When Did Jesus Secure Full Kingdom Power? Revisited

[Melinda Mills]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 1:26 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

This extract from the Insight book article on "Kingdom of God" sums up for me the manner in which Jesus could be both a king on his return to the heavens in 33CE, and King later on when heading up the long-promised Messianic Kingdom of God.

“The Kingdom of the Son of His Love.” Ten days after Jesus’ ascension to heaven, on Pentecost of 33 C.E., his disciples had evidence that he had been “exalted to the right hand of God” when Jesus poured out holy spirit upon them. (Ac 1:8, 9; 2:1-4, 29-33) The “new covenant” thus became operative toward them, and they became the nucleus of a new “holy nation,” spiritual Israel.—Heb 12:22-24; 1Pe 2:9, 10; Ga 6:16.
Christ was now sitting at his Father’s right hand and was the Head over this congregation. (Eph 5:23; Heb 1:3; Php 2:9-11) The Scriptures show that from Pentecost 33 C.E. onward, a spiritual kingdom was set up over his disciples. When writing to first-century Christians at Colossae, the apostle Paul referred to Jesus Christ as already having a kingdom: “[God] delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.”—Col 1:13; compare Ac 17:6, 7.
Christ’s kingdom from Pentecost of 33 C.E. onward has been a spiritual one ruling over spiritual Israel, Christians who have been begotten by God’s spirit to become the spiritual children of God. (Joh 3:3, 5, 6) When such spirit-begotten Christians receive their heavenly reward, they will no longer be earthly subjects of the spiritual kingdom of Christ, but they will be kings with Christ in heaven.—Re 5:9, 10.
“Kingdom of Our Lord and of His Christ.” The apostle John, writing toward the close of the first century C.E., foresaw through a divine revelation the future time when Jehovah God, by means of his Son, would make a new expression of divine rulership. At that time, as in the time of David’s bringing the Ark up to Jerusalem, it would be said that Jehovah ‘has taken his great power and begun ruling as king.’ This would be the time for loud voices in heaven to proclaim: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”—Re 11:15, 17; 1Ch 16:1, 31.
It is “our Lord,” the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, who asserts his authority over “the kingdom of the world,” setting up a new expression of his sovereignty toward our earth. He gives to his Son, Jesus Christ, a subsidiary share in that Kingdom, so that it is termed “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ.” This Kingdom is of greater proportions and bigger dimensions than “the kingdom of the Son of his love,” spoken of at Colossians 1:13. “The kingdom of the Son of his love” began at Pentecost 33 C.E. and has been over Christ’s anointed disciples; “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ” is brought forth at the end of “the appointed times of the nations” and is over all mankind on earth.—Lu 21:24.
 

You may be interested in this article as well. In addition to the scripture at Col 1:13, it also uses Ephesians 1:20-22 which shows He "made him the head over all things to the congregation". There is other food for thought in it as well. 

*** w95 10/15 How Will You Stand Before the Judgment Seat? ***

Jesus’ Position

¹³ Jehovah is both King and Judge. What of Jesus? The angel announcing his birth said: “Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, . . . and there will be no end of his kingdom.” (Luke 1:32, 33) Jesus would be permanent heir of the Davidic kingship. (2 Samuel 7:12-16) He would rule from heaven, for David said: “The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord [Jesus] is: ‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.’ The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, saying: ‘Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.’”—Psalm 110:1-4.

¹⁴ When would that be? Jesus did not rule as King while a human. (John 18:33-37) In 33 C.E., he died, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven. Hebrews 10:12 says: “This man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God.” What authority did Jesus have? “[God] seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship . . . and made him head over all things to the congregation.” (Ephesians 1:20-22) Because Jesus then had kingly authority over Christians, Paul could write that Jehovah “delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.”—Colossians 1:13; 3:1.

¹⁵ At that time, however, Jesus did not act as King and Judge over the nations. He was seated next to God, awaiting the time to act as King of God’s Kingdom. Paul wrote of him: “With reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet’?”—Hebrews 1:13.

¹⁶ Jehovah’s Witnesses have published much evidence that Jesus’ period of waiting expired in 1914, when he became ruler of God’s Kingdom in the invisible heavens. Revelation 11:15, 18 says: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” “But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came.” Yes, the nations expressed wrath toward one another during World War I. (Luke 21:24) The wars, earthquakes, pestilences, food shortages, and the like, that we have seen since 1914 confirm that Jesus is now ruling in God’s Kingdom, and the world’s final end is near.—Matthew 24:3-14.

===

We need to do a comprehensive digest and see where we are going. But the discussion is certainly very interesting and is helping us to remember a lot of Bible teachings.

[Evacuated]

9 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

We need to do a comprehensive digest

Your cited article is excellent. I would struggle to reword Para 15 any more clearly than it already is! 

[JW Insider]

8 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I would be interested in how you see Rev.11:15 and Rev.11:17 Fitting in with this discussion.

"The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever." Rev 11:15

“We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king." Rev 11:17

I can see Revelation as a sweeping history of the Kingdom from 33 CE on, conquering in the midst of its enemies, until the end of the thousand-year reign.

The two verses picked out above are clearly about milestone events or achievements of that Kingdom. Whichever particular milestone is referenced, whether past or present or future, results in much appreciation, especially in heaven. It must be an integral part of the working out of an overall purpose for the Kingdom. It fits the idea you pointed out earlier about how a major achievement or event related to the Kingdom could be spoken of as a time when "Jehovah becomes King" even though he was already the eternal King. In this particular case it appears that "Jehovah has become King" due to the installation of Jesus as a king who will rule forever with Jehovah. I find this to be a parallel to (or echo of) 1 Chronicles 16, as was already pointed out earlier. Also see, Isaiah 24, Psalm 93, 96, 97, 98, 99. Part of the beauty of Revelation is the fact that these echoes are purposeful, and there are many of them in this chapter alone, starting with references to Ezekiel, Zechariah and Luke 21 at the beginning of the chapter.

I would love to go into detail on the appreciation I have for all of Revelation. In fact, I find it difficult to just pick out these two verses without discussing how it fits into the entire book. I started to answer about Revelation 11 by showing how it fits well within the content of chapters 8 through 19. Naturally, this is not the purpose of your question, so I will save that, and not even try to comment on the surrounding verses in the same chapter. But you are probably aware that I no longer find this chapter to include predictions about 1918 and 1919, and therefore it is unlikely that certain ideas I appreciate from Revelation 11 would coincide with certain ideas you appreciate from the same chapter.

But I also don't see these potential differences as a problem, because Revelation was purposely provided to us in a cryptic manner, such that the Watchtower itself has rarely kept the same interpretations of entire chapters intact for more than a few decades at a time. Revelation continues to serve the purpose of giving us hope through all kinds of trials, tribulations, woes and plagues, and yet we are encouraged that our faith in Jehovah's Kingdom is not misplaced. Jehovah is always in control and his Kingdom will continue to conquer so that the promise of a new heavens and new earth cannot fail.

Other than that, the specifics of Revelation will always pique our interest in serious Bible study, fuel the imagination of Christians and would-be Christians alike, encourage us to rely on persons who know more about Bible history and the Bible texts than we ourselves do, and, perhaps primarily, test our humility. It reminds us that we cannot rely on ourselves alone for understanding, and perhaps, too, that not everything that has happened or will happen in Christian history will always be personally about us.

[ComfortMyPeople]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I can see Revelation as a sweeping history of the Kingdom from 33 CE on, conquering in the midst of its enemies, until the end of the thousand-year reign.

 

At this stage, I must confess I had clear what happened in 33, but not now. Nothing that shakes the framework of my faith about the role of Jesus, naturally! But as I’m a little bit ‘weak in faith’, I apologize because I’d appreciate some more clarifications.

I specially find it difficult to accept this idea in you post: “I can see Revelation as a sweeping history of the Kingdom from 33 CE on, conquering in the midst of its enemies, until the end of the thousand-year reign.”

This is so because I can’t find any basis to go back from the time the Revelation was written to year 33. Moreover, when this book clearly states, from his beginning to his end:

• ·        (Re 1:1) “to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.”

• ·        (Re 4:1) “and the first voice that I heard speaking with me was like a trumpet, saying: “Come up here, and I will show you the things that must take place.”

• ·        (Re 22:6) “He said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah, the God who inspired the prophets, has sent his angel to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.”

Frankly, I don’t find any clue to start to think that some of the visions and declarations of Revelation begun to happen in 33, when Jesus went to heaven.

In fact, I seem to remember one commentary of JWI saying the riding of the white horse in Re 6, and the ulterior calamities have to do with the events from 33 until now. Do I remember well?

But I can’t reconcile the idea of giving a crown to Jesus in 33 and the following:

• ·        The white horse rider “went out conquering and to complete his conquest”

• ·        Any defeat was predicted

• ·        After 33 C.E. the apostasy won over the Christianism (wheat and weeds parable)

• ·        Centuries of obscurantism fell upon mankind

Perhaps, I think so, the vision of the crowned king riding the white horse apply to the last era of this world, let’s say in the Revelation era.

Could any charitable soul be so kind to help this poor obtuse man!?

 

 

[JW Insider]

On 2/28/2017 at 7:16 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

“I see Satan already fallen” (Lu 10:18)

We all agree these words, expressed in a past tense, would have a future fulfillment.

[Note: Several of the ideas presented below are not in accord with current Watch Tower publications.]

Why? It's quite possible you are right, but the Scriptures seem to point away from a distant fulfillment in the future.

Just for the record, I see no reason to deny Jesus' words here. Yes, it's true that the full destruction of Satan would come at a later date, but there is no reason to believe that Satan had not fallen based specifically on the accomplishment of Jesus' ministry. Jesus' ministry was for the very purpose of breaking the power of Satan, and that ministry was accomplished.

Is there a scripture that says that this falling, or casting down of Satan from heaven was scheduled for some time far in the future?

Satan's rule of sin was broken because Jehovah could now view sinners as if righteous. Men of goodwill now had a proper means of approach to God and a means, therefore, of taking back what Satan had taken away. Jesus took away the sin of the world. 

A part of the symbolism about the power over Satan was the fact that powerful works performed by Jesus and his early disciples included proof positive that Jesus was conquering Satan's power. Jesus had given the disciples authority over the demons. But the primary accomplishment of his ministry was that Jesus saved mankind from the spiritually paralyzing effects of sin. Satan would still be here to tempt us and would still be the "god of this system" just as he was in 1815, 1915 and 2015. Clearly Satan's power over us was brought low, because, through Christ's ministry Christians now have power to conquer -- to get the mastery over sin. Satan lost his "rule" over us, even though he continued his rule over the world. We know from Hebrews that this ministry was fully accomplished at Jesus' death and resurrection. Note:

(John 12:31-33) 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all sorts of men to myself.” 33 This he was really saying to indicate what sort of death he was about to die.

(Hebrews 2:14) . . .so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil,

(John 14:30) 30 I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me.

The spread of that Kingdom in 33 CE, starting at Pentecost was also a key part of the ministry of Jesus through the pouring out of the holy spirit:

(John 16:8-11) . . .And when that one comes, [holy spirit] he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: 9 first concerning sin, because they are not exercising faith in me; 10 then concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; 11 then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

(Acts 26:17, 18) 17 And I will rescue you from this people and from the nations, to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light and from the authority of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by their faith in me.’

And of course, this whole argument comes "full circle" again, explaining how the Kingdom is already at work:

(Ephesians 2:1-6) 2 Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, carrying out the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved. 6 Moreover, he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus,

Surely, it was in this same way that Satan was cast down knowing he had a short period of time, seeking to devour, just as he is depicted in Revelation 12:

(1 Peter 5:8) . . .Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.

(Revelation 2:10) . . .Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison so that you may be fully put to the test, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

(Revelation 12:9-12) 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

In 2016, Satan was surely aware that his time was even shorter than it was in 1916, yet there is no specific evidence that Satan's anger was any less visceral during Nero's day, or back when Peter said that Satan was already walking about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. Therefore, I would take Jesus at his word, and not place this event of Satan's falling or "casting out" as something that occurs thousands of years later.

[JW Insider]

21 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

I specially find it difficult to accept this idea in you post: “I can see Revelation as a sweeping history of the Kingdom from 33 CE on, conquering in the midst of its enemies, until the end of the thousand-year reign.”

This is so because I can’t find any basis to go back from the time the Revelation was written to year 33. Moreover, when this book clearly states, from his beginning to his end:

• ·        (Re 1:1) “to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.” . . . (Re 4:1) . . . (Re 22:6) . . .

[Note: Several of the ideas presented below are not in accord with current Watch Tower publications.]

Clearly, the overall purpose of Revelation is to show things that must shortly take place. The goal is to help Christians conquer through this final era of time (the last days) when they may face imminent death, persecution, long prison terms, or even a long life filled with temptation to join sinners or, perhaps, to merely leave the love they had at first, by not keeping that day "close in mind." Imminent.

(Revelation 2:3, 4) 3 You are also showing endurance, and you have persevered for the sake of my name and have not grown weary. 4 Nevertheless, I hold this against you, that you have left the love you had at first.

(Revelation 2:10) . . .Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison so that you may be fully put to the test, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Christians in all ages must deal with the fact that we have but one lifetime, or less, before we are "instantly" and "immediately" in the presence of Jesus. Yet he could also return at any time in these last days, too, "interrupting" our lifetime. Hebrews starts out with the same phrase: "in these last days." Paul warned Timothy that the reason he would be seeing such problems in the congregation was because they were in the last days. Peter in Acts tells the crowd at Pentecost that the holy spirit's presence was because they were now in the last days. The letters of Peter and Jude warn Christians that this was the reason they were seeing ridiculers with their ridicule about the delay of the parousia, because this is what they were told to expect during the last days. Yet Peter also implied that the parousia might not begin for thousands of years, because each of those "last days" could be as much as 1,000 years in Jehovah's eyes.

But as to the Revelation including a sweeping history of Christianity there is the following as evidence, from the very start of Revelation. Even before we can make use of Revelation 1:10 to claim that John was swept into some future "Lord's Day" we are given a setting that includes the past. Notice that Jesus had already proven himself to be the "The Faithful Witness." Notice that Jesus was already named: 

(Revelation 1:5,6) . . .“the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

Revelation speaks of Jesus as the "Lamb" 29 times, referring back to 33 CE. That's more times than he is referred to as either "Jesus" or "Christ" combined!  Although the goal of the book is to show that the promises must shortly take place, it is also made up of familiar scenes that had already taken place, and were still in progress, as God's Kingdom by Christ Jesus went on conquering in the midst of his enemies. Note also that an historical sense is found even in the titles of Jesus and Jehovah in names like "Alpha and Omega" and "the First and the Last." Notice the sweep of history:

(Revelation 1:4) . . .May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” . . .

(Revelation 1:17-19) . . .I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave. 19 So write down the things you saw, and the things that are, and the things that will take place after these.

In the past, various revelations had included a revealing of what was going on "behind the scenes" which gave Jehovah's people a sense that even if things seemed out of control on earth, there was a method and purpose behind it. Here are some examples of a revelation of something that went on in heaven to explain something that happened in the recent past:

(1 Kings 22:19) 19 Mi·caiʹah then said: “Therefore, hear the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne and all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left.

Also in the book of Job, the "curtain is pulled back" so that the events in Job's life are explained by recent past and current events taking place in heaven.

(Job 2:1) Afterward the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them to take his station before Jehovah.

The vision of Stephen was a revealing of what was going on in heaven to prove to him that Jesus was indeed already standing at God's right hand.

(Acts 7:55, 56) But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.”

I'll give one example from Revelation, since we are referencing chapter 11. The first readers of Revelation were Christians who were about to be swept up into the effects of woes and plagues and tribulations, and they were dealing with the very recent trauma of a devastation on Jerusalem, an entire religious system of things, which was 1,000 times worse than our "9/11" in New York and D.C.  Revelation 11 appears to deal with this trauma by reminding the readers that Jesus had predicted it, by referring to Jesus words:

(Luke 21:23, 24) . . .For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

(Revelation 11:1-4) . . .“Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. 3 I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.” 4 These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.

Early Christians would have had very little trouble, I think, identifying the point being made about the two lampstands, the two witnesses, and the two olive trees. Yet they knew that this woe would pass and would only prove to be a part of the ongoing evidence that Jehovah was in control, and all would be right with the world, in time.

(Romans 11:13-26) . . Seeing that I am an apostle to the nations, . . . For if their being cast away means reconciliation for the world, what will the acceptance of them mean but life from the dead? . . . 17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. . . . That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Do not be haughty, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Consider, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. There is severity toward those who fell, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you too will be lopped off. . . . 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree! 25 For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. . . .

Jerusalem's fall (their being cast away) was a time for both the witness to the nations (wild olive tree) and the witness to Israel (native olive tree) to carry on in sackcloth (partial dulling) for a time. But ultimately would result in life (life from the dead) for a full number of both. 

These first readers of Revelation were also dealing with death and war and pestilence and food shortages and earthquakes. How could they "square" that with the fact that Jesus was already ruling from God's right hand? Chapter 6 gave an image of how Jesus was ruling and conquering in the midst of these enemies (including the last enemy death, of course).

• (Revelation 6:2) . . .and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest.

Jesus begins his conquest from the first century, right alongside these death-dealing enemies. This was a perfect parallel to what Jesus had told them to expect in the first century while they anticipated his coming parousia.  (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) If that wasn't clear enough to the readers, additional references to the Olivet Discourse were included as a reminder of his coming parousia:

(Revelation 6:12, 13) . . .And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, 13 and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs.

Yet, they had been reminded that they would still have to wait a while:

(Revelation 6:11) . . .And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers . . .

And of course, chapter 7 shows how this would turn out, using a symbolic way of presenting how the "number was filled" both of Israel (Romans 11:12) and of the nations (see Romans 11:25, quoted above). 

(Romans 11:12) 12 Now if their [Israel's] false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their full number mean!

They were being reminded that the delay was nothing to worry about because it meant salvation for more persons:

(2 Peter 3:14, 15) 14 Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation. . .

(Revelation 7:9, 10) 9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

So I'm not saying we are wrong to read various parts of Revelation with a special meaning we give it for our own day, but we should not forget that they also had an urgent and special meaning for Christians throughout all ages.