When Did Jesus Secure Full Kingdom Power? Revisited

[JW Insider]

18 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

There seems to be an unecessarily extreme position set out in this debate. It appears to be assumed that the idea of Jesus "becoming" king at a date considerably later than the time of his being " exalted to the right hand of God " excludes him being a king in the interim period.

I think you understand my position from previous discussions, but I will clarify. I don't hold to that unnecessarily extreme position. I assume that Jesus can "become" king again at a date considerably later than the time when he is first exalted to the right hand of God. I believe he was made King in 33 CE, but I also believe that what holds true for Jehovah should also hold true for Jesus: that there can indeed be events and accomplishments of that Kingdom after 33 CE for which we could say again say that "Jesus has become King."

In a previous discussion the point was about whether it was OK to say that Jesus had not yet secured full Kingdom power in 33 CE. And that is the primary question behind the OP here, too. I think it would be wrong to say that he didn't have full authority (power) in 33 CE if Jesus made a specific point of telling us that he did in Matthew 28:18:

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." - KJV

"Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: 'All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. . . .' " - NWT

Imagine how little sense it would make if someone claimed that an earthly ruler did not have the authority to do something just because he hadn't done it yet. What if they said any of the following things?

• "Julius Caesar does not yet have the authority to invade Gaul because he hasn't done it yet."
• "Caesar Augustus was just crowned and enthroned as the Emperor, but let's not call him Emperor until some point in the future when he takes some specific action we are waiting for."

So when Jesus is called the King of Kings (another term for Emperor) the exact point is made in 1 Timothy: that even though he has not made all his power manifest yet, he is still already holding all that power, and will manifest it at the appointed time.

(1 Timothy 6:13-15) 13 Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

Also, since Paul mentions the "fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate" it might be good to review that declaration in total:

(Matthew 27:11) 11 Jesus now stood before the governor, and the governor put the question to him: “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus replied: “You yourself say it.”

That's the entire declaration that Matthew, Mark and Luke chose to mention. And therefore it could have been the entire declaration that Timothy would likely be aware of, since it was quite possible John had not likely been written yet. John adds just a little more to it:

(John 18:36, 37) 36 Jesus answered: “My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.” 37 So Pilate said to him: “Well, then, are you a king?” Jesus answered: “You yourself are saying that I am a king.. . ."

So that "declaration" itself was about Jesus' kingship. (And this was, of course, a few days before his resurrection and ascension.)

 

[Evacuated]

This extract from the Insight book article on "Kingdom of God" sums up for me the manner in which Jesus could be both a king on his return to the heavens in 33CE, and King later on when heading up the long-promised Messianic Kingdom of God.

“The Kingdom of the Son of His Love.” Ten days after Jesus’ ascension to heaven, on Pentecost of 33 C.E., his disciples had evidence that he had been “exalted to the right hand of God” when Jesus poured out holy spirit upon them. (Ac 1:8, 9; 2:1-4, 29-33) The “new covenant” thus became operative toward them, and they became the nucleus of a new “holy nation,” spiritual Israel.—Heb 12:22-24; 1Pe 2:9, 10; Ga 6:16.
Christ was now sitting at his Father’s right hand and was the Head over this congregation. (Eph 5:23; Heb 1:3; Php 2:9-11) The Scriptures show that from Pentecost 33 C.E. onward, a spiritual kingdom was set up over his disciples. When writing to first-century Christians at Colossae, the apostle Paul referred to Jesus Christ as already having a kingdom: “[God] delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.”—Col 1:13; compare Ac 17:6, 7.
Christ’s kingdom from Pentecost of 33 C.E. onward has been a spiritual one ruling over spiritual Israel, Christians who have been begotten by God’s spirit to become the spiritual children of God. (Joh 3:3, 5, 6) When such spirit-begotten Christians receive their heavenly reward, they will no longer be earthly subjects of the spiritual kingdom of Christ, but they will be kings with Christ in heaven.—Re 5:9, 10.
“Kingdom of Our Lord and of His Christ.” The apostle John, writing toward the close of the first century C.E., foresaw through a divine revelation the future time when Jehovah God, by means of his Son, would make a new expression of divine rulership. At that time, as in the time of David’s bringing the Ark up to Jerusalem, it would be said that Jehovah ‘has taken his great power and begun ruling as king.’ This would be the time for loud voices in heaven to proclaim: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”—Re 11:15, 17; 1Ch 16:1, 31.
It is “our Lord,” the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, who asserts his authority over “the kingdom of the world,” setting up a new expression of his sovereignty toward our earth. He gives to his Son, Jesus Christ, a subsidiary share in that Kingdom, so that it is termed “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ.” This Kingdom is of greater proportions and bigger dimensions than “the kingdom of the Son of his love,” spoken of at Colossians 1:13. “The kingdom of the Son of his love” began at Pentecost 33 C.E. and has been over Christ’s anointed disciples; “the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ” is brought forth at the end of “the appointed times of the nations” and is over all mankind on earth.—Lu 21:24.
 

[Evacuated]

On 2/28/2017 at 0:18 PM, Melinda Mills said:

I don't remember it ever being an important part of our doctrine but I can look it up.

Did you get time to do this?

As far as I can see, with reference to Stephen's vision at Acts 7:54-56, we do not appear to have attached significance to his sight of Jesus "standing"  other than as confirmation of Jesus heavenly resurrection and an encouragement to him.

This was a significant occasion in that Stephen was the first to testify based on vision that Jesus had indeed returned to the right hand of Jehovah in the heavens as promised in Ps.110. He was also the first Christian martyr.

His entrusting of his spirit to Jesus indicated the intensity of the vision, and his appreciation for Jesus' heavenly posiition and active role in the provision of the resurrection. The experience greatly fortified him at that critical moment, and contributed to maintaining his demeanour before his persecutors as it was reported earlier that "they saw that his face was like an angel’s face" Acts 6:15.

*** w04 8/1 p. 8 par. 3 Jehovah Reveals His Glory to Humble Ones ***
For Stephen, this spectacular vision reaffirmed Jesus’ position as God’s Son and the Messiah. It fortified humble Stephen and served to assure him that he had Jehovah’s favor.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Did you get time to do this?

Yes. It's from a set of "Gilead Notes" - Ulysses V. Glass, May 1978. Nothing ever published. I was thinking Sermon Outlines or Make Sure of All Things so I looked in one and couldn't find it, but remembered that Glass's Gilead Notes are typed up about the same way, in kind of an outline form.

"Stephen not praying to Christ, addressing Christ in vision like John, Christ standing indicates vision is future"

Thanks for going to the trouble of looking it up.

[Evacuated]

1 minute ago, JW Insider said:

Christ standing indicates vision is future"

? Doesn't seem to be the spirit of how we understand this currently?

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Doesn't seem to be the spirit of how we understand this currently?

Doesn't seem to match anything I can find published. But sometimes these points go back to Watchtowers prior to the Watchtower Library (pre-1950). The notes are also loaded with type-antitype teachings, some of which I had never heard of, but might go back prior to 1950.

[JW Insider]

On 2/28/2017 at 7:16 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

I must recognize, this is an "entrenched truth" for me. I find it difficult change my mind because, after a lot of years, my neurons and dendrites have a lot of highways in the direction of thinking that:

·        Jesus went to heaven and sat down (waiting, not actively ruling)

·        Jesus would be crowned, and his kingdom would begin at a later date

I'm sure you are right. About the entrenched dendrites, that is. It's a very rational-sounding scenario. I also find it very appealing. Jesus is appointed, but told to sit and wait. Then 1,881 years later, he stands and begins ruling. It's as if we really can no longer imagine that a King can actually rule while sitting down on a throne (even though it's the way Jehovah is depicted when He rules as King). We have this idea entrenched that Jesus can't really begin ruling, for real, until he's allowed to stand up. It makes sense as long as we can think of Jesus as a child whose father just told him to sit there and be quiet until he tells you it's OK to stand up.

But that's kind of a "smart-aleck" reason and carries very little weight with any of us. A better reason to break away from our traditional thinking is found in the Bible itself. It's a fairly quick process:

1. We have to remind ourselves why Jesus is "waiting." We find the answer in the same verse that gives us the "waiting" idea in the first place:

   • (Hebrews 10:12, 13) But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God, from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.

2. So Jesus is waiting from the time he sat down at the right hand of God. (I assume you agree this was in 33 C.E.) But for how long was he waiting? Until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet. And how long would that last? Obviously, until the last enemy death is brought to nothing. (I assume you agree that this is most likely at the end of the thousand-year reign, and I assume you believe that the thousand-year reign is still future.)

   • (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) ²⁴ Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. ²⁵ For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. ²⁶ And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. ²⁷ For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. ²⁸ But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

   • (Revelation 20:14, 15) ¹⁴ And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. ¹⁵ Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

   • (Revelation 20:4-6) . . .And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. ⁵ (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

3. Therefore, Jesus is still waiting until his enemies, including death, are made a footstool for his feet. He is waiting until the appropriate time when all is finished, and he can "hand over the Kingdom to his God and Father."

   So, this particular idea of "waiting" does not refer to inactivity, or waiting until he becomes an actively ruling King. I would think it might be something like U.S. President Abraham Lincoln actively sending men into a "Civil War," yet at the same time also waiting until the war would be over. According to Paul, "sitting at God's right hand" is the equivalent of "ruling as king."

[ComfortMyPeople]

25 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

So, this particular idea of "waiting" does not refer to inactivity, or waiting until he becomes an actively ruling King. I would think it might be something like U.S. President Abraham Lincoln actively sending men into a "Civil War," yet at the same time also waiting until the war would be over. According to Paul, "sitting at God's right hand" is the equivalent of "ruling as king."

Your argument (I mean, the Bible argument) is very solid. Christ is not waiting -inactively- until the end of the millennium.

So, perhaps, the idea you and Eoin have pointed out, that Jesus Christ “has begun to reign” or “become king” could refer to some special moments in the development of God’s purposes: Da 7, Re 12 and so.

Thanks for sharing these valuable thoughts!

 

[Melinda Mills]

I started a search this morning but couldn't find anything. Glad JWI found the notes and the discussion is continuing.

[JW Insider]

On 2/28/2017 at 7:16 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

I’d like to point out the similarities in the appearance, as reflected in the pictures, in both situations: when inspecting the congregations and in his final war against the enemies. But there is a paramount difference: the crown. . . .

. . .The three times he is seen with crown in the Scriptures

Errors and omissions excepted, there are only three accounts where Jesus is seen crowned.

The issue of the "crown" is probably one of those issues that perfectly fits the point that Eoin made. By the way, I still agree that the argument you were making from Romans 4:17 will be important to the discussion, and the verses that you and Melinda applied to that argument are valid. I'm not dismissing it, even though I didn't think that Romans 4:17 was the right verse to find the foundation of that idea. But that was a trivial side point. Still, it made more sense to start with this idea that Eoin presented, because it is a better bridge for resolving the apparent contradiction that Jesus begins a kingship in 33 and the kingdom also comes at a later date, too. As Eoin put it, this was not an "either-or" situation. 

That said, a king receiving a crown even after he has been declared the king is possible even among human kings, and likely would provide a scenario that indicates the exact idea of a special occasion when the Kingdom achieves a special milestone. This is exactly the idea behind "Jehovah becoming King" even though it was obvious he is already an eternal King.

You did leave out a mention of a crown that I think is crucial to getting a truer picture:

(Hebrews 1:2-4,8; 2:5,9) ² Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. ³ He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. ⁴ So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. . . . ⁸ But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. . . . ^2:5 For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking. . . .9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,

I believe our traditional teaching makes it too easy for us to miss the point that even words like "subject" "obeisance" and "Christ" [Messiah] were also references to kingship. In Jesus' day, the term Christ (Messiah) was exclusively tied to the royal heir of King David, of the tribe of Judah. See Peter's speech in Acts 2, for example. Or, more simply:

(Matthew 22:42) “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s.. . ."

The book of Hebrews clearly includes a commentary on Psalm 110 and appropriately expands on the glorious royal imagery of a throne, a crown, a scepter, glorious garments, and royal "subjects" (angels subject to him as ministers, doing obeisance to him). That's the basis of the first two chapters. Later chapters explain how this king can also be a priest according to the manner of Melchizedek based on Psalm 110:4. It was already understood from chapters one and two that Jesus was a King. So here's what Hebrews says about Melchizedek:

(Hebrews 7:2, 14) . . .First, his name is translated “King of Righteousness,” and then also king of Saʹlem, that is, “King of Peace.” . . . 14 For it is clear that our Lord has descended from Judah, yet Moses said nothing about priests coming from that tribe.

So it was clear that Jesus was king, but less clear how "Scripturally" he could also be a priest. What is the conclusion after the first few chapters of Hebrews show that this King is also a priest?

(Hebrews 8:1)  Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

I wanted to mention that, based on the idea from Romans 4:17 (or elsewhere), that it really doesn't matter so much about the exact chronology of saying that the Kingdom was among them in Jesus' day, or when he sat down with God as his throne in 33 CE, or when he again arrives to be seen in the Kingdom "present" or Kingdom "coming." But based on the language of Hebrews 1 through 8 for example, it doesn't seem right to minimize the kingdom in 33 and then highlight the Kingdom as being so much more important at a later date. To me the question boils down to whether we really need to minimize the meaning of Matthew 28:18 (among other verses). In effect, we say that Jesus didn't really mean to use the word "all" here:

(Matthew 28:18) . . .: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

And for further consideration:

(John 17:1-5) . . .Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you have given him authority over all flesh [authority over all mankind, NWT footnote], so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

[Melinda Mills]

“So, this particular idea of "waiting" does not refer to inactivity, or waiting until he becomes an actively ruling King.” – JWInsider

A very interesting point.

======

(Would also like to put a small bit of seasoning in the pot. See if it is tasty.)

Heaven is not a place of inactivity

I would like to posit some of the things Jesus did in 33CE and thereafter. .

(John 5:16, 17) . ..For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things during the Sabbath. 17 But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.”

Jesus continued his work in heaven; the anointed too continue their work in heaven.

Some of Jesus’ work from heaven prior to millennium rule

So his work includes empowering his disciples with holy spirit (Pentecost), drawing people, converting them (John 14:6) (Saul – Acts 9) and appointing directly and indirectly, directing (“come over into Macedonia and help us”), overseeing, settling issues (Acts 15), counseling, commending, revealing the future, etc. (Rev 2-3; Book of Revelation), preserving and disseminating the Bible, preserving the wheat-like Christians, giving insight into Bible prophecies, inspecting his spiritual temple, restoring true worship; progressive teaching and training (John 16:12); legally establishing the good news by means of court victories, subduing nations to get preaching done globally; commissioning angels directing preaching work (Rev 14:6)

Matthew 28:19, 20) Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

(John 14:15-17) 15 “If you love me, you will observe my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you.

(John 16:12, 13) 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13 However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (Acts 9:14, 15) . . .” 15 But the Lord said to him: “Go! because this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel.

(1 Timothy 2:7) For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of nations in the matter of faith and truth.

Anointed ones who are resurrected instantaneously also work

(Revelation 14:13) 13 And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”

*** re chap. 30 p. 211 pars. 20 “Babylon the Great Has Fallen!” *** “… Afterward, those of the anointed ones who die during the Lord’s day are promised a special privilege. Their resurrection to spirit life in heaven is instantaneous, “in the twinkling of an eye.” (1 Corinthians 15:52) How marvelous this is! And their works of righteousness continue right on in the heavenly realm”.

[Evacuated]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And for further consideration:

I would be interested in how you see Rev.11:15 and Rev.11:17 Fitting in with this discussion.

"The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever." Rev 11:15

“We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king." Rev 11:17