Ignorance of Child Abuse within JW community

[John Clarke]

5 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

OK, @John Clarke, I take it you are or have been a serving elder. I'm curious.

• How many child abuse allegations have your bodies of elders dealt with in your 65 years' membership as a JW?
• How many of those were reported to the police or child protection bodies by the elders? 
• How many abusers were disfellowshipped because of their abuse?
• How are JWs, who have been guilty of child abuse but not disfellowshipped, monitored in their interactions with young congregants and in the public preaching work?
• Do you reject the findings of the ARC which evidences a very different standard practice to the one you claim?

 

 

@TrueTomHarley - I can't make much sense of all your ranting, but I think it's basically jabbing fingers everywhere else but home. Seeing as this thread is centering on child abuse within the JW community, what measures do you think should be put in place to improve responses to child abuse allegations and to protect the victims from further harm?

Ann O'Maly. It seems to me that you just want to argue, If you have any Questions, go to the local Congregation and ask the Elders the same Questions. unless you Turned Apostate & are just looking to justify your actions, that's what it sounds like to me !Don't bother me any more, !  and to answer your Question True TomHarley,   ARMAGEDDON,

                                                     End of discussion ; 

[Witness]

5 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

How can you hate a corporation without hating the people inside? The people inside make the corporation, not the label one places or the building it uses.

Truly, I believe you are trying to understand what I’m talking about as you reason on my words, albeit wrongly.  If only you would stop shooting the messenger.

“Both provenience, are mutually exclusive. If you “hate” a corporation, then you “hate” the people inside.”  

 This isn’t true, because I have many past friends in the organization that I love.  I came out of there myself.  The “image” of the corporation is regarded as “holy” – “spirit-directed”. Rev 13:15 This is blasphemy to God as is indicated in the Wt. quote I presented.   It has become one’s salvation – no one on the outside of those walls are destined, according to teaching, to be in line for everlasting life.  This is what I hate, the untruth, the lie.  Everlasting life comes only through Christ. 

The Temple of God is his priesthood within the Body of Christ.  Because of the result of oppression over the anointed to obey a false priesthood, (“the elder body represent the royal priesthood”) I also hate this, as it blasphemes God’s direction.  Matt 24:15,16; Luke 21:24; Dan 7:19; 8:10; Rev 11:2  It has left the anointed ones – God’s own priesthood -  voiceless.  Should that not concern every JW who desires to see the Kingdom come, who realize they are the ones along with Christ who work as to bring life to the rest of mankind?  Rev 22:1-5; 3:12   Since I have been out of the organization and connected with other anointed ones, Holy Spirit has freely blessed these ones to have a voice in harmony with truth in Christ.  It doesn’t take 7 men and a corporation to get the word of truth out.  God’s Spirit is stronger than men.  Isa 55:1-11

Think about this, in the early temple arrangement, was anyone allowed to represent or replace God’s priesthood?   Do you remember the scriptures I posted about this very thing under “Why such blatant hypocrisy?” under Controversial posts?  The evidence lies in the scriptures.  Why would God change his mind and allow men to do things as they please by appointing their own false priesthood which has gotten them in a heap of trouble, and which will not be healed by a band aid?  Jer 6:14; 8:22

Instead of acknowledging God’s plan of worshiping only in spirit and in truth, the organization has instigated its own ideas which they call ordained by God – a “spirit-directed organization”.  This is a lie, which I hate.

As I have said in the post mentioned above, it is an operation of error that was prophesied to occur in the last days.  2 Thess 2:1-12 

I hate the idol, Allen, and the oppression of God’s chosen people, besides all those who must obey and work with their hands to please men.  Rev 11:1-3  The call to “come out of her, my people” is the call to leave the sins of the organization behind and listen completely to Christ, as God directed us to do.  Rev 18:4-8  There, we receive refinement from sins; there we conclude the true understanding of why the organization exists.  Rev 3:18; chapter 13  And it is there that the Marriage feast of Christ and his Bride takes place – not in a harbor of sin, confusion, errors, oppression, hatred for those who leave the organization, and a wicked slave that demands all to obey even when they err.  Rev 12:14; Luke 17:31-37; Matt 24:48-51

If I hated you, Allen, or anyone here, I wouldn’t take so much time to try and explain using scriptures, the genuine truth.  If someone hates another, they walk away from them, possibly calling them every name in the book.  Jesus was marked as a rebel by the Jews, yet he kept speaking to them.  Is it any different for those in Christ who try their earnest to represent his truths to their brothers in the organization?  Luke 21:12; John 15:20

 

God Saves Israel - http://godsavesisrael.blogspot.com/2012/12/godsaves-israel.html?m=0

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

If you answer someone like Witness, and you probably should not, make several references to God’s organization, totally without supporting evidence, and watch her pull her hair out in frenzy and hurl two dozen scriptures at you which are relevant only in her own mind.

There is evidence, of course, but it is nothing that she would ever accept. The evidence lies in opening your eyes to what is right before you. If God didn’t like jw.org, he would short circuit the translation department so that all languages devolved into Pig Latin. How many languages does anyone else have - five? This feat and a dozen other parallel ones, all by unpaid volunteers, all for the furtherance of Christ’s commission to preach and teach, would not exist if God was steamed at them. That is your evidence.

However, if you hate the Kingdom message, you will hate the organization that facilitates its spread. It’s no more complicated than that. When they throw scriptures at you that they imagine undermines organization, it’s well not to patiently explain each one to them, because the scriptures have nothing to do with it. It is hatred of the Kingdom message that motivates everything they do. Address their motives, not their questions.

Of course, these are generalizations. There are caveats. Who cannot be grateful to AllenSmith, who interprets Ann’s bit of bile and throws it back in her face? I would not know enough to do it. I just assume that the liars are going to lie, and it always turns out that way. But Allen highlights for us all just how and where they lie. Thank you, Allen.

Loyal brothers and sisters of Jehovah, all of whom have some reservations about participating here, but in the end feel they must assume Elihu’s role and rally to the defense of an honest man being attacked by dogs, encourage and reinforce and teach one another.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

TrueTomHarley:

WOW!  That is absolutely stunning !

Reminds me of "Hogan's Heroes" TV show of years ago, Sgt Shultz.".

 

[TrueTomHarley]

Every good story needs a villain. If you are writing your next book, wondering how you are going to sneak it past the Librarian, since she has forbidden you to speak of your other two books and you must be contacted using the Message feature in order to say anything about them, thus She is interfering with FREE SPEECH, to which I have a RIGHT!!!  our forefathers having DIED for it!! Do you HEAR me, you DISGUSTING and IGNORANT old HEN??!!! (stylistic nod to JTR, thank you) you need some villains. Unfortunately for Jehovah’s Witnesses, they don’t get to hang out with many of them. To be sure, they get to hang out with endless oddballs, but that is not the same. Nor is it a bad thing. Our oddballs are lovable, generally, because they are humble and usually well-intentioned. But when the outside world produces an oddball, call the SWAT team and after that, the FBI for a new identity. As I get older, I find I don’t really like people unless they are nuts like me. That is an overstatement, like most of what I write. I get along quite well with the straight shooters, and they with me, but it’s the nuts I am most drawn to.

Tragically, for the JW writer, whenever a villain is found out in the organization, he is shown the door. Once again, the Witness writer is stuck with nothing but goody-two-shoes - fine people to be around, but worthless to an aspiring writer.

Fortunately, God provides. The problem of finding villains is easily remedied. No one can be said to be worthless, for they can always be used as a bad example. All you need do is go online and post something favorable to God and his organization. Instantly a villain will appear. “OH YEAH?!” they scream, and then it is ‘Game On.’

You engage with them for whatever time it takes. Eventually you have your article or your post or your book written, and then you cut them loose. When you do, you are not snotty about it. On the contrary, you are grateful, for they have helped you.

Of course, you still must hang around to help out the home team, composed of members so different, but so cooperative, like members of the same body. JTR, I’m afraid, will readily agree I am a member of the body: An ARMPIT!!!! If not WORSE!!!****

[Ann O'Maly]

23 hours ago, John Clarke said:

Ann O'Maly. It seems to me that you just want to argue, If you have any Questions, go to the local Congregation and ask the Elders the same Questions. unless you Turned Apostate & are just looking to justify your actions, that's what it sounds like to me !Don't bother me any more, !  and to answer your Question True TomHarley,   ARMAGEDDON,

                                                     End of discussion ; 

I'm simply asking you questions, based on your long experience in the Organization. If you have first-hand knowledge of how child abuse allegations have been handled in your local congregation(s) over the past 65 years that gives a different picture from the findings of judicial courts and royal commissions, I'd like to know.

@TrueTomHarley 

I see that you have no suggestions to improve responses to child abuse allegations and to protect the victims from further harm.

M'OK. 

[Witness]

7 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

How is using scripture incorrectly helpful to you or anyone willing to listen to you? I don’t have time to go one on one with every erred perception you’ve claimed. But I’ll give you an example to see where your ideology is not bible understanding, by using someone else’s thoughts that are NOT connected to the WTS.

And I will use the Watchtower, because even though their next article about the Body of Christ will be completely different, they do reveal truth at times.

“Those with an earthly hope discern that they themselves are not anointed members of the body of Christ, nor are they in the new covenant that Jehovah made with those who will rule with Jesus Christ.

They feel a bond of unity with their brothers and sisters as members of Christ’s body. Gathering Things in

At 1 Corinthians 10:16, 17, Paul, in discussing the particular import of the bread for spirit-anointed brothers of Christ, mentioned “body” in a special sense. He said: “The loaf which we break, is it not a sharing in the body of the Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, although many, are one body, for we are all partaking of that one loaf.” When anointed Christians partake of the Memorial bread, they declare their unity within the congregation of anointed ones, which is like a body with Christ as the Head.—Matthew 23:10; 1 Corinthians 12:12, 13, 18. Heaven and Things on Earth  The Watchtower (2006)

‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife  and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh.  Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”  Mark 10:7-9

Are two people that marry literally one flesh?

 "We have identified the Bridegroom, but who is his bride? She is a composite bride made up of the members of the congregation headed by Jesus Christ. (Read Ephesians 5:23, 24.) They will become a part of Christ’s Messianic Kingdom. (Luke 12:32) These 144,000 spirit-anointed Christians “keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes.” (Rev. 14:1-4) They become “the Lamb’s wife” and reside with him in his heavenly abode.—Rev. 21:9; John 14:2, 3. Wt 14/2/15

 ^“ I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.”  2 Cor 11:2

“Who are the 144,000? John explains that they “have [Jesus’] name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.” And he adds: “These are the ones who keep following the Lamb [that is, Jesus] no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind.” Bhs chapter 8

“These spirit-begotten, anointed brothers of Christ become underpriests of the High Priest, “a royal priesthood.” They become the “bride” of Christ, and are the body of persons whom Christ takes into a covenant for the Kingdom, to rule with Him.”  It1 pges 520-525

“Those who become members of the body of Christ are “fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God.” (Eph 2:19) They are likened to a holy temple of living stones for Jehovah and constitute “a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.” (1Pe 2:5, 9) They must cleanse themselves of “every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear.” (2Co 7:1) If a Christian practices habits that defile or damage his fleshly body, or make it filthy or unclean, or if he goes contrary to the Bible in doctrine or morals, he does not love or fear God and is turning away from holiness. One cannot carry on uncleanness and remain holy. it-1 pp. 1127-1131 

 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies

"What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
    and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.”^]

¹⁷ Therefore,

“Come out from them
    and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
    and I will receive you.”^]

¹⁸ And,

“I will be a Father to you,
    and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.” 2 Cor 6:16-18

 

So, tell me your questions again?  

I don’t know how you would refute any of this since it comes straight from the Watchtower and the bible. 

 

A note to Librarian – thank you for your tolerance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

I see that you have no suggestions to improve responses to child abuse allegations

Many times when you are a passenger in a plane that has hit some turbulence it is a fine thing not to smash down the cockpit door, chew out the pilot, and grab the wheel. This is especially true if it is only Passenger O'Maly, sitting two rows over, who insists the pilot be shot because she has hated his guts long before the flight ever began.

[Witness]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

that depends on how well you will ignore the context of

1 Corinthians 6:19 Context: The Temple of the Holy Spirit

19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own.

The WTS does understand it, as do I. But, I'll leave the misrepresentation to you with the WTS literature you often take out of context. Move on! Witness, You'll "never" make a convert with me.

 

If you seek for it as for hid treasure…

Here is what the Watchtower says about 1 Cor 6:19

One who is an anointed member of the Christian congregation, the body of Christ, and who commits fornication is taking a member of the Christ away and making that one a member of a harlot. Any such Christian committing fornication is bringing in moral defilement and is also “sinning against his own [fleshly] body.” He is putting himself in peril of being removed from the body of Christ, the temple organization, and is exposing himself to the danger of loathsome diseases. (1Co 6:13, 15-20; Pr 7:1-27) He may be ‘handed over by the congregation to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.’—1Co 5:5.

One who is a member of the body of Christ, as well as other dedicated persons who are associated with these spiritually begotten body members, must avoid not only physical fornication but also spiritual fornication. The Scriptures call one who has friendship with the world an ‘adulteress.’ (Jas 4:4) Jesus said of his disciples: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (Joh 17:16) Therefore, Jesus is careful that those who make up the members of his body are clean morally and spiritually. (Eph 5:26, 27) They are said to have their “bodies bathed with clean water.” (Heb 10:22)      it-1 pp. 348-350

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

On March 9, 2017 at 5:57 PM, John Clarke said:

"I take it you are or have been a serving elder. I'm curious.

says Ann O'Maly, as though she was genuinely curious, and then proceeds to ask her question, which is the same question she asks anyone she passes within 100 yards of, which is the question she positively lives to ask these days, which is the question that can be rephrased 20 different ways and will be if the answer is not the one she is hoping for.

But John Clarke is not some naive kid. He has been around the block. He knows insincerity when he sees it. He does regular Bible reading and he knows it is time to apply Isaiah 52:11: 'Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean'

[The Librarian]

@TrueTomHarley let's not impute bad motives on the part of others. 

honey rather than vinegar.....

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, The Librarian said:

 

1 hour ago, The Librarian said:

@TrueTomHarley let's not impute bad motives on the part of others. 

honey rather than vinegar.....

I don't believe that quantity of honey exists.