Ignorance of Child Abuse within JW community

[Anna]

You misunderstood me. I did say (reporting child abuse) "will free the elders to concentrate more on helping the victim spiritually, and leave the rest to the authorities". I did not mean elders would investigate the crime. If, lets say a parent, suspicious of their child being sexually abused by someone, approaches an elder with that concern, it is logical that the elders should ask some questions. (Unless of course the parent already volunteers enough information which convinces the elders something might be going on). It wouldn't be right for the elders to contact the authorities with every allegation of child abuse  (read this paper) unless they have a reasonable evidence themselves to suspect something (whether that is based on information from a parent/other member of the congregation or the victim) Of course the parent/other member of the congregation can bypass the elders and go straight to the police. Once the allegation is reported to the relevant authority, by the elders or others, then if the alleged perpetrator is a congregation member, and especially if they hold some responsibility, the elders do have to act in a congregational manner since the alleged perpetrator is now no longer "irreprehensible" even if the accusations are eventually proved wrong. What about the victim and their family? Do the elders have to wait until what the authorities establish? This may take months. In the meantime, surely the elders should be able to perform pastoral work, especially at a time where it might be needed the most. I understand why it is important not to interfere with professional work, but the elders cannot just ignore the family and the victim. No doubt there will be guidelines published on what the elders should and what they shouldn't talk about so as not to inadvertently hamper investigation.....

8 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Google other church child abuse policies. You will find that JW policies are nowhere near as robust

Policies are no good if they don't work in practice. Read this interesting report (first posted by CMP)

8 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Why does it have to be that a law needs to be passed to make 'Jehovah's Earthly Organization' do the right and responsible thing? 

Because the right and responsible thing might not necessarily be to report every allegation of child sexual abuse. Why do you think it has taken states this long to make reporting mandatory? Think about it.

 

[Anna]

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Toleration is not a black and white idea. It's on a spectrum. 50 shades of gray, and sometimes shades of black and blue.

Yup. As soon as I wrote that, a hundred different scenarios raced through my head, as you say, 50 shades of grey and some. This is what the whole child sexual abuse affair is about, 50 shades of grey. I should have perhaps clarified that and used a different description…..something like: most human beings hate the thought of a child being sexually abused.

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But I think that all sexual abuse is a kind of rape, and I think rape is a crime, and I think that any organizations that get out front and show that they are more concerned with the little ones, the victims, will have made themselves even more appealing in the area of recruitment, too.

I agree with you totally of course. The problem is with the fact that it’s not that simple to identify sexual abuse. It’s not like murder, where we have an obvious victim, (a body), and obviously a murderer. But even then, in many cases, the murderer is not found. Without concrete proof, everyone is innocent…..until proved guilty. I remember following the Casey Anthony case, to me, all the signs were there that she killed her two year old daughter, but the Police could not prove it. So she got some prison time for lying, and now is free.

By the way, did you ever manage to put together a draft of what you thought might be the best policy for us when handling child sexual abuse? I know we talked about it a while ago when the ARC first started. You had some ideas of what you thought should be done. I did too, but never put anything together. It looks like we will be seeing a new policy soon, come the hearing in March, and I wonder if it will look like anything we would have come up with….

 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

By the way, did you ever manage to put together a draft of what you thought might be the best policy for us when handling child sexual abuse?

No. The idea was more of a mess than I thought at first. It's a humbling task, and I'm not cut out for it. Through my own small attempt, I could tell that Brother Jackson must have put some real effort into the same kind of task. I'm sure you felt that too. But I also felt that something prevented him from getting too pro-active about making it comprehensive.

[TrueTomHarley]

Ann O'Maly: I am all for protocols. i have no issue with them. But not as a substitute for theocratic procedures, but as a supplement only. The congregation is not an extension of the world's social systems. This is not to say that you ignore them, and it seems that our guy is trying hard to reconcile the two. But you can't flush the Bible down the toilet just because the world has come up with a cool new idea.

I might feel differently if such outside protocols worked, but abundant evidence has been given in this thread that they do not work in the sense of making any appreciable dent in the endemic rate of child abuse.

Though it is crass, I am tempted to plug a book where an author I know well has written extensively on pedophilia, but I am afraid to do it because I am as scared of the librarian now as I was in grade school. But I hope the trick to stay in her good graces is to consistently supply value-added content - if it doesn't work, it doesn't work - and not just supply posts like that from a certain apostate who blasts us with a dozen irrelevant Bible verses and then tries to hook us into his own blog where he presumably has many more. I mean, how crass is that?

[Anna]

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

No. The idea was more of a mess than I thought at first. It's a humbling task, and I'm not cut out for it. Through my own small attempt, I could tell that Brother Jackson must have put some real effort into the same kind of task. I'm sure you felt that too. But I also felt that something prevented him from getting too pro-active about making it comprehensive.

And I didn't even try. I had exactly the same thoughts. I put some ideas down, but then saw the difficulty in implementing them because several "what if's" popped into my mind, and those "what if" scenarios scrapped that idea. I don't know if that's what you meant by humbling task, I agree, it's not as easy as some make it out it to be,  for example the "report all to relevant authorities" might make our brother's tasks easier, and will definitely curb the lawsuits,  but it will not necessarily eliminate the problem. I can think of one problem immediately; (as I am sure you can) will the knowledge that whatever disclosure regarding child sexual abuse, will immediately be made known to the authorities, prevent some from disclosing? I know for a fact it will. Social workers are obligated (in the US) to tell their clients that if the client decides to disclose things of that nature, the social worker is mandated to report to the authorities. This has prevented many from making that disclosure. Candace Conti was one of them. She only disclosed everything many years later when she filed a lawsuit against WT and the congregation. Probably at Bill Bowen's "brilliant" (not!) prompting. (She most likely ended up without a penny, and despite all the propaganda around the case, the only people who know who she is are ex-witnesses, lawyers and a few journalists. And we will most likely never hear any more from her or her lawyer, Rick Simons (who had plenty to say on You Tube prior the settlement) because NO ONE is allowed to talk about it now).

I think what prevented Jackson becoming too proactive about making it comprehensive (at least at the hearing) was that he obviously could not speak for only himself and that any decision obviously has to be made collectively with all the GB members present. Plus every single scripture pertaining to that subject, and every scriptural principle has to be carefully scrutinized. This is why I am so curious to see the outcome of the March hearing, as in 2015, the Chair (McClellan) said he expected to see some improved policies by the next hearing in 2017.....

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

hook us into his own blog where he presumably has many more.

If you are talking about Witness, then that is not his/her blog but some crazy woman's, who thinks the GB and the WT are the antichrist....

[Evacuated]

On 2/27/2017 at 3:03 PM, Ann O'Maly said:

trained professionals should handle all allegations, rather than untrained elders. Besides, when laypersons bumble in, trying to ascertain the truth of an allegation, they can (unintentionally) corrupt any evidence-gathering which, in turn, compromises the case, making it harder to successfully resolve.

Seems such bumbling is not the sole province of lay people either.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-39139893

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Anna said:

If you are talking about Witness, then that is not his/her blog but some crazy woman's, who thinks the GB and the WT are the antichrist....

I wouldn't be so sure about it not being his/her blog. I haven't read enough of it to know for sure, but Witness seems aligned with the blog on multiple lines of argument.

4 hours ago, Anna said:

She only disclosed everything many years later when she filed a lawsuit against WT and the congregation.

After the ARC's disclosure on Feb 6 about the 4,500 cases in the Catholic Church, Andrew Collins in his interview on the BBC report, said: "Royal Commission stated today that it takes an average of 33 years before a child who has been abused is ready to stand up and talk."

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bbc-newshour

Australia's Catholic Church Abuse

 

[TrueTomHarley]

We had people from Texas come into town to work on a Kingdom Hall remodel nearby and they needed a place to stay. Sight unseen, we handed them the keys to our house while we were heading away. Many people would kill for such a brotherhood where you can place such trust in total strangers.

At the Independence Day church, Mr. and Mrs. O’Maly heard of this and decided to do the same. The first guests who stayed at their house broke their TV. The second set of guests tracked mud throughout the house. The third set found the Go Packs and raided the funds set aside.  The 4^th set emptied the house completely and the O’Maly’s returned to four bare walls.

Steamed, they contacted the other Independence Day church. ‘Oh, yeah, that happened to us, too. No, they’re not congregation members – they’re imposters. But we have such a half-assed organization because that crazy Witness person insists that God loves it that way, that any scoundrel can pull the wool over our eyes in a twinkling.’

‘Besides, O’Maly hates us because we don’t handle pedophiles the right way. Stop it! she says. You’re screwing it up! Hand those perverts over to us so that WE can screw it up, like we screw up most of what is already in our laps.’

[Witness]

On 3/3/2017 at 3:56 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

and not just supply posts like that from a certain apostate who blasts us with a dozen irrelevant Bible verses and then tries to hook us into his own blog where he presumably has many more. I mean, how crass is that?

Better to rely on God’s word, than empty philosophy.

 As Col 2:8 shows, basing worship on elementary principles of this world is not according to Christ.  My attempt to list the string of scriptures was to help you see that God’s administration is a spiritual one in Christ, not having anything to do with material structure or man’s hierarchy.

“If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 

“These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.”  Col 2:20-23

Think about these words the next time you sit in a kingdom hall and an elder is reminding you of the need for more donations to support, what?  The brotherhood and their immediate needs, or is it construction?  Or could it be to cover the costs of pedophile lawsuits?  Or to make movies, support a beautiful broadcasting station and all its equipment?  

In Korea, 1994, six heads of family took out personal loans to build a kingdom hall, each one taking on the responsibility to pay off the loan.  If it wasn’t sold at some point in time by those owners, who owns that kingdom hall now?  If they successfully paid off the loan to the bank, do they continue to pay an amount to the Wt.?  For these people it has possibly become, “do not touch” as their investment has been taken from them.  How many more have been cheated in the “spiritual paradise”? 

Yet, by the scriptures I gave you, it should become evident that Warwick and every building owned by the Watchtower, have been dedicated to a God who doesn’t want anything to do with them, since they are all destined to perish.  You can find this to be true by reading the list of scriptures I presented you.

On 3/3/2017 at 1:14 PM, Anna said:

If you are talking about Witness, then that is not his/her blog but some crazy woman's, who thinks the GB and the WT are the antichrist..

Funny, someone could just ask me this instead of acting like I don't exist.  Wait, could it be because I'm disfellowshiped?

Pearl, the “crazy lady”, is an anointed one who was disfellowshiped for, among other revealing truths, some of the same topics of reasoning that many of you have here – when Christ began his reign, and 1914.  Only Pearl didn’t speak these things under wrap, but vocally to the elder body and in the same manner as Christ.  A “wicked slave” cannot tolerate any other opinion from the anointed body, but their own, (much like the Pharisees) especially one blessed with the insight of Holy Spirit.  Notice that the account of this wicked slave began “beating” his fellow slaves because of Christ’s delay in coming.  My, how that fits the history of the organization and their many failed dates.  Truly, there are 7 “crazy men” out there doing a great deal of harm to a great number of sheep.  Pearl has not hurt one human being.

I remember when going in “field service”, if a person showed no interest it was occasionally determined that they were not “sighing and crying over the detestable things”.  Some JWs even mocked them for the apathetic attitude.  These words in Ezek 9:4 addressed God’s temple sanctuary in Jerusalem, not all religions of the world.  Prophetically, their meaning is concerning spiritual “Jerusalem”, God’s anointed priesthood and sanctuary today.  As I look into the organization, the many who are sighing and crying are on their way out or have left; many are just complaining, and many more are apathetic over the “detestable things” like the particular topic here.  The apathetic ones, even the complainers seem to “like it that way” and continue to disregard the serious problems with the organization, in particular God’s sanctuary arrangement of his own appointed priesthood, where the abomination in the Temple is present – the “man of lawlessness”.  Jer 5:30,31; Matt 24:15   According to Ezek 9:4, only those with the mark on their foreheads were saved, those ones sighing and crying over all the abominations. 

^“ For behold, I am beginning to work calamity in this city which is called by My name, and shall you be completely free from punishment? You will not be free from punishment; for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth,” declares the Lord of hosts.’

“Therefore you shall prophesy against them all these words, and you shall say to them,

‘The Lord will roar from on high
And utter His voice from His holy habitation;
He will roar mightily against His fold.
He will shout like those who tread the grapes,
Against all the inhabitants of the earth.’”  Jer 25:29,30

I find it rather interesting when reading this thread how references are made to all those entities elsewhere that deal with child abuse.  (‘See, it’s not only us!’)  In light of this, shouldn’t a JW ask the question, just how encompassing is Babylon the Great?  Pedophilia and its coverup is darkness.  There is no way to make that cup shiny, even on the outside. There is no way God or Christ have anything to do with darkness.  

As far as Pearl preaching that the Watchtower is the anti-Christ, I am glad you actually visited Pearl’s site to read.  Let me give you one simple example explaining the organization as the antichrist.

“For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.”  2 John 1:7

The Greek word for “as coming” is  érchomai.  Within Strong’s definition we find:

 to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):—accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, × light, × next, pass, resort, be set.

It’s usage involving persons –“ to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning. “

Christ came to earth in the flesh, will he return at some point “in the flesh”?  The Watchtower teaches absolutely not.  As a “new creation”, both human and spirit, of course Christ will return to the earth as well as his priests and kings.  Scriptures clearly show that this will occur.

“They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:11

How much clearer can it read?  the  antichrist is..."those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh".

And He said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”  John 1:51

 “And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride (144,000) adorned for her husband. (Christ)”  Rev 21:2 (Rev 3:12; 21;10)

 I believe 7 “crazy men” have definitely ‘pulled the wool over your eyes’, and God not only wants you to know this, but to act upon it.

Who Is Your God? - http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2015/02/who-is-your-god.html

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

" and not just supply posts like that from a certain apostate who blasts us with a dozen irrelevant Bible verses and then tries to hook us into his own blog where he presumably has many more. "

I'm sorry, Witness, do you do that, too? i was thinking of someone else.

[Evacuated]

What was an interesting discussion seems to be drifting off topic and deteriorating into a sort of "flaming" excercise.

When dealing with intentionally provocative postings, Solomon's advice is worth considering before responding.

"Do not answer the stupid one according to his foolishness, so that you do not put yourself on his level.  Answer the stupid one according to his foolishness, so that he does not think he is wise." Proverbs 26:5-6

[TrueTomHarley]

We had people from Texas come into town to work on a Kingdom Hall remodel nearby and they needed a place to stay. Sight unseen, we handed them the keys to our house while we were heading away. Many people would kill for such a brotherhood where you can place such trust in total strangers.

At the Independence Day church, Mr. and Mrs. O’Maly heard of this and decided to do the same. The first guests who stayed at their house broke their TV. The second set of guests tracked mud throughout the house. The third set found the Go Packs and raided the funds set aside.  The 4^th set emptied the house completely and the O’Maly’s returned to four bare walls.

Steamed, they contacted the other Independence Day church. ‘Oh, yeah, that happened to us, too. No, they’re not congregation members – they’re imposters. But we have such a half-assed organization because that crazy Witness person insists that God loves it that way, that any scoundrel can pull the wool over our eyes in a twinkling.’

‘Besides, O’Maly hates us because we don’t handle pedophiles the right way. Stop it! she says. You’re screwing it up! Hand those perverts over to us so that WE can screw it up, like we screw up most of what is already in our laps.’

 

(sorry, Eoin. I admit, I'm not being overnice here. But we are dealing with some who HATE God's organization, which organization says it's not a great idea to be trading words with them in the first place, and this thread is demonstrating why. I will allow, though, that loyal ones have made some excellent points, perhaps spurred on in effort to shut up the scoundrels, and that your input has been among the most valuable of all.)