ALLAH – the Moon God

[Ann O'Maly]

Likewise, I do not post on this for your benefit; I post because it's an aid for any interested readers to navigate through fact and fiction, or at least see another perspective. They can form their own conclusions.

On 2/16/2017 at 1:01 PM, Arauna said:

 Halaal food (which Muslims eat) - Halaal refers to the crescent moon too!  

 Maybe on your planet. Here on Earth, Halaal just means 'lawful' or 'permissible.'

On 2/16/2017 at 1:01 PM, Arauna said:

I also mentioned that "Al"- means "the" in arabic

You did?  I thought that was the OP and me. I must have missed it.

On 2/16/2017 at 1:01 PM, Arauna said:

... but one can get a renegade person anywhere who desperately needs to have a published study and he will come up with some far- fetched etymology of "el"  (which is Hebrew) to try to refute it.

Who in their right mind would try to claim the Hebrew noun 'el' means 'the'? 

[Arauna]

It is not coincidence that the word means permissible and also refers to the moon crescent!

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

It is not coincidence that the word means permissible and also refers to the moon crescent!

From everything I've seen on this so far, on scholarly sites, well-referenced sites, and pro-Islamic sites, it appears that this idea is merely based on a linguistic confusion from non-Muslims. I found this as the first item that came up in Google when I searched on "crescent moon Islam":

https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-new-moon-become-the-symbol-of-Islam

The hilal (Star and Crescent moon) does not, in fact represent Islam. It pre-dates Islam by about 2000 years. It appears, for instance, on the seals and decorations of the Moabites, of Israel, at about 1500BC.

In the past, it was most notably used on the flag of the Ottoman Empire - especially its navy:
 

 

So, it became emblematic of Islamic power, throughout Europe and beyond, in this period. It remains the symbol on the national flag of Turkey, for this reason.

From this, many other, largely Islamic, countries (especially many of the ones set up in the dissolution of the USSR) included the hilal in their national flags - in the same way that many European nations include the cross. It's sort-of-cultural, but not very significant. Some suggest it represents the lunar month, the period of fasting observed during Ramadan, but if does, the fact that its existence was common place throughout Arabia and across Moghul India, long before Islam, indicates that is an adoption, rather than central to that faith.

Since the 1960s, various Islamist movements have also adopted the hilal (probably because of its Ottoman connotations), and so it is often assumed to be an inherently Islamic symbol.

It is possible that there is confusion over the way its name sounds similar to 'Halal' (lawful), that many Westerners think it is in some way bound up in Islam itself.

 

This is agreed upon by sites that purport to represent the Islamic faith:

• On the Ottoman flag was the crescent moon – a symbol the Turks adopted from the city of Constantinople after conquering it. Because the crescent moon was the symbol for the Ottomans, it also became the symbol for Muslims in general for many in the West.
• It has since been adopted by some Muslim nations – finding its way onto the flags of countries as diverse as Malaysia, Pakistan and Algeria. Although some in the Muslim community reject the crescent moon because it can be seen as a pagan symbol.

 

[Arauna]

This is a good read!  

https://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

I attach a link to an an article about the connection between the moon god and Allah... and it proves that Allah is NOT Jehovah but the moon god.

Muslims teach that the bible has been changed and that Abraham started the city Mecca and Allah worship on his way to Egypt.... which is ludicrous... because Mecca only came into being AFTER 150 AD and the bible clearly shows that Abraham built an altar to JHWH before going to Egypt and he offered up on the same altar when he came back from Egypt.  Of course, Allah was around 2000 years before Christ but not as a singular deity.  Mohammad tried to distance Allah from his daughters (as indicated in the clip above) and establish The God - Al-ilia as the supreme being because it was the chief deity of his tribe.

This article quotes so many of the old respected archeologists from the 19th and 20th century (ie.Leonard Woolley) - and discusses so many of the archeological finds.....temples to the moon in Arabia!  The reasoning is sound... that Mohammad was not preaching a new god to them... they already knew this god!... However, he wanted them to leave the previous 'connections' of the moon god and all the other deities they were serving.

Islam has tried very hard to hide its connections to moon worship but one of my elderly bible students (if they are older Muslims) know of this. Modern apologists of course also try to hide this fact.  Many of the rituals etc. come from pagan worship.

Since islam originated from fertility worship of the moon it is not therefore surprising that there are many disgusting sexual practices in Islam:  They view Mohammad as the "perfect man" the "perfect example."  Here is just one of them practiced in Shiia Islam.  (

 

 

It is a well-known fact that Mohammad wore female clothes when he received some of his revelations - this was also in line with pagan worship.... it was not viewed as immoral.  There was an incident where his other wives claimed that they were not receiving their "due" and Mohammad chastised them and said that he receives his "revelations" when he is with Aisha, dressed in female clothes.  This is according to Hadith.

 

 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Islam has tried very hard to hide its connections to moon worship but one of my elderly bible students (if they are older Muslims) know of this. Modern apologists of course also try to hide this fact.  Many of the rituals etc. come from pagan worship.

15 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

So, all evidence that man claims, is inconsequential with what is written in scripture.

It's pretty obvious, as Allen has indicated, that we have to be very careful with what we call "established fact" when it's about evidence that one group claims in order to claim superiority over another group.

15 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

In analyzing the beliefs of the Harranians as reported in the literature, we must be careful to distinguish the nature of these sources. Muslim material on Harran is wildly contradictory,

I'm reminded that there are hundreds of nearly identical examples in scholarly religious discussion about the Hebrew God, Jehovah/YHWH and much of it based on artifacts and linguistic evidence. Furthermore, much of the scholarship on these sources of Biblical/Jewish/Hebrew religion is not from antagonistic sources, but the majority from Jewish and Christian sources.

The name Jehovah itself has been linked to many pagan sources. This doesn't mean it's true. There were also false gods and fables that spread throughout the Near East and apparently gave the Hebrews many of their words for things that other nations worshipped. There are connections between the festival for Esther and the moon. The Hebrew word for the Sun matches the Babylonian Sun-God. The same goes for many other words. This continues in the Greek Scriptures with words from the Greeks like Hades and Tartarus.

The sun-moon-stars motif is also found in the Bible, if Israel, and :

• (Genesis 37:9, 10) . . .“I have had another dream. This time the sun and the moon and 11 stars were bowing down to me.” Then he related it to his father as well as his brothers, and his father rebuked him and said to him: “What is the meaning of this dream of yours? Am I as well as your mother and your brothers really going to come and bow down to the earth to you?”

That doesn't mean that the Jews were steeped in Moon worship. Yet, some people think that this motif (where the sun, moon and stars represented Israel) is reflected in Jesus prophecy about the destruction of the Jewish system of things, when Jerusalem was to be destroyed in 70 C.E., and again when Revelation speaks of Jesus as having been born out of the nation of Israel as heir to Messianic kingship:

• (Matthew 24:29) . . ., the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven. . .
• (Revelation 6:12, 13) . . .and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. [the fig tree was a symbol Jesus had used for Israel]
• (Revelation 12:1, 2) . . .A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, and she was pregnant. And she was crying out in her pains and in her agony to give birth. [compare the Genesis quote above about 11 stars instead of 12]

And while there are suppositions about how the sources of Muslim culture and practice are related to fertility, Jehovah is depicted in our own Bible as demanding one of the most significant fertility rites of all. Jehovah was the one who said that the rite of circumcision was directly related to fertility and nothing else. (Genesis 17:1-9)

Also, we have to be careful about assigning the same value to various hadith and oral traditions to the entire Muslim faith. Some of the Muslim fundamentalist cults (like the entire country of Saudi Arabia) select certain of these traditions and give these portions the same weight of the Koran. Most Muslim scholars reject this practice, even if the hadith supposedly says something true about Muhammad himself.

Remember that we also reject much of the "Bible" writings that Catholicism accepts. We call it apocryphal and don't include it in the Bible. The Jews have a huge body of oral traditions, too. And it's embarrassing to read these Jewish writings and find highly respected rabbis discussing whether whether the Bible indicates that it's OK to have sex with a child at age 3, or whether they should wait until age 8 or 9.

[Ann O'Maly]

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is a good read!  

https://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

I attach a link to an an article about the connection between the moon god and Allah... and it proves that Allah is NOT Jehovah but the moon god.

Umm ... this is what Kurt opened this thread with. We've just been discussing some of its claims! 

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Islam has tried very hard to hide its connections to moon worship

To hide a connection, you first have to establish a connection. A connection between Allah-worship and moon-god-worship has not been established. Therefore, there is no connection to hide.

 

As an aside, Allen mentioned Dagan and an alleged identification as a fish-god. A reputable academic summary on Dagan is at http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/listofdeities/dagan/index.html. Please note: "A 4th century AD tradition which places Dagan as a fish deity is erroneous (Black and Green 1998: 56)."

[Arauna]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_(mythology)  - Sumerian moon god that spread through the entire middle east.

This is from the time of Nimrod - BEFORE Abraham and before Israel became a nation.  Hence the name 'Sin'ai (in Arabia -when Israel came out of Egypt as a nation).   1500 years later we see Nabonidus  (Nebuchadnezzar's grandson) building a temple to the moon god in Arabia - so moon worship was still as strong and insidious as ever!  As I said before - the body of archeology from the Sumerian and Babylonian time is huge and cannot be denied -  the worship dispersed as far as Greece. Each area developed their own version of the same god.

I read your contributions above and you guys carry on like you are scholars arguing back and forth (cherry picking the ideas you like) and not giving any clarity to anyone! ... the reason being is that you are keeping the Bible out of it and just debating for sake of debating..

As I said before in this forum - when Nimrod and his family turned away from Jehovah they had to fill the void and started a system of spiritism which turned to predictions and superstition inspired by Satan.  There were seven planets in out Solar system clearly visible to them (moon & sun) and the billions of stars.  Ancient Babylon mathematics became so advanced because they originated the Zodiac and the gods developed from the worship of moon, sun, planets and the zodiac - stars.  Moon, sun and star worship was everywhere and they did all their predictions on the movement of the planets.  Hence we find that most temples/ placement of stones/ high places etc.  in ancient Egypt and (over the world) were designed to favor the stars at certain times of the year /equinoxes etc-  read up about the pyramids all over the world!

This is what the high religious class did all the time - watch the 'heavens' and they wanted to be close to the "heavens' with their high buildings to predict when the king could go to war and when he could blow his nose.  This made for a very superstitious society and 'spells' and all kinds of nasty things related to spiritism.

I come from Africa - I know what spiritism looks like - it is nasty and one can be 'educated' but the practice of this keeps one hooked onto needless 'rituals and fears' - as all these religions were.  Many of these western scholars  make me laugh when they come up with their silly ideas sometimes.  They live in secluded little worlds and become big frogs in small ponds (academics) but have not seen the real thing!  Especially when they start going into denial of what their eyes see because they want it to be different and make a name for themselves.

Study ancient Sumerian culture (the predecessor to Babylonian, Assyrian, Arabian, Indian and even Egyptian belief systems) most of the worlds religions originated there!  Each scholar studies their little pocket of history and do not see the big picture.

Most of all - study the Bible!   I studied the Bible from the aspect of "intrinsic logic" and a whole new world opened up to me!   The name of Jehovah -  a name he chose for himself - was for a specific reason!   All other gods were given their name by humans but Jehovah chose his name himself because it had a specific meaning - it is not just a name!

"I am what I am"  - this translation is a travesty!  Because in all Semitic languages it is already accepted  that you exist. One does not get the word "is" in present tense in these languages!     So when the word "is" is used, it is usually in past tense "was" or in future it is "causative".    So the verb related to his name shows that "he shall prove to be" - by his causative actions! 

Some brilliant person just by chance stumbled on this name? or by chance it developed by a group of people from  a few letters someone started to use?  ... and other people said .... he has a good idea ... let ALL of us start using these letters too?  .... Really?  You believe this "research?" 

Well real life is not like that.  After Israel had been through so many miracles  (saved by Jehovah in Egypt) their uncircumcised hearts were stupidly going back to what they knew before - and we have proof in the Bible that Jehovah had to chastise them harshly, on several occasions, even by death (when they kept on going back to their own gods or rebelled) to get them to obey him to be forged into a single nation and only serving only HIM.  (Those who died are in sheol - so they probably will get a resurrection).  

At the time Jehovah intervened in mankind's affairs to bring forth part of his purpose - to create a nation, clean and dedicated to him for his son to be born in future and provide a genealogy of 4025 years (from Adam to Jesus) - so He had to deal with the constant rebellion of the Israelites - and not tolerate rebellion when it went past a certain level.  This is how they became a nation dedicated to him and his name.   It took a lot of effort from Jehovah to guide and chastise them to take this name as the only god - even after they had seen the fire cloud by night and many miracles!

So I take exception to those saying that Jehovah's name came from "evolution " of letters or other names!

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

On 2/25/2017 at 2:13 AM, Arauna said:

Many of these western scholars  make me laugh when they come up with their silly ideas sometimes.  They live in secluded little worlds and become big frogs in small ponds (academics) but have not seen the real thing!  Especially when they start going into denial of what their eyes see because they want it to be different and make a name for themselves.

This sounds like an excellent description of the "scholarship" of Alexander Hislop, and a lot of other sloppy scholars who rely on him and people like him. Recently I quoted a person who had based his books on Hislop's "scholarship" and was making money off of it (The Two Babylons). After years of additional research, he realized it was "fake news" and rejected it, even though it meant a loss of money and fame for himself. He received all kinds of accusations, almost the equivalent of death threats just because he could no longer use fake scholarship in good conscience.

The Watch Tower also stopped using his fake scholarship many years ago, but it is still popular on the Internet because it fits what a lot of people want to believe.

On 2/25/2017 at 2:13 AM, Arauna said:

You believe this "research?"

All I am saying is that we need to be very careful before accepting so-called research just because it fits preconceived ideas or appears to be partly true. If you are referring to research that Allen quoted, you should know that in the past he has quoted much research that he later claimed he did not believe in or which turned out not to be supportive of the idea he apparently thought it was defending. 

 

On 2/24/2017 at 9:47 PM, AllenSmith said:

Yahweh is given the titles ’ēl or ba‘al, or is called “the Sun,” or is attributed their features. The word addition may also be applied to the incorporation of distinctly different attributes within Yahweh. Both solar and storm language are attributed to Yahweh in different passages and even within the same units. Similarly, Yahweh embodies both male and female, both El and Asherah.

I don't think that Allen is really saying he believes that Yahweh as a name is associated with the Sun (Shemesh is sun in Hebrew and Shamash is the name of the Mesopotamian/Babylonian Sun god.) Nor is the name itself applied in order to embody both male and female traits, as Allen quoted above. Perhaps Allen was quoting this portion for additional context. But either way, it shows what I was saying before: that we need to be very careful in our acceptance of scholarship and research.

Almost every bit of "research" that has been claimed of Muslim religion has a similar scholarly corollary in the way research shows us that Hebrew religion was practiced. Monotheism was a difficult thing for ancient peoples. Egypt tried it for a while too, and reverted. Jehovah blessed Israel as a holy nation to the extent that they maintained monotheism in his name.

Linguistically, there appears to be more evidence that the Arabic "allah" is from "al-ilah" (the God) -- also see, Aramaic "ʼĔlāhā", and Hebrew "Eloah" (70 times in the Bible). "Eloah" is used the same as the same as Aramaic "Elah." And "ilah" (Arabic for god or God) is traceable, therefore, to the same word for God found in the Aramaic portions of Daniel. When Hebrew puts the word "the" in front of it, it implies "the only true God." (Psalm 18:32, for example) This is exactly the purpose of Arabic putting the word "the" in front of it so that "al-ilah" means the only true God. The contracting of "Al-ilah" to "Allah" is a very common form of contraction that happens with other similar words. Words, over time, are contracted very similarly in Hebrew and English, too, of course.

Christian Arabs today have no other word for God but Allah. What word does the Arabic Watchtower use for God? Before Islam even existed, Arab-speaking Christians used the word "Allah" as the word for God -- for 500 years before Muhammad was born.

 

[Arauna]

I say " ilah" when I speak about god but it has become common among Christian Arabs to use Al Lah - which actually means "
the god" and has become so common everywhere.    It is almost as though it has become a higher form when speaking about god.  The reason why Arab Christians use Allah is because they deny the name of Jehovah - which is sad.  Sometimes it is harder to speak to them than to Muslims because they love their idol worship and will tell you directly that they want nothing to do with you because JWs do not worship Mary.  They see Mary as interceding for women and Jesus as interceding for men..  I was flabbergasted when I had a long discussion with a very religious Greek orthodox man and I gave him a good chance to explain to me where Mary fits in in his church!

I try to avoid Muslims greetings and stick to marxaba / aHlan was Sahlan instead of Salaam Alaykum and should consciously only stick to Jehwah Ilah (Jehovah God).  I also do not use the word Isa for Jesus but use Jeshua because Isa is a character who will come back and bow to Mohammad after he has fought the one-eyed jew - the antichrist (Dajjal) and his Jewish followers in battle.    

 

[JW Insider]

15 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Sometimes it is harder to speak to them than to Muslims because they love their idol worship and will tell you directly that they want nothing to do with you because JWs do not worship Mary.  They see Mary as interceding for women and Jesus as interceding for men..  I was flabbergasted when I had a long discussion with a very religious Greek orthodox man and I gave him a good chance to explain to me where Mary fits in in his church!

That's interesting. I read recently that a lot of Muslims are confused about the Christian God because they think he that he is supposed to be a Trinity of the "Father, Son and Mary" and that this has made Muslims think of "Allah" as a kind of name for God that distinguishes Allah from the Christian God. Therefore, on the Muslim side of this equation, several of them have this exact same argument, some saying that Allah just means "the true God" therefore the same as the Abrahamic "God" of the Jews, and others insisting that it must be a different, or even higher name for God. Some have even shown concern for the plural "elohim" in Hebrew, and of course, all of them reject the plural "Trinity" in nominal Christianity.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I say " ilah" when I speak about god but it has become common among Christian Arabs to use Al Lah - which actually means "
the god" and has become so common everywhere.    It is almost as though it has become a higher form when speaking about god.  The reason why Arab Christians use Allah is because they deny the name of Jehovah - which is sad.  Sometimes it is harder to speak to them than to Muslims because they love their idol worship and will tell you directly that they want nothing to do with you because JWs do not worship Mary.  They see Mary as interceding for women and Jesus as interceding for men..  I was flabbergasted when I had a long discussion with a very religious Greek orthodox man and I gave him a good chance to explain to me where Mary fits in in his church!

I try to avoid Muslims greetings and stick to marxaba / aHlan was Sahlan instead of Salaam Alaykum and should consciously only stick to Jehwah Ilah (Jehovah God).  I also do not use the word Isa for Jesus but use Jeshua because Isa is a character who will come back and bow to Mohammad after he has fought the one-eyed jew - the antichrist (Dajjal) and his Jewish followers in battle.    

 

Interesting.

I had an uncle who was a Christian Arab, but I never knew what he believed as I was only little at time.

[Arauna]

Catholics give a high place to Mary but the Greek orthodox much more!