God's Kingdom Rules

[Ann O'Maly]

12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I think that Matthew 24:37-39 not only 'sits well' with this suggestion, it offers additional evidence for it. ... ....

[rest of post snipped]

Precisely! When I was looking at the Bible's teaching about Jesus' Return/Parousia/Coming with fresh eyes all those years ago, it was a 'slap head' moment being scripturally led to the same conclusions as you have outlined in your past few posts. You've explained it so well. 

[Evacuated]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I think that Matthew 24:37-39 not only 'sits well' with this suggestion

Well, so far, I think not, despite @Ann O'Maly 's happy refrain.

Nevertheless, I await your next post before I draw any conclusions.

[Anna]

On 10/11/2016 at 2:01 AM, JW Insider said:

Maybe. But I have to wonder why a person would "stick their neck out" sometimes with an actual "month" and "year" or even attempt to pinpoint a specific day such as October 1, 1914 or "the fourth day of the seventh [Jewish] month of 1874" or "Passover 1878" or even as John Aquila Brown was quoted earlier:

"We have seen also, in deciding on the other chronological periods, that many proofs point out the year 1844 as a remarkable crisis. . . . I submit therefore as a memorable circumstance, that the 49th jubilee year, reckoning from the rise of the Babylonic monarchy, or the period of Nebuchadnezzar's ascending that throne . . . would take place January 1, 1845. . . . the commencement of an everlasting jubilee. . .  I conclude, therefore . . . from the rise of the four monarchies . . . to their final dissolution, there will be . . . 2520 years . . . and will terminate January 1, 1917." (p. 152)

This seems a bit arrogant when Jesus & Paul said:

(Acts 1:7) . . .“It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.

(1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.

It is difficult to understand how someone can make a prediction without taking into account Jesus' words, and yet it becomes possible to rationalize, in spite of Jesus' words:

*** w68 8/15 pp. 500-501 pars. 35-36 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the “day and hour”!
36 Even if one cannot see beyond 1975, is this any reason to be less active? The apostles could not see even this far; they knew nothing about 1975.

 

 

 

True....

How does Jesus’ illustration of the fig three fit into this?

“Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things,  know that he is near at the doors”.

I am kind of more inclined like the Praeceptor to think that it was more of “I don’t want to die”. But on the other hand, death would have meant their reward of heavenly life, so maybe it was the fact that they wanted to see the vindication of Jehovah’s name in their life time, but one could also argue that what better vantage point than heaven to see this,....  

I have to wonder too, why would one want to stick ones neck out....

I am trying to put myself in their shoes, especially with Russell and his associates, how exciting it must have been to be discovering  Bible truth, a bit like solving a mystery in an Indiana Jones movie,  and how tempting it must have been to get carried away in interpreting Bible prophesy. As we know, Russell for a time even saw Bible prophesy in the Pyramids....

I guess it’s natural to assume that YOU are the one who is going to see the fulfillment. We have been saying the end is NEAR  for over a hundred years, and this is technically true since 100 years in the grand scheme of time is not really that long, especially when 1000 years is as a day to Jehovah.  That’s why I would find it a little hard to believe that two years for example would hold much significance, when we used to say that was the period of captivity to Babylon. (1916 –1919, think it was) I always kind of thought that didn’t sound right so when the brother (br. Lett?)  asked that “million dollar question”, I guessed it immediately, because it made so much more sense (period of captivity to Babylon from the first apostasy in the 1^st century up to when  Russell started to pave the way as Jehovah’s messenger  (rattling of the bones)). Sorry I digress a little here, but it’s just to show that what was previously 2 years, became  nearly 2000 years, much more realistic.  Back to my point, 100 years in comparison is nothing, but admittedly it’s not long looking back, but it can appear long when you are looking forward.  So if we were to say Armageddon won’t come for another 100 years, well, all of us posting on here would no longer be alive, so then it would be rather long! And it would definitely not feel like it was near!  So this is why I think it was more natural for them to put a time limit on it during their life time.

 But I can see why you would say it is a little arrogant, especially when one proclaims that "millions now living will never die”. That does seems kind of presumptuous, although I believe it was said in genuine faith. What I can’t understand is that after a series of disappointments I wonder why the slave is trying to explain the generation again. When bro. Splane introduced it on broadcasting I don’t remember him saying  “by popular demand” or “some have wondered” or “some found it difficult to understand” ....etc. therefore I will explain it using this chart....etc.  

Since you still keep in touch with a few Bethelites, would it be possible to find out the reason WHY the overlapping generation was explained again?

 

[Anna]

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The suggestion is that, for Jesus, the parousia appears to come at the END of the generation, not the BEGINNING.

I think that Matthew 24:37-39 not only 'sits well' with this suggestion, it offers additional evidence for it. But I also think it depends on whether we are willing to interpret Jesus' words in a consistent manner, or a contradictory manner. If we are willing to accept contradictions, then we could make Matthew 24 say anything we want. I prefer to see if there is a way to read Matthew 24 without so many serious contradictions.

For example, go back to some verses just leading up to these verses:

(Matthew 24:23-27) . . .“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

Why is it that Jesus said not to believe anyone who claims that "The Christ is here!"?

Yet, many religions, including our own, have based their core message since 1878 on this specific claim that "The Christ is here!"

The reason Jesus said that this could not be claimed is that it would imply that they thought they had seen a sign or evidence prior to the actual event. This would, of course, be impossible because the actual parousia would be as unmistakable as lightning that flashes from one end of the horizon all the way to the other end.

So is it possible that this great event, "the parousia of the Son of man," could be invisible? Is it possible that Christ is here, but we just can't see him from where we are? Jesus covered this claim as well when he predicted that some might even claim that he was in the wilderness, or in the inner rooms. Jesus said: "Do not believe it!" Jesus perfectly covered the idea that people might claim falsely that "Christ is present, but he's invisible." How, would we know they were wrong? Because Matthew 24:27 explains that the parousia of the Son of man will be as visible as lightning.

In other words, his parousia should be compared to the most obviously visible event we can think of. More proof that it is an appearance, a manifestation is found by looking at the context of ALL the other mentions of Jesus' presence. A couple of them are included below:

(2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

(2 Timothy 4:1) 4 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) 7 . . . relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, . . . from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder . . .

(1 John 2:28) 28 So now, little children, remain in union with him, so that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not shrink away from him in shame at his presence [parousia].

Note especially that the word "parousia" is sometimes replaced, paralled, and modified with a word that means "glorious epiphany" in the Bible. In Thayer's Greek Lexicon, the definition includes the following:

ἐπιφάνεια, ἐπιφανείας, ἡ (ἐπιφανής), an appearing, appearance : often used by the Greeks of a glorious manifestation of the gods, . . .  not only that which has already taken place and by which his presence and power appear in the saving light he has shed upon mankind, 2 Timothy 1:10 (note the word φωτίσαντος in this passage); but also that illustrious return from heaven to earth hereafter to occur: 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1, 8; Titus 2:13 . . . ἡ ἐπιφάνεια (i. e. the breaking forth) τῆς παρουσίας αὐτοῦ, 2 Thessalonians 2:8.

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia]. (NWT)

the brightness of his coming: (KJV)

the splendor of his coming. (NLV)

(Titus 2:13) while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ, (NWT)

Taking a cue from the new "Kingdom" book, we could therefore speak of the beginning of the parousia as "the greatest event" (p.13). The parousia is indeed the "epiphany of his presence," the "glorious manifestation," the "brightness," the "lightning," the "revelation," the time of "flaming fire."

That is of course the background for answering the question about Matthew 24:37-39. (Next post)

 

 

I was always under the impression that the invisible part of Christ’s presence was when he came into Kingly power and kicked Satan out of heaven (1914) Rev 12:10

 and then his presence coming to execute judgement, at  Armageddon, obviously very visible

2 Peter 3:12 “as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah,  through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat”

[Anna]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The suggestion is that, for Jesus, the parousia appears to come at the END of the generation, not the BEGINNING.

 

If I understand the following articles in the WT correctly, there are two types of coming, the first one; presence/parousia (at the beginning of the generation) being an invisible manifestation based on surrounding circumstances i.e. the composite sign and the invisible establishment of his Kingdom, and the second one his coming/erkhomai to execute judgement (future, at the end of the generation) based on a physical manifestation like you mention. Perhaps @ the Praeceptor can confirm this as he is Greek and a linguist....

 WT July 2013

¹⁵ In the part of his prophecy that is recorded at Matthew 24:29–25:46, Jesus focuses primarily on what will happen during these last days and during the coming great tribulation. There, Jesus makes eight references to his “coming,” or arrival. * Regarding the great tribulation, he states: “They will see the Son of man coming on the clouds.” “You do not know on what day your Lord is coming.” “At an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.” And in his parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus states: “The Son of man arrives in his glory.” (Matt. 24:30, 42, 44; 25:31) Each of these four references applies to Christ’s future coming as Judge. Where in Jesus’ prophecy do we find the remaining four references?

¹⁶ Regarding the faithful and discreet slave, Jesus says: “Happy is that slave if his master on arriving [“having come,” ftn.] finds him doing so.” In the parable of the virgins, Jesus states: “While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom arrived [“came,” Kingdom Interlinear].” In the parable of the talents, Jesus relates: “After a long time the master of those slaves came.” In the same parable, the master says: “On my arrival [“having come,” Int] I would be receiving what is mine.” (Matt. 24:46; 25:10, 19, 27) To what time do these four instances of Jesus’ coming refer?

 ¹⁷ In the past, we have stated in our publications that these last four references apply to Jesus’ arriving, or coming, in 1918. As an example, take Jesus’ statement about “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Read Matthew 24:45-47.) We understood that the “arriving” mentioned in verse 46 was linked to the time when Jesus came to inspect the spiritual condition of the anointed in 1918 and that the appointment of the slave over all the Master’s belongings occurred in 1919. (Mal. 3:1) However, a further consideration of Jesus’ prophecy indicates that an adjustment in our understanding of the timing of certain aspects of Jesus’ prophecy is needed. Why so?

 ¹⁸ In the verses that lead up to Matthew 24:46, the word “coming” refers consistently to the time when Jesus comes to pronounce and execute judgment during the great tribulation. (Matt. 24:30, 42, 44) Also, as we considered in  paragraph 12, Jesus’ ‘arriving’ mentioned at Matthew 25:31 refers to that same future time of judgment. So it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings, mentioned at Matthew 24:46, 47, also applies to his future coming, during the great tribulation. * Indeed, a consideration of Jesus’ prophecy in its entirety makes it clear that each of these eight references to his coming applies to the future time of judgment during the great tribulation.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-prophecy-last-days/

¹⁶ When does Jesus arrive? The answer is found in the context. Remember that when the preceding verses speak of Jesus as “coming,” the word refers to the time when he comes to pronounce and execute judgment at the end of this system. * (Matt. 24:30, 42, 44) Hence, Jesus’ “arriving,” or “coming,” mentioned in the illustration of the faithful slave takes place during the great tribulation.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/who-is-faithful-discreet-slave/

 

 

 

[HollyW]

On 10/7/2016 at 10:31 PM, Anna said:

The Bible itself, sitting on peoples bookshelves gathering dust, isn’t going to do much good at all.

Notice that is not the type of Bible reading the WTS describes that they are objecting to:

They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. 

On 10/7/2016 at 10:31 PM, Anna said:

As long as the WTS adheres to the Bible, then what they say is the word of God essentially, because it is FROM the word of God.

When has the WTS adhered to the Bible, though?  Did it adhere to the Bible when it was teaching that all of the 144,000 were the faithful slave?

On 10/7/2016 at 10:31 PM, Anna said:

The quotation marks are rather important because as I am sure you are aware, in speech they indicate a kind of irony, same goes for written language. They are called sneer quotes.  In other words, the kind of ‘bible reading’ these people were doing was actually NOT independent or exclusive Bible reading at all, it was merely “so called” (such) Bible reading, whatever that entailed, regardless, or not including reading it apart from WTS publications. So that was the point the authors were implying.  

The article itself describes exactly what was entailed in the type of Bible study some JWs were doing:  reading the Bible without WT publications, either alone or in small groups at home.  But you then see the quote marks as negating what was just said.  I'm sure the WTS does sneer at Bible reading that is done apart from their publications that interpret it for you because that would mean their publications aren't needed any more.

On 10/7/2016 at 10:31 PM, Anna said:

In other words they do not believe someone reading the Bible would come to the same conclusions as Christendom if they were totally ignorant of Christendom's ideas and teachings in the first place. Would someone reading  the Christian Greek scriptures with no prior knowledge of the teachings, customs and traditions of Christendom  think that God was three persons in one? Would they think that Jesus wanted us to celebrate his birth every year? Would they think God wants them to take up arms and fight? I don't think so.

The WT article expresses the same idea that Russell expressed when he said if his followers left off reading his Studies in the Scriptures they would go into darkness, which the article says is the teachings Christians have been teaching for 100 years (it's actually longer than that ;))

And, yes, reading just the Bible shows that there are three separate and distinct person who are the one true God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The angels set a good example of the joyful celebration of Jesus' birth.  Christians are in good company celebrating the birth of our Savior and King.

There are plenty of examples of Godly warfare in the Bible and each Christian can exercise his or her own conscience when it comes to war.  JWs have no leg to stand on with this because the WTS itself teaches that there will be a number of JWs so large as to be uncountable who will go to war against other JWs at the end of the 1,000 years when they are supposedly perfect in every way: spiritually, physically, mentally, and morally.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Anna said:

Perhaps @ the Praeceptor can confirm this

Thank you for the trust Anna. :-)

I have nothing more or less to say on the subject. The WT article you quoted is extremely acurate. I myself was understanding these verses in this particular way even before becoming a Jehovah's Witness (of course not the assignement of particular dates to the events but the flow of the events). I try not to interprete the scriptures relative to prophecies. I leave that to the slave.

The interpretation given by the article you quoted is the only logical one in my view. To deny or question the existence of the composite sign is to go against what is written. The wording and the general contex leave no other explanation. The parable of the fig tree you mentioned is a prime example of that. Also it is clear from the text that there are two distinct events as you yourself wrote:

4 hours ago, Anna said:

there are two types of coming, the first one; presence/parousia (at the beginning of the generation) being an invisible manifestation based on surrounding circumstances i.e. the composite sign and the invisible establishment of his Kingdom, and the second one his coming/erkhomai to execute judgement (future, at the end of the generation) based on a physical manifestation like you mention

My only complaint is that neither of the two comings requires a physical manifestation. Both "parousia" and the verbs describing the "coming" and "arriving" can be understood as refering to invisible events.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, HollyW said:

And, yes, reading just the Bible shows that there are three separate and distinct person who are the one true God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

No, it doesn't show this. You should read it again.

10 minutes ago, HollyW said:

The angels set a good example of the joyful celebration of Jesus' birth.  Christians are in good company celebrating the birth of our Savior and King.

It was never asked in the Bible for the Christians to celebrate Jesus' or anybody elses' birth. But, you go on, celebrate Christmas and don't forget to read the verses about the christmas tree, Santa Claus and the reindeers.

13 minutes ago, HollyW said:

There are plenty of examples of Godly warfare in the Bible and each Christian can exercise his or her own conscience when it comes to war

These were wars ORDERED directly by God himself. If you think that a political leader speaks for God or is a physical manifestation of God then go ahead and go to war or "exercise your coscience" about it.

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, Anna said:

I was always under the impression that the invisible part of Christ’s presence was when he came into Kingly power and kicked Satan out of heaven (1914) Rev 12:10

 and then his presence coming to execute judgement, at  Armageddon, obviously very visible

2 Peter 3:12 “as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah,  through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat”

My "next post" was going to be tomorrow with specific reference to Jesus' statement that the parousia would be like the days of Noah. But this is the same basic question. Again, I don't expect that these opinions, on their own, should convince anyone one way or another. I'm trying to present a case for why it is easier to understand Matthew 24 and everything about the parousia in a way that appears more consistent with all the Bible references in context, and why our current doctrine produces some difficulties and contradictions. So here goes:

There are NO Bible references to the "parousia" that are not directly related to Jesus' coming to execute judgment. In other words, ALL Bible references to the "parousia" refer to the judgment events that we associate with the "great tribulation" and Armageddon.

In fact the 2013 Watchtower you quoted in a separate post moved several teachings from the beginning of the "1914 generation" to the end that we once assigned to the beginning of the generation. I'll highlight a few portions:

*** w13 7/15 pp. 7-8 pars. 14-19 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
Does a further consideration of Jesus’ prophecy reveal that our understanding of the timing of other significant events needs to be adjusted? . . . Jesus focuses primarily on what will happen during these last days and during the coming great tribulation. There, Jesus makes eight references to his “coming,” or arrival. . . .  (Matt. 24:30, 42, 44; 25:31) Each of these four references applies to Christ’s future coming as Judge. Where in Jesus’ prophecy do we find the remaining four references?
¹⁶ Regarding the faithful and discreet slave. . . (Matt. 24:46; 25:10, 19, 27) To what time do these four instances of Jesus’ coming refer?
¹⁷ In the past, we have stated in our publications that these last four references apply to Jesus’ arriving, or coming, in 1918. As an example, take Jesus’ statement about “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Read Matthew 24:45-47.) . . .
¹⁸In the verses that lead up to Matthew 24:46, the word “coming” refers consistently to the time when Jesus comes to pronounce and execute judgment during the great tribulation. (Matt. 24:30, 42, 44) Also, as we considered in paragraph 12, Jesus’ ‘arriving’ mentioned at Matthew 25:31 refers to that same future time of judgment. So it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings, mentioned at Matthew 24:46, 47, also applies to his future coming, during the great tribulation. Indeed, a consideration of Jesus’ prophecy in its entirety makes it clear that each of these eight references to his coming applies to the future time of judgment during the great tribulation.
¹⁹ . . . So, then, all three “whens” apply to the same future time period—the great tribulation. How does this adjusted view further affect our understanding of the illustration of the faithful slave? Also, how does it affect our understanding of other parables, or illustrations, of Jesus that are being fulfilled during this time of the end? These important questions will be considered in the following articles.

This had to be done, because several contradictions were being produced by our former explanations of various prophecies and parables (and also "prophetic dramas" that we were still deriving from Bible narratives at the time of this article). But this didn't get rid of all of the contradictions.

In fact, the "1914 doctrine" no longer serves any purpose except to point to a time when we assume that Satan was cast out of heaven in October, which vaguely explains the war that broke out earlier in July and which the Watchtower had said was easily predicted from the political tensions and build-up for several years prior to 1914. Casting him out is also supposed to explain Satan's anger at his short period of time, explaining his wrath in the WWI period, and which we should assume is now even a shorter period of time than it was in 1914. But the "1914 doctrine" does nothing to explain why the Gentile nations got much stronger, more numerous, and more effective after 1914 now that their "times had ended" and their kings had already "had their day." Somehow, this explained how Jesus had come into Kingly power in 1914.

In fact, related to that last point, note that the article points out that 1914 was no longer even the time when Jesus "sat down" on his glorious throne as we had always explained Matthew 25:31. There was a recent discussion on this forum about the "sit then stand then sit again" sequence, which has also changed a few times over the years. 

¹¹ In the mid-1990’s, The Watchtower reexamined Matthew 25:31, which states: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.” It was noted that Jesus became King of God’s Kingdom in 1914, but he did not “sit down on his glorious throne” as Judge of “all the nations.”

But it turns out that all these issues go away, and we no longer have to create special or "less likely" translations of various Greek words, if we just take notice of the fact that ALL the references to the parousia are about the final time of tribulation and judgment.

The reference to 2 Peter 3:12 is just one of many verses that highlights this same point. Note that this is about the "parousia of the Lord." (The NWT uses the term Jehovah here, and it might not be as clear therefore that the Greek refers to the same Parousia of Jesus.) I'll temporarily change it back to the Greek manuscript "Lord", and change "presence" to "parousia" and I think it will be clearer. 

(2 Peter 3:3-12) ³ First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come . . . saying: “Where is this promised PAROUSIA of his? . . . ⁵ For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago. . . the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. ⁷ But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people. . . . ¹⁰ But the Lord's day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, . . . consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, ¹² as you await and keep close in mind the PAROUSIA of the day of the Lord, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat!

In fact, our publications do not usually associate this particular "parousia" with Christ's parousia starting in 1914, but to the "end" (except that we contradict this by always using verses 3 and 4 to point to the duration from 1914 through the end). Notice this particular explanation:

*** it-1 p. 595 Day of Jehovah ***
That “day of Jehovah” came in 70 C.E., when, in fulfillment of his Word, Jehovah caused the armies of Rome to execute divine judgment upon the nation that had rejected the Son of God and defiantly shouted: “We have no king but Caesar.”—Joh 19:15; Da 9:24-27.
However, the Scriptures point forward to yet another “day of Jehovah.” After the restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem following the Babylonian exile, Jehovah caused his prophet Zechariah (14:1-3) to foretell “a day . . . belonging to Jehovah” when he would gather not merely one nation but “all the nations against Jerusalem,” at the climax of which day “Jehovah will certainly go forth and war against those nations,” bringing them to their end. The apostle Paul, under inspiration, associated the coming “day of Jehovah” with the presence of Christ. (2Th 2:1, 2) And Peter spoke of it in connection with the establishment of ‘new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness is to dwell.’—2Pe 3:10-13.

This gives context, again, to the verses referenced from 2 Thessalonians 2:1,2 where the Parousia is not a drawn-out time period of 100 to 150 or even 200 years, but a specific time of judgment.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) 2 However, brothers, concerning the presence [PAROUSIA] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah [day of the Lord] is here.

The "day of the Lord" is equated with the "parousia of the Lord." And Paul goes on to explain why: because the apostasy would come first and the Parousia would be the time of judgment against that apostasy:

(2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [Gk: GLORIOUS EPIPHANY of his PAROUSIA].

We could look at every reference to Christ's parousia, and notice that it makes much more sense to translate it as an EVENT related to the judgment. When referring to Jesus' "parousia" it is always a reference to a bright, visible, unexpected event using a term that would also remind the first Greek-speaking audience of the famous parade-like event, the "royal visitation" of an emperor:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

It is never necessary, Biblically, to think of it as a drawn-out "presence."

[Evacuated]

15 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Again, I don't expect that these opinions, on their own, should convince anyone one way or another. I'm trying to present a case for why it is easier to understand Matthew 24 and everything about the parousia in a way that appears more consistent with all the Bible references in context, and why our current doctrine produces some difficulties and contradictions

I think this statement needs a little adjustment, (my italics and insertions in bold, no impertinence intended), to harmonise with the spirirt in which you appear to be raising this issue:

"Again, I don't expect that these opinions, on their own, should convince anyone one way or another. I'm trying to present a case for why it is easier for me to understand Matthew 24 and everything about the parousia in a way that appears to me more consistent with all the Bible references in context, and why, for me,  our current doctrine produces some difficulties and contradictions."

25 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

My "next post" was going to be tomorrow with specific reference to Jesus' statement that the parousia would be like the days of Noah

I'd like to dive in on some of the points you raise in your last post, as I am sure others quickly and extensively will. However, I am intrigued to consider how you harmonise the illustration Matthew 24:37-39 with your view, so I hope that your intention remains, and that this particular "manifestation" of your "presence" will soon occur. 

 

[Anna]

10 hours ago, HollyW said:

Notice that is not the type of Bible reading the WTS describes that they are objecting to:

They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. 

When has the WTS adhered to the Bible, though?  Did it adhere to the Bible when it was teaching that all of the 144,000 were the faithful slave?

The article itself describes exactly what was entailed in the type of Bible study some JWs were doing:  reading the Bible without WT publications, either alone or in small groups at home.  But you then see the quote marks as negating what was just said.  I'm sure the WTS does sneer at Bible reading that is done apart from their publications that interpret it for you because that would mean their publications aren't needed any more.

The WT article expresses the same idea that Russell expressed when he said if his followers left off reading his Studies in the Scriptures they would go into darkness, which the article says is the teachings Christians have been teaching for 100 years (it's actually longer than that ;))

And, yes, reading just the Bible shows that there are three separate and distinct person who are the one true God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The angels set a good example of the joyful celebration of Jesus' birth.  Christians are in good company celebrating the birth of our Savior and King.

There are plenty of examples of Godly warfare in the Bible and each Christian can exercise his or her own conscience when it comes to war.  JWs have no leg to stand on with this because the WTS itself teaches that there will be a number of JWs so large as to be uncountable who will go to war against other JWs at the end of the 1,000 years when they are supposedly perfect in every way: spiritually, physically, mentally, and morally.

The operative sentence here is "they say". They may not even have been reading the Bible, it may still have been gathering dust on the shelves

The slave adheres to the Bible in what I consider very important areas, whereas Christendom does not adhere to the Bible in those areas. You mentioned a few of them and the Praeceptor already commented on them so I won't. Whether all of the anointed are the slave or just a small group, is  a minor detail. Not important. It has not changed what the Bible says, that there IS a slave, whether that be many or a few.

P.S. The fact that those who "said" they wanted to read the Bible by itself ALREADY indicates that they are harboring some kind of animosity or unwillingness to follow the things the slave has written - which are in the Bible. This could be with respect to the preaching work, as it often is (too much bother) or Birthdays and Christmas for the kids (they are so left out) blood transfusions (I believe they will save my life, and I don't care if it's just temporary). Sitting on one's laurels because merely the belief in Jesus will guarantee salvation. What the belief in Jesus entails is conveniently left out.....

[Anna]

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

My "next post" was going to be tomorrow with specific reference to Jesus' statement that the parousia would be like the days of Noah. But this is the same basic question. Again, I don't expect that these opinions, on their own, should convince anyone one way or another. I'm trying to present a case for why it is easier to understand Matthew 24 and everything about the parousia in a way that appears more consistent with all the Bible references in context, and why our current doctrine produces some difficulties and contradictions. So here goes:

There are NO Bible references to the "parousia" that are not directly related to Jesus' coming to execute judgment. In other words, ALL Bible references to the "parousia" refer to the judgment events that we associate with the "great tribulation" and Armageddon.

In fact the 2013 Watchtower you quoted in a separate post moved several teachings from the beginning of the "1914 generation" to the end that we once assigned to the beginning of the generation. I'll highlight a few portions:

*** w13 7/15 pp. 7-8 pars. 14-19 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
Does a further consideration of Jesus’ prophecy reveal that our understanding of the timing of other significant events needs to be adjusted? . . . Jesus focuses primarily on what will happen during these last days and during the coming great tribulation. There, Jesus makes eight references to his “coming,” or arrival. . . .  (Matt. 24:30, 42, 44; 25:31) Each of these four references applies to Christ’s future coming as Judge. Where in Jesus’ prophecy do we find the remaining four references?
¹⁶ Regarding the faithful and discreet slave. . . (Matt. 24:46; 25:10, 19, 27) To what time do these four instances of Jesus’ coming refer?
¹⁷ In the past, we have stated in our publications that these last four references apply to Jesus’ arriving, or coming, in 1918. As an example, take Jesus’ statement about “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Read Matthew 24:45-47.) . . .
¹⁸In the verses that lead up to Matthew 24:46, the word “coming” refers consistently to the time when Jesus comes to pronounce and execute judgment during the great tribulation. (Matt. 24:30, 42, 44) Also, as we considered in paragraph 12, Jesus’ ‘arriving’ mentioned at Matthew 25:31 refers to that same future time of judgment. So it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings, mentioned at Matthew 24:46, 47, also applies to his future coming, during the great tribulation. Indeed, a consideration of Jesus’ prophecy in its entirety makes it clear that each of these eight references to his coming applies to the future time of judgment during the great tribulation.
¹⁹ . . . So, then, all three “whens” apply to the same future time period—the great tribulation. How does this adjusted view further affect our understanding of the illustration of the faithful slave? Also, how does it affect our understanding of other parables, or illustrations, of Jesus that are being fulfilled during this time of the end? These important questions will be considered in the following articles.

This had to be done, because several contradictions were being produced by our former explanations of various prophecies and parables (and also "prophetic dramas" that we were still deriving from Bible narratives at the time of this article). But this didn't get rid of all of the contradictions.

In fact, the "1914 doctrine" no longer serves any purpose except to point to a time when we assume that Satan was cast out of heaven in October, which vaguely explains the war that broke out earlier in July and which the Watchtower had said was easily predicted from the political tensions and build-up for several years prior to 1914. Casting him out is also supposed to explain Satan's anger at his short period of time, explaining his wrath in the WWI period, and which we should assume is now even a shorter period of time than it was in 1914.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 

In fact, related to that last point, note that the article points out that 1914 was no longer even the time when Jesus "sat down" on his glorious throne as we had always explained Matthew 25:31. There was a recent discussion on this forum about the "sit then stand then sit again" sequence, which has also changed a few times over the years. 

¹¹ In the mid-1990’s, The Watchtower reexamined Matthew 25:31, which states: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.” It was noted that Jesus became King of God’s Kingdom in 1914, but he did not “sit down on his glorious throne” as Judge of “all the nations.”

But it turns out that all these issues go away, and we no longer have to create special or "less likely" translations of various Greek words, if we just take notice of the fact that ALL the references to the parousia are about the final time of tribulation and judgment.

The reference to 2 Peter 3:12 is just one of many verses that highlights this same point. Note that this is about the "parousia of the Lord." (The NWT uses the term Jehovah here, and it might not be as clear therefore that the Greek refers to the same Parousia of Jesus.) I'll temporarily change it back to the Greek manuscript "Lord", and change "presence" to "parousia" and I think it will be clearer. 

(2 Peter 3:3-12) ³ First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come . . . saying: “Where is this promised PAROUSIA of his? . . . ⁵ For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago. . . the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. ⁷ But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people. . . . ¹⁰ But the Lord's day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, . . . consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, ¹² as you await and keep close in mind the PAROUSIA of the day of the Lord, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat!

In fact, our publications do not usually associate this particular "parousia" with Christ's parousia starting in 1914, but to the "end" (except that we contradict this by always using verses 3 and 4 to point to the duration from 1914 through the end). Notice this particular explanation:

*** it-1 p. 595 Day of Jehovah ***
That “day of Jehovah” came in 70 C.E., when, in fulfillment of his Word, Jehovah caused the armies of Rome to execute divine judgment upon the nation that had rejected the Son of God and defiantly shouted: “We have no king but Caesar.”—Joh 19:15; Da 9:24-27.
However, the Scriptures point forward to yet another “day of Jehovah.” After the restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem following the Babylonian exile, Jehovah caused his prophet Zechariah (14:1-3) to foretell “a day . . . belonging to Jehovah” when he would gather not merely one nation but “all the nations against Jerusalem,” at the climax of which day “Jehovah will certainly go forth and war against those nations,” bringing them to their end. The apostle Paul, under inspiration, associated the coming “day of Jehovah” with the presence of Christ. (2Th 2:1, 2) And Peter spoke of it in connection with the establishment of ‘new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness is to dwell.’—2Pe 3:10-13.

This gives context, again, to the verses referenced from 2 Thessalonians 2:1,2 where the Parousia is not a drawn-out time period of 100 to 150 or even 200 years, but a specific time of judgment.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) 2 However, brothers, concerning the presence [PAROUSIA] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah [day of the Lord] is here.

The "day of the Lord" is equated with the "parousia of the Lord." And Paul goes on to explain why: because the apostasy would come first and the Parousia would be the time of judgment against that apostasy:

(2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [Gk: GLORIOUS EPIPHANY of his PAROUSIA].

We could look at every reference to Christ's parousia, and notice that it makes much more sense to translate it as an EVENT related to the judgment. When referring to Jesus' "parousia" it is always a reference to a bright, visible, unexpected event using a term that would also remind the first Greek-speaking audience of the famous parade-like event, the "royal visitation" of an emperor:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

It is never necessary, Biblically, to think of it as a drawn-out "presence."

I do understand your reasoning and in many ways it makes sense. I have also considered what you posted before learning your view. But we should also consider another aspect I think, the time from Jehovah's perspective. To Him 100 to 200 years is just a few minutes. Also, as I mentioned before, Jesus talks about a time period which would make it evident to discerning ones (human perspective) that he was very near at the door (parable of fig tree) and it would be logical that this would be a relatively short time period (back to Jehovah's perspective). What puzzles me is why would Jesus have mentioned this parable if there would be no prior circumstances to his Judgment part of his manifestation, which would be as unmistakable as spring and the coming of summer. He mentioned the budding of the tree IN conjunction with the sign of the times, that the sign of the times would be as observable and identifiable as spring. Although his followers would not know the day or hour, they WOULD be able to recognize the season.  And where does the preaching of God's Kingdom fit into this? Is it a coincidence that the preaching work started when it did? Even if it was planned that way, it still would not nullify that statement. (of the Kingdom being preached and then the end would come.

The “new” generation of JWs, those in their 20’s and 30’s feel it won’t come for another 50 or more years, by which time they will be in their 70’s/80’s or possibly dead. But they still follow orders from Jesus and a large majority of them are full time pioneers. Others are saying “where is this promised presence of his”  “things are the same as they have always been, my parents thought I wouldn’t even go to school and now I am married and have kids myself” “where is the truth in "millions now living will never die” etc. etc. then they read R. Franz’s book which drives a nail in the coffin and they leave. Not only do they leave, but many of them become Atheists, and the few who remain “believers in Jesus”, stop following in his footsteps and just become imitation Christians.

But those who endure to the end will be saved…..Endure what? Perhaps the very things we are discussing here, the ambiguity of the times…what does Jesus' presence really mean in practice......interpretation of chronology…etc. etc. Just MY thoughts (in case I get slapped across the wrist by Eoin, just kidding Eoin ).

Here are a few more things:

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But the "1914 doctrine" does nothing to explain why the Gentile nations got much stronger, more numerous, and more effective after 1914 now that their "times had ended" and their kings had already "had their day." Somehow, this explained how Jesus had come into Kingly power in 1914.

Does sound puzzling. Perhaps this could be understood from Jehovah's perspective, their times HAVE ended as Jesus' BEGAN, and the countdown to their destruction had started. We know they are not just going to fade, and not go out without a fight as they are "being gathered" for the great war.

 

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The "day of the Lord" is equated with the "parousia of the Lord." And Paul goes on to explain why: because the apostasy would come first and the Parousia would be the time of judgment against that apostasy:

(2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [Gk: GLORIOUS EPIPHANY of his PAROUSIA].

I would say that this fits in with the present situation, Christendom has already been judged apostate because it has been exposed by those who found the "truth", and in practice, that judgement will be carried out when they are physically brought to nothing. OR one could also say that by their exposure, they/their teachings have been brought to nothing....This was certainly not the case a 100 years or so ago.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There are NO Bible references to the "parousia" that are not directly related to Jesus' coming to execute judgment. In other words, ALL Bible references to the "parousia" refer to the judgment events that we associate with the "great tribulation" and Armageddon.

This begs the question, what really is meant by "judgement" because judgment does not always have to be in relation to judgement being carried out/ executed,  but an evaluation of a situation over time in order to decide how to proceed, (as in the case of those who will come back to a resurrection of judgement). In the case of Christ's parousia, this judgement will culminate at Armageddon, but will be preceded by a judgment where the object of the judging is found to be lacking (in order for the adverse judgement/execution to be fair and justified). That period of judging, in MY opinion could fit into the time period from Christs supposed parousia in (or around) 1914 and culminate with the execution at Armaggeddon.....