The Watchtower's 20-year adjustment to the standard Neo-Babylonian chronology

[scholar JW]

 JW Insider

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Why would anyone want to try something as silly as trying to disprove a negative? That would be like someone asking if you could disprove 587 BCE or disprove 586 BCE as Nebuchadnezzar's 18th or 19th year. You would look foolish to try. 

Why is that silly? Is it not the case that critics of 607 BCE make dogmatic claims that 607 BCE has been disproved by means of several lines of evidence which are claimed to prove 587 or 586 BCE? The simple fact is that it is the biblical-historical-theological fact of the Exile proves 607 BCE as the date for the Fall.

10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Exactly correct. Thanks. So it meaningless to keep bringing up his name unless one has the motive of trying to attach the label "apostate" to a rehash of research that has been around for over 100 years, completely separate from Witnesses or ex-Witnesses. 

I only discuss COJ not because of his status as a former Witness but because he has published research on this subject, made dogmatic claims and has become widely quoted as an authority on this subject.

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, scholar JW said:

WT scholars have simply fine-tuned the secular NB Chronology by means of adding 20 years made manifest by the calculation of 607 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem

I'm surprised, but you just pretty much admitted the entire schema and methodology of the Watchtower tradition. As you say, it starts by looking at the secular NB chronology, but determines that, no matter what the NB Chronology says, the fall of Jerusalem must have happened in 607 BCE (else the 1914 prediction fails). So when they see that 607 is 20 years off from the NB Chronology they merely "fine-tune" the entire NB Chronology timeline by adding 20 years. 

This is exactly correct. Thank you.

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Is it not the case that critics of 607 BCE make dogmatic claims that 607 BCE has been disproved by means of several lines of evidence which are claimed to prove 587 or 586 BCE?

What does it matter what critics say? We should focus on the evidence.

3 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

The simple fact is that it is the biblical-historical-theological fact of the Exile proves 607 BCE as the date for the Fall.

As you have shown. Making a dogmatic claim as you just did proves nothing. Just as you cannot prove that the fall didn't happen in 587 BCE. 

[JW Insider]

21 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Correct, the Bible does not give a start and end date for the Exile but does give and describes such historical events which can then be dated by a valid scheme of chronology

Thanks for admitting that. If one is looking for the date for the destruction of Jerusalem you can therefore ignore the Exile. The Bible never says it started exactly in a specific year of Nebuchadnezzar, and it never says that it ended in exactly a specific year of King Cyrus. The Watchtower claims it was not 539 when he captured Babylon, nor in 538 which was the first year of Cyrus over Babylon, but in 537, and they may have good reasons for interpreting that way. Prior Watchtowers placed Cyrus accession year in 537, and thus put his first year in 536, and used this method. If Russell had used the current Watchtower's methodology of adding several months after the beginning of that first regnal year, they would have been claiming that the Exile ended in 535 BCE. But instead they used the beginning of the first regnal year which they thought at the time was 536. From 536 they counted back 70 years and got 606 as a date for the fall of Jerusalem.

But all that is unnecessary and required interpretation instead of methodology.   

What do we have is the Bible's statement that the destruction and fall of Jerusalem was in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th or 19th year. So we can ignore the undefined 70 year exile and just use the Bible's statements. 

If you want to describe a methodology, just consider the most direct and obvious way to find the 18th and/or 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar? 

[scholar JW]

 JW Insider

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

What does it matter what critics say? We should focus on the evidence.

Agreed, WT scholars have examined all of the evidence both secular-historical-biblical and given the biblical evidence priority thus validating 607 BCE.

10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

As you have shown. Making a dogmatic claim as you just did proves nothing. Just as you cannot prove that the fall didn't happen in 587 BCE. 

Nonsense. The Exile it was the most important event in Jewish/Biblical history that any competent chronologist cannot ignore. One can disprove 587 BCE by proving 607 BCE and this is done by means of the Exile of 70 years as simple as that.

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The Exile it was the most important event in Jewish/Biblical history that any competent chronologist cannot ignore.

It may very well have been. But if you don't have the Bible to tell you the exact beginning or ending of that event, why don't you go ahead and use what the Bible DOES say? That is, find the BCE equivalent for the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar.

(2 Kings 25:8, 9) . . .In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, that is, in the 19th year of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar the king of Babylon, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard, the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem.  He burned down the house of Jehovah, the king’s house, and all the houses of Jerusalem; he also burned down the house of every prominent man. 
 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, George88 said:

However, I must emphasize that though I have no issue with 587/6 BC for valid reasons, I cannot support its association with the destruction of Jerusalem.

That's the same thing I always say about 607 BCE. I have no issue with the date at all. In fact, I think it's a fairly good date with which to start the 70 years of Jeremiah 25. It can't be more than a couple of years off. In fact, the "Isaiah's Prophecy" book pretty much indicates that the end of the 70 years of Jeremiah 25 was in 539 when Babylon's power "crumbles." That would start them in 609. But full Persian domination as a world empire might be considered to not have started until Carchemish in 605. 607 is right in the middle, so it seems like a pretty good place to start the '70 years for Babylon' as Jeremiah calls it. 

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
“These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) . . . since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. 
 

1 hour ago, George88 said:

Considering the multitude of ancient tablets that recount military triumphs, it is more sensible to follow a path guided by reason and evidence, relying on historical records and scripture.

I think it's telling that no one seems to like the direct and excellent evidence for identifying the BCE date for the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar, but would rather try to mix in the Babylonian Chronicles and various tablets that recount military triumphs. 

The Bible account makes it clear that it happened in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar.

So if you don't have a problem with it, which year(s) of Nebuchadnezzar did you think 587/6 BCE was? Which year did you think 606 BCE was?

[JW Insider]

37 minutes ago, George88 said:

Everyone, including you, continues to insist that 587 BC is a fact simply because it is generally accepted.

No. That's completely false. I'm glad you admitted that this is what you were thinking, because it's easy to correct. It's not at all because it is generally accepted. Only because 100% of the Neo-Babylonian astronomical diaries that touch upon Nebuchadnezzar's reign consistently point to 587 as Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year of reign. (19th if you include counting his accession year.) There are at least EIGHT separate references to his king years. And ALL of them indicate that 587 was his 18th year -- with no exceptions and no inconsistencies.

(Jeremiah 32:1, 2) . . .The word that came to Jeremiah from Jehovah in the 10th year of King Zed·e·kiʹah of Judah, that is, the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar. At that time the armies of the king of Babylon were besieging Jerusalem, . . .
 

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It may very well have been. But if you don't have the Bible to tell you the exact beginning or ending of that event, why don't you go ahead and use what the Bible DOES say? That is, find the BCE equivalent for the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar.

(2 Kings 25:8, 9) . . .In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, that is, in the 19th year of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar the king of Babylon, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard, the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem.  He burned down the house of Jehovah, the king’s house, and all the houses of Jerusalem; he also burned down the house of every prominent man. 
 

The Bible does give the exact date for the beginning and end of the Jewish Exile which lasted for exactly 70 years. The above cited scripture along with the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 36:11-21 along with 2 Ki. 25: 8,21. WT scholars have done just that and have determined that the BCE equivalent is indeed 607 BCE for Neb's 18/ 19th year - 2 Ki.25: 8; Jer. 52:18 inc. his acc. and regnal years.

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

4 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

The Bible does give the exact date for the beginning and end of the Jewish Exile which lasted for exactly 70 years.

Earlier you agreed that it didn't.

What exact date does it give for the beginning of the Jewish exile?

What exact date does it give for the end of the Jewish exile? 

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Thanks for admitting that. If one is looking for the date for the destruction of Jerusalem you can therefore ignore the Exile. The Bible never says it started exactly in a specific year of Nebuchadnezzar, and it never says that it ended in exactly a specific year of King Cyrus. The Watchtower claims it was not 539 when he captured Babylon, nor in 538 which was the first year of Cyrus over Babylon, but in 537, and they may have good reasons for interpreting that way. Prior Watchtowers placed Cyrus accession year in 537, and thus put his first year in 536, and used this method. If Russell had used the current Watchtower's methodology of adding several months after the beginning of that first regnal year, they would have been claiming that the Exile ended in 535 BCE. But instead they used the beginning of the first regnal year which they thought at the time was 536. From 536 they counted back 70 years and got 606 as a date for the fall of Jerusalem.

In trying to determine a modern BCE date for the Fall of Jerusalem one cannot the historical and biblical fact of the Jewish Exile of 70 years duration. The Bible gives the precise dates for its beginning and end along with its description including the experience of the Exiles whilst in captivity. The Bible states that it began in the reigns of Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and Zedekiah, King of Judah - Neb's reign, 2Ki. 36:8, Jer. 52:29; Zedekiah's reign, 2Chron 36:11, 2Ki. 24:18;25:2 thus in the BCE dating was 607 BCE for the beginning of the Exile.

Similarly, the Bible dates the precise end of the Exile by means of the first year of Cyrus - 2Chron. 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1.which has the BCE date of 537 BCE for the end of the Exile.

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But all that is unnecessary and required interpretation instead of methodology. 

A competent scholar requires both in order to construct a valid scheme of Chronology.

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

What do we have is the Bible's statement that the destruction and fall of Jerusalem was in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th or 19th year. So we can ignore the undefined 70 year exile and just use the Bible's statements. 

Do not forget that Neb's regnal data is synchronized with that of Zedekiah's 11th year thus ensuring a precise definition of the Jewish Exile of 70 years. Ignoring the defined 70 year Exile disproves not only the reliability of NB Chronology but any date based on that chronology which would include 586 and 587 BCE.

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If you want to describe a methodology, just consider the most direct and obvious way to find the 18th and/or 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar? 

The most obvious and accurate way to fix the reigns of Neb is to rely on the Bible and not the NB historical record which is falsified by the biblical account.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

24 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Earlier you agreed that it didn't.

What exact date does it give for the beginning of the Jewish exile?

What exact date does it give for the end of the Jewish exile? 

Correct. What I mean to say is that the Bible does not give such dates in a modern calendar such as BCE dating.

The Bible dates the beginning of the Exile in 607 BCE which represents Zedekiah's 11th year and Neb's 18/19th year

The Bible dates the end of the Exile in 537 BCE which represents the 1st year of Cyrus.

Now it is your turn:

What is the exact date for the beginning of the Exile?

What is the exact date for the end of the Exile?

scholar JW