just ossify slowly, but they ALWAYS become slaves.  This has been true since Babylon was a world power, and before.

When you object to my MANNER of speaking ... instead of addressing the ISSUES .. you enter the world of cognitive dissonance and self induced fantasy scenarios.

Please feel free to turn your eyes aside and skip over my choice of  non-"True Tom Approved Fonts"

There are many "holy" secular phrases I recognize, and you do not.  One of them is:

" I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY, BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT !"

The issue is whether or not we have Freedom, and Liberty to exercise it ... not font styles.

YOU want everything that is not expressly approved and conventional, forbidden, 

Again, lease feel free to turn your eyes aside and skip over my choice of  non-"True Tom Approved Fonts". That way you can ignore the REAL ISSUES , and live in a mental cocoon.

 

 

[Witness]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Witness: Wow! Now I've read everything. I have gone far enough to say “contempt” for someone pretending to be a witness when they're not, but to suggest “hate” as an alternative is not only against Scripture but that would mean it to be psychologically unbalanced.

 

It would imply that people should hate the house of God. So, King Solomon built the temple, its considered Idolatry. I guess that makes sense to an insane person.

 

Perhaps one doesn’t need to learn scripture, just an exorcism!

 

Prove to me using scripture that an earthly organization built within Satan's world, is the house of God.

Let me verify, that it should proven with scripture since Christ appeared on the earth.  You appear to be still under the "law" by your reference to Solomon's Temple.  God had in mind, not what Solomon built but something far greater.  Matt 12:6

 

[Witness]

6 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

Now before, you make me spill my coffee with laughter? Think “Jesus entered the Temple” is this temple heavenly? Did Satan all of a sudden die at that time? Are you suggesting Jesus was an idolater for entering the Temple? A Temple built by earthly “MEN”. Or are you suggesting something new, like God, sent angels to build the Temple, meaning if Jesus had taken possession of his kingship as ignorance has been suggested in other threads by 33 C.E, then Christ sacrifice would have meant nothing since his kingdom would have, been destroyed by man. This has nothing to do with your question, I just wanted to show you, you're NOT the only one to make my day with laughter.

I hope you are able to read the extension of my comment.   Prove to me from scripture.  You forget that Jesus said, "Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”  John 2:19  And what did he have in mind?

[John Clarke]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 10:03 AM, Ann O'Maly said:

Actually, the ARC found that wasn't so - not one alleged abuser was reported to the authorities, even though some states required it. E.g. I remember the consternation on Br. Spinks' face (Service Department) when it was put to him that they hadn't complied with NSW law about reporting if one has knowledge or a belief that a crime had been committed.

The Fessler case brought it to light that the Org did not comply with PA law by reporting the abuse. Not only that, but even when Watchtower has been court-ordered to produce documentation, it has done everything it can to wiggle out of or obstruct the production of documents, like with the Campos cases.

So it's fair to say that the general practice in the Org has been NOT to report suspected abuse to the secular authorities.

Where did you get the 'two-thirds' statistic from, by the way?

This is exactly why trained professionals should handle all allegations, rather than untrained elders. Besides, when laypersons bumble in, trying to ascertain the truth of an allegation, they can (unintentionally) corrupt any evidence-gathering which, in turn, compromises the case, making it harder to successfully resolve.

When there is a case of proven child abuse.  the guilty one is removed from the Christian Congregation ( Disfellowshiped)  and announced to the entire congregation that the guilty Party is no longer a member of the congregation, and the proper Legal authorities are informed, as well as other Congregations where the Wrongdoer may have had former contact, Look at the video on jw.org   jwbroadcasting under the title ,  we protect our children,  evidentally you may not have seen it, sincerely  john (jack) Clarke. thunterjack@comcast.net

 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, John Clarke said:

 Look at the video on jw.org   jwbroadcasting under the title ,  we protect our children,  evidentally you may not have seen it, sincerely  john (jack) Clarke. thunterjack@comcast.net

 

Turn back, turn back, John Clarke, good soul, before it is too late. This thread has been going on forever, maybe from before you were born. There are some here who are vicious, and some who are merely deranged. (and some fine loyal people, to be sure) You won't be able to calmly reason with them, for their greater goal has nothing to do with children. It is hatred for the organization God uses.

Seriously. If you do want to comment, and I don't doubt you have worthy things to say, read the whole thread (skim it, anyway, for some posts are obnoxious) for there is little to be said that's not been already said.

I mean it, John. Your only reward for making loyal points is to be smashed in the teeth with a baseball bat. It's too late for me. I've been trying to escape for pages, for I do have a life and I want to resume it. But then JTR or someone says something more stupid than usual and I am sucked in anew.

Run, John. Save yourself!

[John Clarke]

thanks for the Info & the red flags True tom Harley, I didn't read all of it (probally not enough) as you said, I've been there Before trying to reason with a person, However as much as we want to help, we have to remember no matter what subject we are trying to reason on : if they don't want to see it then that's up to them,I'll shake the dust off my feet on this one, Thanks Brother, It's like you said, some just try to tear down rather than build up ! Agape John( Jack) Clarke

[Witness]

3 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

You placed your extended comment right after I had posted, but that only shows the fallacy that you had the need to revise your comment to suggest something totally different now. Your anecdotal is on inanimate objects. So your false narrative about a corporation that can be hated is a misrepresentation of scripture.

Well, Allen, as I was preparing the addition to my comment a notice came in that I didn’t read until submitting it.  It was not done with sinister intentions but to specify the reference of time since Christ, as I know the Watchtower continually refers back to the early physical temple arrangement to support a physical place of worship today that is called, “God’s organization”. 

How did Jesus say we are to worship?  John 4:21-24

 Wt #2, 2016:

“The Jewish temple was a tangible structure at a specific geographic location. But spirit and truth are not material, nor are they limited to any physical place. Thus, Jesus was explaining that true Christian worship would not be centered in or dependent on any material structure or physical location, whether Mount Gerizim, the temple in Jerusalem, or any other sacred place.

 Additionally, the Bible tells us how God views the veneration of idols in worship. It says: “Flee from idolatry” and “guard yourselves from idols.” (1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21) Therefore, a true Christian would not worship at any place that is viewed as holy in itself or one that encourages idolatry. Thus, on account of the very nature of shrines, true Christians refrain from worshipping at them.

Therefore, you do not need to go to a shrine in hopes that God is more likely to hear your prayer there. Nor will God be pleased with you or give you special blessings for making a pilgrimage to a shrine. The Bible tells us that Jehovah God, the “Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples.” But this does not make God distant from us. We can pray to him and be heard anywhere because “he is not far off from each one of us.”—Acts 17:24-27. 

If a person is able to pray anywhere and receive God’s Holy Spirit, an earthly organization is not needed, is it?  Successfully, men have convinced millions to put their trust in the Watchtower organization, and are suffering over inappropriate judgment and care for the sheep – true evidence of the lack of Holy Spirit for transgressing God’s will to recognize HIS arrangement.

Do you remember what God told Moses?

^“ Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.  If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.  They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.:”   But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.”  Heb 8:3-6

If you care to read scriptures, you will see that through those I presented to Tom earlier in this topic, just what and who comprises the Temple today.

Still, I have not received any scriptures from you supporting an earthly organization as necessary to worship in Christ.

“Therefore, a true Christian would not worship at any place that is viewed as holy in itself or one that encourages idolatry.”

Is the organization “holy” to you, Allen? 

[Ann O'Maly]

19 hours ago, John Clarke said:

When there is a case of proven child abuse.  the guilty one is removed from the Christian Congregation ( Disfellowshiped)  and announced to the entire congregation that the guilty Party is no longer a member of the congregation, and the proper Legal authorities are informed, as well as other Congregations where the Wrongdoer may have had former contact, Look at the video on jw.org   jwbroadcasting under the title ,  we protect our children,  evidentally you may not have seen it, sincerely  john (jack) Clarke.

I know you mean well, but I saw the JW Broadcasting segment when it first came out. He skirted around the core issue (the Org's responses when there is a disclosure about a JW abuser), proudly held up an old Awake! which scapegoated the gay community as pedophiles (silly, untrue and offensive), and showed a cartoon which taught little children that abusers look like scary boogeymen (very misleading, as abusers are often 'nice' people they personally know or are related to, and who spend considerable time grooming their victims first so that they feel trapped and can't do or say anything to stop them! E.g., what should the child do when the abuser is their 'beloved' parent? Is there a cartoon on that?).

And as far as the Org's response to disclosures go, the ARC findings and numerous court cases all over the world have shown that your idealized view of how they are/have been handled in the congregation is, in the main, nothing like the reality. Even if the abuse is proven, the guilty one isn't necessarily disfellowshipped. If they are judged to be repentant by the elders, they stay as congregation members. 

Moreover (and this is important), the protocol you've outlined above is all backwards. If there is disclosure, the secular authorities should be informed FIRST. It's an allegation of a CRIME. The authorities can conduct an investigation to confirm the truth (or otherwise) of that disclosure and take any necessary steps to protect the child. Based on what the authorities discover, the elders can act accordingly.

@TrueTomHarley Nobody's twisting your arm up your back to comment, you know? It is voluntary. You can walk away and leave the 'stupid' people to slug it out between themselves, you know? 

[John Clarke]

I have been one of Jehovah's witnesses for over 65 years. And what you say is drastically wrong, since you are not part of J Ws, you are only guessing. as I have seen throughout the years the guilty ones( few though they are) are not allowed to infect any of the congregation members with their Un-Christian, behavior Un-like other religions that have merely moved their filthy Leaders & members to another area where they can continue on in their filth, we make sure that the record of their Behavior follows them where ever they may go through their life within the Christian Congregations, if this answer does not satisfy you. then maybe your just looking to argue, ( I hope not ) As for the authorities ! they are Quickly notified as to who the person is & given all the information on the individual, I hope this Information is relevant to your problem, If not ! then I would consider it finished as far as I am concerned , Sincerely John (Jack) Clarke

[TrueTomHarley]

Hang your head in shame, Ann, for your people butcher your second most important cause. Because, like you, they all have additional agendas, which conflict, and thus they cannot cooperate on what ought to be the easiest project in the word. You’re not fixing it. It worsens. If you’re isavvy, Ann, tune in at the right time, which is anytime, and watch a twelve-year old girl hang herself on the internet, a victim of child sexual abuse. A further victim of an internet run by adults of the world you’ve chosen who cannot collectively ban even that image online (you don’t see it on JWBroadcasting, do you? They know what belongs, and what doesn’t belong, online), thus planting a cool new idea in the minds of countless ravaged youngsters who already have the highest suicide rate. Hang your head in shame, Ann, for doing nothing beyond words to stem the calamity.

Hang your head in fear, Ann, and Witness, and JTR, for opposing the one people who consistently favor children. Who do not barrage them with internet violence and perversion. Who do not spy on them AI to sell them merchandise, who do not run them $$$$$ into debt as they seek education, who act immediately to clear out perverts from the ranks, and who offer children a wholesome life now and a joyful future.

JTR doesn’t belong with the villains? Bullshit! His comments show where his heart is. Pity the elders at the Kingdom Hall, if there is one, that is graced by his presence. No. He is Professor Emeritus at the O’Maly Institute, though even Ann blushes at his belligerent tirades. Still, she hates what he hates, and so they are the most bosom chums.

Straighten out and fly right, Ann, and your chums, while there is yet time, if there is. For while the door was shut to you, probably, it was not locked.

[Ann O'Maly]

OK, @John Clarke, I take it you are or have been a serving elder. I'm curious.

• How many child abuse allegations have your bodies of elders dealt with in your 65 years' membership as a JW?
• How many of those were reported to the police or child protection bodies by the elders? 
• How many abusers were disfellowshipped because of their abuse?
• How are JWs, who have been guilty of child abuse but not disfellowshipped, monitored in their interactions with young congregants and in the public preaching work?
• Do you reject the findings of the ARC which evidences a very different standard practice to the one you claim?

 

 

@TrueTomHarley - I can't make much sense of all your ranting, but I think it's basically jabbing fingers everywhere else but home. Seeing as this thread is centering on child abuse within the JW community, what measures do you think should be put in place to improve responses to child abuse allegations and to protect the victims from further harm?

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

I can't make much sense of all your ranting, 

If Ann cannot discern allusions, metaphors and literary devices, it is because she has single issue razor sharp focus on one issue and one issue alone. And she also has an interest in children.

It is often that way with zealots. They see only what they want to see. They ask 20 questions, which are all actually the same question. It does little good to answer them, because they don't want an answer. They rephrase their question, and ask it again. Or seek another person to ask it to.

It does no good to even win the victory with them. They are like the Monty Python Black Knight, who loses both arms and both legs, and still taunts his opponent as he leaves in incredulous disgust.

Surely Hillary v Trump has taught us that. Both side tirelessly scream at the other. they are like fans at the football game - cheer when the home team scores, wince when they incur penalty or injury. But they never imagine for one second the other side is not the Devil.