Patiently waiting for Truth

As I can no longer be bothered to be drawn into the problem you have with yourself, I'll just let it go. You seem to have the same problem as many on here. You are a 'physical man' not a 'spiritual man'. You lack faith in the things you cannot see. And you are still part of this world, just like Tom and Aurana. Still talking politics. 11 pm in England. Goodnight

Do tell us in detail, Tom, about this 'online hate campaign against Jehovah's Witnesses'. Oh you did and what a rambling of an old Elder that all is. What utter rubbish and excuses for an Organisation that is full of Child Sexual Abuse EARTHWIDE. Tom brings into it everything but the kitchen sink, in an endeavour to hide the real reasons that people dislike the JW Org. Dear old Tom, you fail to hide the truth about JW Org and its GB and Lawyers. Even other JWs on this forum have found fault with your GB and the Org. But you and Aurana seem to be the only two that are totally blind to the truth. And the saying goes, 'There are none so blind as those that don't want to see'. The problem with Tom's argument / ideas, is that Tom 'lumps' everyone together. All JWs are individuals but all people that find fault with the GB and the JW Org are all the same, all one group, according to Tom. They must be all in one group because Tom calls it an 'online hate campaign'. campaign :- a series of military operations intended to achieve a goal, confined to a particular area, or involving a specified type of fighting. work in an organized and active way towards a particular goal, typically a political or social one. So, Tom thinks that all people that disagree with the GB and the running of JW Org, people all around the earth, are all working together. Um food for thought there Tom. Because Tom doesn't think it would be possible to have an inspired Anointed body of men from all around the earth, working together, as the Governing Body... But Tom does think it is possible to have all anti witnesses from all around the earth, working together, to from a campaign. Now that would look as if Tom has more faith in the devil's world than in Almighty God's power through Christ. What i suggest Tom is that you try harder to be a 'Spiritual man' rather than a 'Physical man'..

Yes there is a crazy imbalance of law and treatment of those breaking the law Whilst I think it is horrendous that any person should be tortured for any reason, i have more sympathy / empathy with victims of CSA than i do for those who suffer for the sake of an Organisation. However I presume in Russia etc it is actual religious persecution, whereas in the other instances it is not. But many religions in may places have suffered persecution so the activities in Russia etc does not prove the JW Org is 'serving God properly'.

Yes there seems to be a very fine line between worshipping God through Jesus Christ, or, worshipping Jesus himself. If all authority was given to Jesus Christ (as Jesus said) then it would seem that all Christians also belong to Jesus Christ until the time when Jesus Christ hands all things back to his Father. But, in my opinion, the Greek Scriptures were written to the Anointed and not to the earthly class. So those of the Anointed being the Body of Christ, belong to Christ in a much closer way. I still ponder on the scripture at Matthew 28 v 19, though, where Jesus says :- baptizing themp in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit But in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation, it says. baptising them INTO the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit. I still think the meaning is different because i still think it is speaking about the Anointed. But who am I to judge. I am not inspired of holy spirit, nor am I of the Anointed.

What a load of bunkum. It seems that JTR Jr is looking for a way to gain peace of mind desperately, from any one he can. Does James worry that he is still American and that America goes to war and murders people ? ANY true Christian that is trying to serve God properly, is no longer 'part of this world'. So they are no longer of an earthly nationality. If they serve God properly they are part of God's Kingdom. So WAR IS MURDER if you are a true Christian. We as Christians are not under the Mosaic Law so why even consider it ? The Nation of Israel existed for a few purposes, but mainly to 'produce' Jesus. God wanted that nation to survive but the Nation turned against God, killing Jesus, so God had that Nation destroyed. But none of that relates to the true Christian personality of today. Where is the spirituality on this forum ? Where is the Faith ? Where is the Love ? The same in the JW Org and Watchtower society, no Faith, no Love, and no SPIRITUAL MEN. Quote " using what I had understood from the December 22, 1978 AWAKE!, which I had forgotten where I learned it, many years ago, it shows that Jehovah God does not consider, and never has considered warfare to be murder. " WRONG. What it shows is that MEN who are NOT INSPIRED, have written such. It proves nothing only that you are prepared to rely on the word of MEN. James you seem to have an agenda. But you seem to have made your decision even before you asked any questions. Where is your Wisdom ? This bit is almost funny Quote " Christians are alerted to the fact that murders issue from a bad heart. " And are you saying that WAR doesn't issue from a bad heart ? Wars begin with hate, greed, dishonesty, love of power, love of self, and possibly love of murder.

@Witness A million questions. I'm not saying I will believe all you say, but I need to know where you are coming from. So please tell me what you personally believe, from your own thoughts. But what then ? No earthly organisation ? Or will Yahweh form another organisation here on Earth ? Do you believe in Armageddon ? Or a Judgement day ? The scriptures say God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth. Do you believe in a heavenly class and an earthly class ? God's intention was for mankind to live perfectly here on Earth. Surely God intends to follow through with that ? It's easy to destroy and I agree the GB have to go, and of course the Elders need to lose the power they have over the Anointed. But how do we get to know who the true Anointed are ? And will the true Anointed run an earthly organisation ? I know that we will be judged individually by our personal service to God and our love of God, and I know all this must be done through Jesus Christ. But, are we to be united as an earth wide organisation or are we to be serving God as individuals. I think the 'world' as it is has a few years to go yet. Yes it's bad but people are still surviving, enough to carry through into a 'new world' system. But I think God wants to have an earthly organisation that is clean and serious about worshipping Him, before He brings the Judgement. I also think it will take at least a couple of years to really, either sort of the JW Org, or to bring it to a close. Court cases and government proceedings take so long. All religions could be made illegal by then. But isn't the 'true' religion supposed to out live all other religions ? I think what is lacking both on here and in the world of religion, is SPIRITUAL THINKING. People still want a 'sign'. JW Org keeps offering 'false signs'. And the CSA is but one problem of many.

I mean, I can imagine 4Jah saying, “oh dear, it looks like TTH knows something besides jw.org bible,” but why CC would have anything to say...... Ah @TrueTomHarley Even when you are not talking about your GB and it's Org, you still miss me Thank you for thinking of me. It warms my heart. I know nothing about our politicians 'this side of the pond' and have no interest in it at all, but I can understand that you guys talking politics gives you a break from discussing the rights and wrongs of how to serve God properly. We all need a break from being too serious all the time. Have fun

Cesar Chavez was an American labor leader, community organizer, and Latino American civil rights activist. Is this Billy the Kid ? He seems to love himself in the same way. Don't suppose we could get back on topic maybe ?

Oh @Arauna you are quite tiresome. Same old same old indeed. You going on about OCD again and pretending that JWs are more decent than those that are not JWs. But I can understand why JWs need a closed club of course. Somewhere to rest and hide. Somewhere to upbuild one another. Whether the upbuilding is of truth or lies matters not in the closed club, as long as it upbuilds. A bit like illegal drugs giving a high. And yes I agree that 'out here' it is like a battlefield. But the whole of JW Org is just like other religions, all being part of the world, so it will continue to be a battlefield. As for civility, I will give it up in exchange for truth.

@JW Insider Thank you for that in depth truthful comment

https://spesial.fvn.no/i/xRWkJp/index_desktop.html http://www.silentlambs.org/SwedenResponse.htm Um, Sweden and Norway, I wonder who paid the Ministry of Culture to 'conclude' such things ? Have a scroll down on those links for the truth about JW Org Sweden and Norway.

Oh dear not using that old OCD again are you @Arauna and I think Tom is saying He is all of those fake names. Quote @Arauna JWs have to stay decent while others can use dirty tactics. Your GB and their lawyers do not 'stay decent', the JWs committing CSA are not decent, and I thought the GB had given their permission to all JWs to tell lies. AS @TrueTomHarley would say 'keep up'

Mark 6 v 39 through 41 But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one who will do a powerful work on the basis of my name who will quickly be able to say anything bad about me. 40 For whoever is not against us is for us. 41 And whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward. Luke 9 v 49 & 50 In response John said: “Instructor, we saw someone expelling demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he is not following with us.”*u 50 But Jesus said to him: “Do not try to prevent him, for whoever is not against you is for you.” The GB and it's Org try to say that anyone not a baptised JW will not survive Armageddon. I think the scriptures above (from their own Bible) say differently. Although they do try to prevent people by saying people are apostate etc. What GB member GJ said is a complete contradiction to what else the GB say. They say that THEY (those 8 men) are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. They say that God and Jesus Christ trusts THEM. But (as tom will keep reminding everyone) I still believe that a True Anointed are 'out there somewhere' and they will do God's will through Christ in the near future.

I just want to put a few quote togethr here. Quote @TrueTomHarley " so that if you actually kept up and immersed yourself in scripture and what had been published for the general congregation " Quite myself "Well if a person immersed themselves in scripture they would soon find how the GB and the JW Org misuse scripture to suit their own agenda. " And myself again "but the problems come from those that are in complete control. The GB / Lawyers, then down from the hierarchy ranks to the Circuit Overseers and Elders. None of them seem to question anything. They seem to act like zombies or robots. " Now JWI :- Quote @JW Insider " 4Jah2me has just reminded us of the mistake Rutherford made about "superior authorities" which was not corrected back to Russell's view until the 1960's. And it made me think that hundreds of brothers, like branch overseers, district overseers, circuit overseers, and elders (whether anointed or not) could easily have known that the teaching was wrong. It seems impossible that any Witness anywhere could read the Bible and not see that this was a mistake. But none of these persons, evidently, had the idea that it would be OK to mention the need to correct this doctrine " I'll leave it to you to have your own views here. I've proven my point.

Oh CC what big lies you tell. Quote "In my experience .... " Well it just proves you don't have much experience then doesn't it, or that you just tell lies because the GB say its ok to tell lies. Quote "What you are claiming here is nothing more than ex-witness propaganda.." That was the same excuse that the GB used about Child Sexual Abuse. Quote "First and foremost, every true witness is loyal to God not Elders, or the GB" If a person is loyal to God they would not be a JW at this present time. What does truth have to do with lies, or morality with immorality. You cannot serve two masters. Quote "and since the GB are a central body of spiritual men that give spiritual direction, .." Um, how can the GB give spiritual direction as they are not inspired or guided by God or Christ ? Stupidity such as the 'Overlapping generations' proves it. And more seriously the 'Two witness rule' for Child Sexual Abuse. Quote " to follow that spiritual direction unless someone can show just cause biblically there is an error in scriptural application." I just have, twice. I do fully understand that many 'boots on the ground' congregants can be lovely people, and may even have the best intentions. I do not think all JWs are paedophiles or criminals or actually bad people, but the problems come from those that are in complete control. The GB / Lawyers, then down from the hierarchy ranks to the Circuit Overseers and Elders. None of them seem to question anything. They seem to act like zombies or robots. I think its mainly because of fear of losing position, power, rank, family and friends. And the boots on the ground congregants can only eat what they are fed from the JW table. Because its all they know.

James I think you must be bored. " no nation on Earth considers warfare to be the same as premeditated murder, either .... " But every nation ON the Earth is 'part of this world' that belongs to the Devil. So why would a Christian even care about the nation's viewpoint. The nation's viewpoint is the Devil's viewpoint. That is why there is so much war. Are you concerned because America was built on mass murder. Well the British Empire was also built on mass murder too. BUT if we are Christians WE are no part of that world... So, Jesus said 'Love your neighbour as yourself'. Neither God nor Christ gives us permission to kill or murder anyone. No matter what the 'world' says is right. But when the Judgement arrives then God / Christ and the angels, will carry out ' premeditated killing of humans '. They have the right to do so, we do not. They know how to judge, we do not.

" Quote every single line of it, (the Shepherd the Flock book ) if you like, and it will simply show a people taking the lead who are determined to follow scripture in doing so. What it shows is 'a people' (Elders ) taking orders from 8 men in America, of whom none are inspired of Holy Spirit. Therefore none of them truly understand the meanings of the scriptures at all. This is clearly shown by the Two Witness rule, by the no blood/ blood fractions rule, by the accusation of fornication toward brothers and sisters that are just friends. By the shunning rules, the false reasons for disfellowshipping, the list is never ending. " so that if you actually kept up and immersed yourself in scripture and what had been published for the general congregation " Well if a person immersed themselves in scripture they would soon find how the GB and the JW Org misuse scripture to suit their own agenda. 'This Generation' comes to mind, and 'Superior Authorities' in the past. But if a person 'kept up' with 'what had been published for the general congregation', all they would get is more of the same falsehood, lies, mistakes, which the GB admit to. ( not inspired so may err ) . So, trying to play the Shepherding book down doesn't cut it. It just proves you are a company man Tom.

BUT all JWs are supposed to be equal. No clergy class or all clergy class . All brothers. No hierarchy. And it's supposed to be 'the truth'. So why would you need hidden information ? After all its not supposed to be an organisation of the world is it ? But remember Tom the whole Elders book is available to read online so we know it is a 'smoking gun'.

Because you have made an untrue statement pretending it is a question, and people are not being drawn into it.

Thank you for this information. I'll have to write it all down and keep it by my computer.

Modern society seems so quick to want to muzzle people. No tolerance of different ideologies...............I started off believing in "Free Speech".. There is a line.... it just seems like the world has moved that line way too close to embracing "Big Brother" mentality He must be talking about JW Org here

@JW Insider I haven't a clue how to work out the references such as g93 4/8 p. 31 I presume the end bit, p 31 is a page number, but the rest of it means nothing to me. Is it possible to get a complete list of reference letters and numbers and their meanings ?

Quote @TrueTomHarley " I will say, however—and this is only for 4Jah’s consumption—that after I served as a congregation elder I was whisked away to Bethel where I am now such a high-up secretive honcho that even the Bethelites you see on TV do not know me. They sense my presence, of course, at times the force is quite strong, but they can’t quite identify me in my deep state top assignment." Why does Elder Tom find this necessary ? I find it funny of course. Funny that he is so 'concerned' about me. BUT, if anyone cannnot see why Tom needs to keep doing this then you are blind.

If you truly believe that war is ok with God then I think you have a problem with your way of thinking. What God allows and what God likes / agrees with, are probably two totally different things. We know that God does not involve Himself in the daily running of the world. The 'world' belongs to the Devil and God has no interest in 'putting little bits of it right'. You say that God "has no objection to them .... executing wrongdoers" Do you have proof of that ? Quote "People generally misinterpret the scripture that say " Thou shalt not kill." where the scripture more actually says "Thou shalt not murder". " Quote " A sovereign government, executing a wrongdoer is implementing the political will of that government ... " Then that same government that conscripts people into the armed forces is doing likewise. But I presume your disagree with conscription ? I think the idea of being a Christian in one sense, is that we take Bible truth and learn from it. By doing so we try to live by Bible principles. One such principle is. ‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’s 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbour as yourself. Jesus here quoted from the LAW given to Moses. But as Christians we should live by the principles of that law. ‘You must love your neighbour as yourself. So, you must decide who your neighbour is James ? Could you be loving your neighbour if you were deliberately entering their land with intention of killing them ? Stop being American James. If you are a true servant of God then you are no longer American. Jesus said His Kingdom was no part of this world. So James, just a kind suggestion, stop being part of this world.

I don't think Jesus was talking to 'us'. I think Jesus was only talking to the Anointed. That is why I think a True Anointed remnant will appear soon. The Anointed know who they are, but how ? Because they are anointed with God's Holy Spirit. The GB, by their actions have proved not to be truly anointed. I am of the opinion that this 'world' will continue for at least another 10 years, because an earthly Organisation has to be in place that is totally different from the rest of the 'world'. God's Organisation has to be pure and clean. It seems to me that no one has real faith anymore. Even JWs seem to doubt the power of God and Christ. JWs seem quite happy to be in an immoral organisation, just because they say it is less immoral than others. @Kosonen You wrote that " Maybe that is why Jesus exaggerated a little bit saying that we would get what ever we ask if we really believe? " I don't think Jesus exaggerated. I think the Anointed lack faith in Jesus' words.