God's Kingdom Rules

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, ThePraeceptor said:

I more inclined to think it as a form of "I don't want to die" thing and not so as a sign of arrogance per se.

Maybe. But I have to wonder why a person would "stick their neck out" sometimes with an actual "month" and "year" or even attempt to pinpoint a specific day such as October 1, 1914 or "the fourth day of the seventh [Jewish] month of 1874" or "Passover 1878" or even as John Aquila Brown was quoted earlier:

"We have seen also, in deciding on the other chronological periods, that many proofs point out the year 1844 as a remarkable crisis. . . . I submit therefore as a memorable circumstance, that the 49th jubilee year, reckoning from the rise of the Babylonic monarchy, or the period of Nebuchadnezzar's ascending that throne . . . would take place January 1, 1845. . . . the commencement of an everlasting jubilee. . .  I conclude, therefore . . . from the rise of the four monarchies . . . to their final dissolution, there will be . . . 2520 years . . . and will terminate January 1, 1917." (p. 152)

This seems a bit arrogant when Jesus & Paul said:

(Acts 1:7) . . .“It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.

(1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.

It is difficult to understand how someone can make a prediction without taking into account Jesus' words, and yet it becomes possible to rationalize, in spite of Jesus' words:

*** w68 8/15 pp. 500-501 pars. 35-36 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the “day and hour”!
36 Even if one cannot see beyond 1975, is this any reason to be less active? The apostles could not see even this far; they knew nothing about 1975.

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Is this actually a true statement in the light of Peter's words at 2Pet 3:12, or would it be more appropriately applied to those he describes at 2Pet.3:3-4?

2 Peter is especially comparing two different groups:

1. those who are keeping that day close in mind by preparing for the parousia by growing into the type of person they ought to be when that day arrives and appreciating that it will occur as a surprise at any time whether today or 1,000 years from now.

2. those who continue to live as they desire because it appears to them that parousia is never going to happen due to the delay of their expectations.

I was referring to persons who actually attempt a chronological prediction instead of humbly accepting that Jehovah may have his own timetable that does not belong to us. In fact, even from 2 Peter, it is still difficult to come to any other conclusion outside of arrogance and presumptuousness as the reasons that anyone would ignore the idea that, chronologically speaking, it will come as a surprise.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But I have to wonder why a person would "stick their neck out"

I have a theory about that.

The ones taking the lead are in a way the "watchers on the wall" in a way similar of the guards on the watchtowers of ancient cities. When you are looking on the horizon for something or looking forward to something feverishly you can mistake something else for the one thing you want/expect to see. I'm sure in ancient times the guards on the wall would have been victims of some form of pareidolia especially during the transition from night into day.

Now, if we take that analogy to the spiritual matters and add that the light progresssively becomes brighter then I would be surprised if there were not any failed predictions. After all we are all imperfect human beings prone to mistakes and yes, even arrogance if you want.

[JW Insider]

23 minutes ago, ThePraeceptor said:

The ones taking the lead are in a way the "watchers on the wall" in a way similar of the guards on the watchtowers of ancient cities. When you are looking for something or looking forward to something feverishly you can mistake somtething else for the one thing you want/expect to see. I'm sure in ancient times the guards on the wall would have been victims of some form of pareidolia especially during the transition from night into day.

Of course. And I think that many of us have used this very reasoning by way of explanation for past (and even current) Watchtower predictions. But Jesus specifically said to "keep on the watch" because we cannot know the chronology in advance. The "contradiction" is summed up in the words from a recent Watchtower indicated by the words: "On the other hand" at the beginning of paragraph 8 below:

*** w15 8/15 pp. 15-16 pars. 7-8 Keep in Expectation! ***
However, Jesus said that most people would take “no note” of his presence, carrying on with life’s normal activities until it is too late. (Read Matthew 24:37-39.) Thus, the Scriptures indicate that world conditions during the last days would not become so extreme that people would be forced to believe that the end is near.—Luke 17:20; 2 Pet. 3:3, 4.
⁸On the other hand, for the composite sign to serve its purpose, the fulfillment of it would have to be obvious enough to command the attention of those who have been obeying Jesus’ counsel to “keep on the watch.” (Matt. 24:27, 42) And that has been the case since 1914.

Jesus' illustrations at the end of Matthew chapter 24 and into chapter 25 match what 2 Peter says about how we should "keep on the watch." It's about watching the sort of person we ought to be. That's how we prepare and keep it close in mind.

On the other hand Jesus' apostles had asked Jesus what they should watch out for in order to be able to predict the time: When will these things happen to Jerusalem's Temple and buildings?

The very first thing Jesus said was "Do not be misled!" He didn't say it's inevitable that you will be misled out of feverish expectation. He gave them very specific instructions NOT to watch for signs of the time. Yes, the Temple would fall in their own generation, but whether early or late in that generation, he wouldn't say, and said he didn't know himself, anyway! He warned them specifically about watching out for signs that are related to great wars, or great earthquakes or great famines, pestilences, etc.

Yet, every single generation since Jesus said these words tries to find signs of the times in wars, earthquakes, pestilences, famines, etc.

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The very first thing Jesus said was "Do not be misled!" He didn't say it's inevitable that you will be misled out of feverish expectation. He gave them very specific instructions NOT to watch for signs of the time.

Extremely good point!

9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

It's about watching the sort of person we ought to be

Yes but not exactly. The first meaning conveyed is to "watch out" for external factors (events etc) and the "waching out" for internal factors (faith, tendencies, personality, qualities etc) is implied or secondary. This is linguisticaly speaking.

9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

And I think that many of us have used this very reasoning

Good to know!

9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Yet, every single generation since Jesus said these words tries to find signs of the times in wars, earthquakes, pestilences, famines, etc.

100% with you on this one!

[JW Insider]

19 minutes ago, ThePraeceptor said:

Yes but not exactly. The first meaning conveyd is to "watch out" for external factors (events etc)

You might be right, but if we pressed the point, then Jesus was saying to watch out for external factors (events etc) only so that we can remind ourselves and others not to be fooled into thinking they are part of a composite sign.

If we read Matthew 24 and 25 a few times, it's easier to get the impression that there is no composite sign. That might have been the most important theme of Matthew 24: that you would see these things, and might easily be fooled into thinking they were some kind of composite sign. So falling into that trap was one of the very things to watch out for.

The disciples could only have been been asking for a chance to know in advance about the time of this great judgment (with the assumption that this judgment was the final parousia event). So Jesus had to remind them that if they heard about a great war, not to be misled into thinking it was a sign, because wars would happen, but the end is not yet. They could expect to see a lot of things happen in this generation, but not one of those things was a sign of the time.

So perhaps Jesus gave the illustration of the foolish and wise virgins and the illustration of the wicked and wise slave as a way to show that the primary thing to watch for was what sort of persons they ought to be. They should watch out that they are always prepared and neither impatient nor taking advantage of the delay. This is surely what Paul means when he says:

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:4-24) 4 But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves, 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness. 6 So, then, let us not sleep on as the rest do, but let us stay awake and keep our senses. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But as for us who belong to the day, let us keep our senses and put on the breastplate of faith and love and the hope of salvation as a helmet 9 because God assigned us, not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us, so that whether we stay awake or are asleep, we should live together with him. 11 Therefore, keep encouraging one another and building one another up, just as you are in fact doing. 12 Now we request you, brothers, to show respect for those who are working hard among you and presiding over you in the Lord and admonishing you; 13 and to give them extraordinary consideration in love because of their work. Be peaceable with one another. 14 On the other hand, we urge you, brothers, to warn the disorderly, speak consolingly to those who are depressed, support the weak, be patient toward all. 15 See that no one repays injury for injury to anyone, but always pursue what is good toward one another and to all others. 16 Always be rejoicing. 17 Pray constantly. 18 Give thanks for everything. This is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. 19 Do not put out the fire of the spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine. 22 Abstain from every form of wickedness. 23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. And may the spirit and soul and body of you brothers, sound in every respect, be preserved blameless at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who is calling you is faithful, and he will surely do so.

Being on the "watch" can have nothing to do with the "time" or "season" or "generation" or "chronology" because this very chapter starts out with the words:

(1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.

 

 

[Guest]

@JW Insider Interesting point of view. I don't get that feeling from the chapters though. (Matthew 24,25)

As for the chronology we are in absolute agreement, as we have already discussed previously, since we both take to the letter 1Thessalonians 5:1,2.

[JW Insider]

45 minutes ago, ThePraeceptor said:

53 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

And I think that many of us have used this very reasoning

Good to know!

Not taking anything away from the illustration. I just meant that it (or something very similar) has been used in talks and articles in the past:

*** w13 1/1 p. 8 The End of the World—Fear, Fascination, and Frustration ***
Consider this example: A lookout in a fire tower might see what he thinks is a wisp of smoke on the horizon and sound what proves to be a false alarm. Later, though, his alertness could save lives.
  Likewise, we have had some wrong expectations about the end. But we are more concerned with obeying Jesus and saving lives than with avoiding criticism. Jesus’ command to “give a thorough witness” compels us to warn others about the end.—Acts 10:42.

 

[Evacuated]

42 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

you need nothing to be written to you.

Isn't this partly because they had the words of Jesus regarding the times and the seasons?

How do you think Jesus words at Matt 24:44 are applied?

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Isn't this partly because they had the words of Jesus regarding the times and the seasons?

How do you think Jesus words at Matt 24:44 are applied?

Yes, when Paul said 'You don't need anything to be written to you about chronology' he told the Thessalonians his reason, and he knew they had already heard the words of Jesus on this topic (whether or not any of the Gospel accounts had been written yet).

Jesus had said:

(Matthew 24:42-44) 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.

And likewise Paul gave this as the reason they needed nothing written to them:

 (1 Thessalonians 5:2) 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.

Peter, too:

(2 Peter 3:10) 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief,. . .

 

It also looks like both Peter and Paul kept the same context in mind that Jesus had given. It's something that I think we often overlook, and was pointed out in the August 15, 205 Watchtower, already quoted above:

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

However, Jesus said that most people would take “no note” of his presence, carrying on with life’s normal activities until it is too late. (Read Matthew 24:37-39.) Thus, the Scriptures indicate that world conditions during the last days would not become so extreme that people would be forced to believe that the end is near.—Luke 17:20; 2 Pet. 3:3, 4.

The point that 2 Peter 3:3,4 makes is already incorporated into the Watchtower's point. I think that we are sometimes so desirous of finding "a sign" that we actually turn the next verse in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 into another sign, too. But it could just as easily mean there is no sign, and this would match Jesus' words without the implied contradiction. 

(1 Thessalonians 5:3) Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, . . .

This is very likely the same thing as saying that they still believe they are dwelling in peace and security because things are continuing on as they always have:

(2 Peter 3:4) . . .saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

(Matthew 24:36-42) . . .. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

The other verse quoted there in that 2015 Watchtower, seems to imply that there will be some level of a sign, but only if we focus on the word "striking." It's as if it says, there will be some signs of observableness, but "on the other hand" they won't be striking.

(Luke 17:20) . . .“The Kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness;

If the verse actually said that, it would be similar to the point that was made in that same Watchtower:

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

On the other hand, for the composite sign to serve its purpose, the fulfillment of it would have to be obvious enough

Of course, it's probably not surprising that the word "striking" is not really in the original Greek. It seems to have been added in the NWT specifically to fit our doctrine about a composite sign. Without the added word, the original Greek lends itself better to the following translations:

(Luke 17:20, NLT) One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, “When will the Kingdom of God come?” Jesus replied, “The Kingdom of God can’t be detected by visible signs. . . "

(Luke 17:20, ESV) Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, . . ."

Apparently this is the same way he answered the disciples when they asked for a sign, and Jesus said, in effect, do not be misled, and start thinking that a great war is a sign.  Of course, as JWs, we already have another way to understand this, and the verse doesn't actually prove anything one way or another. We could use it to advance the theory of a 100 to 150 year-long (or longer) parousia. But I think it makes for a better fit for Matthew 24, if we were to accept the more probable meaning of "parousia" as a surprise, world-shattering event that is as strikingly observable as lightning, but with no advance warning.

So, since you asked, that's how I think Jesus' words in Matthew 24:44 are applied. I'd be happy to know if anyone sees good evidence that this is wrong. I can make a very weak case for our view of a composite sign, but a very strong case for a surprise, with absolutely no advance warning signs. One view seems to create contradictions, and the other doesn't.

And, by the way, I don't think there is NO time element in Jesus' warning about the generation. Being on the watch includes a time element which I have argued ( @ThePraeceptor ) is secondary, not primary, to the "internal" watchfulness about what sort of people we ought to be. But both ideas are true.  Of course, in Jesus' warning the parousia appears to come at the END of the generation, not the beginning of that generation.

[Evacuated]

16 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, in Jesus' warning the parousia appears to come at the END of the generation, not the beginning of that generation.

Matt. 24:37-39 does not sit well with this suggestion.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Matt. 24:37-39 does not sit well with this suggestion.

The suggestion is that, for Jesus, the parousia appears to come at the END of the generation, not the BEGINNING.

I think that Matthew 24:37-39 not only 'sits well' with this suggestion, it offers additional evidence for it. But I also think it depends on whether we are willing to interpret Jesus' words in a consistent manner, or a contradictory manner. If we are willing to accept contradictions, then we could make Matthew 24 say anything we want. I prefer to see if there is a way to read Matthew 24 without so many serious contradictions.

For example, go back to some verses just leading up to these verses:

(Matthew 24:23-27) . . .“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

Why is it that Jesus said not to believe anyone who claims that "The Christ is here!"?

Yet, many religions, including our own, have based their core message since 1878 on this specific claim that "The Christ is here!"

The reason Jesus said that this could not be claimed is that it would imply that they thought they had seen a sign or evidence prior to the actual event. This would, of course, be impossible because the actual parousia would be as unmistakable as lightning that flashes from one end of the horizon all the way to the other end.

So is it possible that this great event, "the parousia of the Son of man," could be invisible? Is it possible that Christ is here, but we just can't see him from where we are? Jesus covered this claim as well when he predicted that some might even claim that he was in the wilderness, or in the inner rooms. Jesus said: "Do not believe it!" Jesus perfectly covered the idea that people might claim falsely that "Christ is present, but he's invisible." How, would we know they were wrong? Because Matthew 24:27 explains that the parousia of the Son of man will be as visible as lightning.

In other words, his parousia should be compared to the most obviously visible event we can think of. More proof that it is an appearance, a manifestation is found by looking at the context of ALL the other mentions of Jesus' presence. A couple of them are included below:

(2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

(2 Timothy 4:1) 4 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) 7 . . . relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, . . . from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder . . .

(1 John 2:28) 28 So now, little children, remain in union with him, so that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not shrink away from him in shame at his presence [parousia].

Note especially that the word "parousia" is sometimes replaced, paralled, and modified with a word that means "glorious epiphany" in the Bible. In Thayer's Greek Lexicon, the definition includes the following:

ἐπιφάνεια, ἐπιφανείας, ἡ (ἐπιφανής), an appearing, appearance : often used by the Greeks of a glorious manifestation of the gods, . . .  not only that which has already taken place and by which his presence and power appear in the saving light he has shed upon mankind, 2 Timothy 1:10 (note the word φωτίσαντος in this passage); but also that illustrious return from heaven to earth hereafter to occur: 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1, 8; Titus 2:13 . . . ἡ ἐπιφάνεια (i. e. the breaking forth) τῆς παρουσίας αὐτοῦ, 2 Thessalonians 2:8.

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia]. (NWT)

the brightness of his coming: (KJV)

the splendor of his coming. (NLV)

(Titus 2:13) while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ, (NWT)

Taking a cue from the new "Kingdom" book, we could therefore speak of the beginning of the parousia as "the greatest event" (p.13). The parousia is indeed the "epiphany of his presence," the "glorious manifestation," the "brightness," the "lightning," the "revelation," the time of "flaming fire."

That is of course the background for answering the question about Matthew 24:37-39. (Next post)