Why does the bible say the great crowd is in heaven?

[Matthew9969]

Why does the bible say the great crowd is in heaven?

 

[Melinda Mills]

*** Bible Citations ***
Rev 7:9-10  After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 
 

*** re chap. 20 pp. 123-124 A Multitudinous Great Crowd ***
In Heaven or on Earth?
12 How do we know that “standing before the throne” does not mean that the great crowd is in heaven? There is much clear evidence on this point. For example, the Greek word here translated “before” (e·noʹpi·on) literally means “in [the] sight [of]” and is used several times of humans on earth who are “before” or “in the sight of” Jehovah. (1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:14; Romans 14:22; Galatians 1:20) On one occasion when the Israelites were in the wilderness, Moses said to Aaron: “Say to the entire assembly of the sons of Israel, ‘Come near before Jehovah, because he has heard your murmurings.’” (Exodus 16:9) The Israelites did not have to be transported to heaven in order to stand before Jehovah on that occasion. (Compare Leviticus 24:8.) Rather, right there in the wilderness they stood in Jehovah’s view, and his attention was on them.
13 Additionally, we read: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory . . . all the nations will be gathered before him.” The whole human race will not be in heaven when this prophecy is fulfilled. Certainly, those who “depart into everlasting cutting-off” will not be in heaven. (Matthew 25:31-33, 41, 46) Instead, mankind stands on earth in Jesus’ view, and he turns his attention to judging them. Similarly, the great crowd is “before the throne and before the Lamb” in that it stands in the view of Jehovah and his King, Christ Jesus, from whom it receives a favorable judgment.
 

[Witness]

The Great Crowd is a segment of the “144,000” -  the anointed remnant to come out of the Great Tribulation, victorious.  Rev 7:14,15  They are the last of the sealed priests to be added to God’s Temple.   Why should God change his ancient decrees about who it is, that stands before the throne of God?  It’s quite a stretch for Wt. to say a “great crowd” does this from earth. They know only priests are allowed to render sacred service in God’s temple; so they fabricated another story and quite a doozy, to mislead millions with untruth. 2 Pet 2:3; Heb.10:11; 8:1,2; 1 Pet 2:5; Rev 7:15

“No one is to enter the temple of the Lord except the priests and Levites on duty; they may enter because they are consecrated, but all the others are to observe the Lord’s command not to enter.^” 2 Chron 23:6

“The duty of the Levites was to help Aaron’s descendants in the service of the temple of the Lord: to be in charge of the courtyards, the side rooms, the purification of all sacred things and the performance of other duties at the house of God. 

They were also to stand every morning to thank and praise the Lord. They were to do the same in the evening”  1 Chron 23:28-30

“But only you and your sons may serve as priests in connection with everything at the altar and inside the curtain. I am giving you the service of the priesthood as a gift. Anyone else who comes near the sanctuary is to be put to death.”  Num 18:7

“They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”  Heb 8:5

The coming Kingdom of God results from the sealing of the last number of “living stones” into the Temple. 1 Pet 5:9,10; Zech 4:7-9  THEN, “New Jerusalem” is complete and comes “down out of heaven” to both rule and serve mankind.  Rev 3:12; 21:2  Revelation is primarily about this remnant conquering Satan and his last evil ploy. 2 Thess 2:9-12 They join the “144,000” who stand for Truth – blameless, with no lie found in their mouths. Rev 14:5 

Rev 20:4-6 mentions the “144,000” reign with Christ during the thousand years, which started when Jesus ascended into heaven.  (Rev 5:9,10) These were never overpowered by the Beasts, to receive the “mark”. Rev 20:4 (Rev 13:15-17)  After the thousand years, the Great Tribulation begins when Satan is released.  Rev 20:2,3,7; 12:12,17  This is the time period when the last of the “144,000” (the number itself represents Truth), the remnant, are under attack by the two beasts of Rev 13.  Those that are victorious, are the “great” crowd – no one knows how many, with “great” having a further meaning than just a number.  Rev 11:1-11

And since the Watchtower has admitted that Gog and Magog, and the Beasts of Revelation are most likely the same identities, this also signifies that the thousand years are ended.

From Wt 13/11/15 pp. 16-20
“The prophecy about seven shepherds and eight dukes has its major fulfillment in our day. The citizens of ancient Jerusalem were attacked by the Assyrians. IN THE NEAR FUTURE, Jehovah’s apparently vulnerable people will come under attack from the modern-day “Assyrian,” WHOSE INTENT WILL BE TO WIPE THEM OUT. (caps are mine) The Scriptures refer to that attack as well as the attack of ‘Gog of Magog,’ the attack of “the king of the north,” and the attack of “the kings of the earth.” (Ezek. 38:2, 10-13; Dan. 11:40, 44, 45; Rev. 17:14; 19:19) Do these represent separate attacks? Not necessarily. The Bible could be referring to the same attack under different names.” 

By saying this, they are admitting there is no battle to face, no deception by Satan, a thousand years after Armageddon.  They can’t have it both ways, but they do try…

“We are told that AT THE END OF THE 1,000 YEARS, Satan will be released from the abyss, and “he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war.” w15 5/15 p. 29-p. 30 par. 5

The first Wt. quote above, states this attack would happen in the “near future”, and is also the Beast of Rev 19:19, which is the same Beast of Rev 13:1, who parleys with the Beast from the Earth/false prophet – but only for a little while longer. Rev 13:11; 17:15-17 

 Please, don’t let the Watchtower fool you!  Surely, it is obvious who fits the identities of the two Beasts - one a false prophet and the other a spirit-breathed/directed "image" - that come against the anointed remnant who are gathered together in the Watchtower. Rev 20:7-10; 13:5-7, 11,14,15

[Witness]

I wonder what is more confusing to you, @Nana Fofana, Watchtower's contrary doctrine about when Gog and Magog/Beasts of Rev 13 appear, or my words about the Great Crowd.  I would hope you can see the hypocrisy in the two quotes made by the Wt.

Simply put, the Great Crowd are the remaining ones of the woman’s seed (Rev 12:17) that come out of the Great Tribulation, victorious and on the side of truth. 

 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! Rev 19:1

And to her (the Bride Rev 19:7) it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.  Rev 19:8 (compare Rev 7:9,13,14;6:11)

They take on the role of priests “before the throne”

“You are to appoint Aaron and his sons to carry out their priestly responsibilities, but any unauthorized person who comes near the sanctuary is to be put to death.” Num 3:10

Judgment day is now as Wt. will certainly tell you – but there is no other period of judgment to come after Armageddon, as the Wt. will have you believe.  We are judged once, on our dedication to pure truth and standards of God’s Word. John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15: John 12:31

“But as it is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ²¹ For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. ²² For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive”

We can be spiritually “dead” or spiritually “alive” at this moment. (Eph 2:5)  This is not a temporary period of being “alive” for a mere thousand years, with the threat of losing eternal life to another test of Satan.  Once we recognize and follow the only Master, Christ, we are given the hope of eternal life as long as we are obedient to God’s Word.   1 Pet 1:14

But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at his coming, those who belong to Christ. (the rest of Christ’s sheep/God’s children)   Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he abolishes all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign until he puts all his enemies under his feet. ²⁶ The last enemy to be abolished is death.  For God has put everything under his feet.  (which happened in the first century Ps 110:1,2)  Now when it says “everything” is put under him, it is obvious that he who puts everything under him is the exception. ²⁸ When everything is subject to Christ, then the Son himself will also be subject to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all.”  1 Cor 15:20-28

Why would the Wt. direct the identity of the Great Crowd away from the anointed?  Well, why do they feel they can replace the priesthood with spiritual “Gentiles”.  Why do they comment,

“Jehovah’s holy spirit helps his servants to be humble, not proud. (Colossians 3:12) So anointed ones do not think that they are better than others”

If within a marriage, a husband is a doctor and a wife is a stay-at-home mom, should the husband feel he is any better than his wife?  We are all worthless slaves, but making such a point adds fuel to Wt.’s next comment –

  They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else. Wt 16/1 pp 20-26

This is most certainly, a lie.  Each step the organization takes to make such accusations, tramples the anointed priesthood into submission. Matt 24:15 If, through an anointing one receives Holy Spirit and the laws of God inscribed on their heart, it is obvious they have been designated for an important assignment, and equipped to do so. 2 Cor 3:3; Rom 2:28,29; 1 John 2:20,21  Yet, Wt’s leaders make their own rules and defy God’s laws, by “trampling” those who carry them in their heart.  They have built their own Zion, disregarding the true Zion and Temple of God. 1 Cor 3:16,17;  Eph 2:20-22; Heb 12:22

 There is only one, already established, Holy Mountain, which Peter and James received a glimpse of when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus in Luke 9:30-35; 2 Pet 1:18

Every lie said about this priesthood keeps them blind to who they are, what their true identity is, their dedication to only one Master, and how they are to stand with Christ in this battle of truth against lies.  After all, most JWs have no clue that the coming of the Kingdom of God hinges on the faithfulness of the anointed to one Master, Christ. The laws written on their heart lay dormant, and their obligation to teach what is already placed in their heart is left untouched by such words stated above by Wt’s wicked slave. Every single JW should staunchly reject the counterfeit Zion established in the realm of Satan, and seek out the true Zion, built on the anointed Body of Christ, and authorized by the Father.    

[John Houston]

Nana, it comes down to 'common sense' those who are of this ruling class, sitting on thrones, are ruling over someone. This 'great crowd' or multitude which is before them gladly praising this,arrangement because of the relief from sin and death. Not confusing, just simple 'common sense'. As John said, use,of discernment!

[Witness]

18 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

What honestly confuses me is that the things you say seem to bear almost no relation to Jehovah's witness beliefs, so that frankly, I have a hard time believing you ever were a Jehovah's witness, yet you and some others seem to think the WT is the center of the universe when it comes to evil conspiratorial oppression on the planet.  All of this is so extreme and getting absolutely frantic in its intensity from my perspective.

I'm not familiar with any of your 'brilliant'  theological innovations, or maybe 'throwback' beliefs would be the term I want, yet I'm 'responsible' now, having been 'informed' of them?,  to confront, stand up to, maybe go into the full time opposition work against people towards whom I feel nothing but admiration and gratitude, on the basis of all your [plural you, concerning whom it may] CASES NOT MADE against them!?!   

1

I can assure you, I was a JW for over 32 years.

Are “Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs” in line with the Bible’s beliefs?  Which of the above quotes I presented by the organization is in line with the Bible?  It is hard to determine, isn’t it?  When “new light” fails, was that particular belief based on scripture? 

The opinion of evil conspiratorial oppression varies with the individual who leaves the organization.   People leave the organization for various reasons – Many cannot tolerate the continual changing doctrine that at the time is called “truth”.  Many realize that salvation comes only through Christ, and not an organization.   Many have not sinned, but are treated as if they have.  You recognize Christ as our Savior, so why would individuals be shunned or disfellowshipped for holding to that belief?   Because, there is more – the organization teaches salvation is only possible by connecting with it, contrary to Jesus’ teachings to worship in spirit and truth.   The “image” that the organization is salvation, is idolatry. 

Do you know this is also the reason why anointed ones are disfellowshipped? They choose to slave for one Master, not an earthly Master.   All of this was prophesied to happen in the latter days. Rev 13:1,4,7,11,14-17

Matt 24:15 has a second fulfillment, a symbolic one, and is verified in Rev 11:1,2; 2 Thess 2:3,4 and Rev 13:5-7;16:13,14,15   The Roman Gentile armies desolated Jerusalem and the temple – “a holy place” – and the only holy place Jesus or God recognized, since the prophecy was uttered from the mouth of Jesus.    While the Watchtower teaches the second fulfillment is with the United Nations (because of one plaque since removed), how can that be true?  Whatever was holy to God in the first fulfillment must be the same in the second fulfillment.  Today’s Temple or “holy place” are the anointed ones.  Revelation tells us what the “disgusting thing” is – “Gentiles” standing in the Temple of God, the Temple comprised of the anointed ones, spiritual “Jews”. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16  They are the living Temple and dwelling of God.   This authentic priesthood has been “trampled”.  Elders have been authorized with power to disfellowship and expect obedience from the “holy place”, God’s Temple priests – God’s dwelling.  Blasphemous words as what I quoted are said about them.  WHO in the organization actually discerns what God’s dwelling is?  Do you?  Does the JW that sits next to you during a meeting know?  Not likely, because it is taught that God’s dwelling is the organization and the buildings owned by the Watchtower. I was anointed around my baptism, but I kept it quiet out of fear and ignorance, not partaking, speaking of it only to another newbie who knew as little as I did. I shelved it so deep, I forgot about it.   For my entire time in the organization, I didn’t know what the Temple of God was until I turned to Christ who opened my spiritual eyes. Rev 3:18  Pearl Doxsey helped me through this transition – she, too, was oppressed during her years in the organization; yet, we are not unusual cases.  Oppression on the anointed ones, comes in many forms. 

THIS is the reason why it is imperative to leave the Watchtower.  “So when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place” (let the reader understand), ^ “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains.”  Matt 24:15,16

“When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that its desolation has come near. ^21 Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Those inside the city must leave it, and those who are in the country must not enter it, ^22 because these are days of vengeance to fulfill all the things that are written”  Luke 21:21-22

“When you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be” (let the reader understand), “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains.”  Mark 13:14

The elder body is the abomination of desolation – a false priesthood standing in and over the priesthood/Temple of God.   If we perceive this abomination, the spiritual oppression that takes discernment,  of God’s anointed ones, "let the reader understand", we are to flee.  It is getting intense, and it will only progress in intensity.  

Many, as is this woman, are incensed with the organization for its treatment of victims and the harm it causes, as this news article portrays  https://www.christianpost.com/news/woman-who-killed-self-entire-family-shunned-by-jehovahs-witnesses-for-sending-kids-to-college-218658/  See the video at the bottom.

Armageddon is fought on the low plain of decision, and although Satan will attempt to stage a decoy; the true war is the battle between one’s acceptance of truth, or lies.  Joel 3:14-16

Rev 11:1-3

[Witness]

7 hours ago, John Houston said:

Nana, it comes down to 'common sense' those who are of this ruling class, sitting on thrones, are ruling over someone. This 'great crowd' or multitude which is before them gladly praising this,arrangement because of the relief from sin and death. Not confusing, just simple 'common sense'. As John said, use,of discernment!

John, Rev 1:4; 4:5,6; 4:10; 7:11,15; 8:3; 14;3,5  all speak of activity in heaven “before the throne”.

In Rev 7:11, there are angels, elders and four living creatures before the throne.  This is stated immediately after the great multitude sing praises before the throne.  With these various identities before the throne and most obviously in heaven; so, too, are the great multitude – Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them  Rev 7:15  Only the priesthood is allowed to serve God in the Temple day and night, which Temple they are, and the dwelling of God.   1 Cor 3:16,17    

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

This is blatantly fake and  I imagine that you know this.

I don't doubt, however,  that your self-righteous outrage, reading this, will be genuine. 

That's how thoroughly self-deluded I think you are about "Sein Kampf".

No, this is not fake; in fact, I am rather surprised you haven't seen the news articles.  I'll post a few here.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2018/02/16/4-dead-keego-harbor-murder-suicide/345756002/

https://nypost.com/2018/02/21/woman-shunned-by-jehovahs-witnesses-kills-entire-family-cops/

I am not enraged, only deeply saddened, knowing this is not the first horrible outcome from shunning individuals for no scriptural reason.   The woman, on the other hand, is most certainly enraged.

 

[Witness]

On 3/14/2018 at 10:52 AM, Nana Fofana said:

That's how thoroughly self-deluded I think you are about "Sein Kampf".

You know, besides the vendetta that Satan has by putting to use a wicked slave to silence God’s holy priesthood, perhaps we should change "Sein Kampf" to "Mein Kampf".  

https://www.watchtowerlies.com/linked/watchtower_investments_in_armament_companies.pdf

Click “Ctrl F” keys, type in “Watchtower” in the upper search bar in this document:

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/922330/000106299302000371/form10k.txt

Any reason you can think of as to why Watchtower owns stock in the military?  Can the Watchtower truly say it has beat its swords into plowshares?  What sort of spirit would motivate them to do this?  

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Nana Fofana said:

People are not "shunned" by Jehovah's witnesses "for sending their kids to college".

Yes, they are.  In your 2015 convention, shunning was spoken about and the various reason why to.  A few were denying Watchtower's doctrines, as well as speaking against the GB.  It's pretty clear what Anthony Morris thinks about higher education.  So, if a JW chooses to pursue higher education, this gives ground for shunning the individual.  

Obviously, the family in the news not only put their children in college but walked away from the organization to do it.  When my middle son was college age, we enrolled him into the local junior college.  He wanted to pursue geology like his father.  This happened while we were still in the organization.  Eventually, he quit abruptly and we were left puzzled as to why.  Not until he was married did he tell us that an elder told him he should be ashamed for pursuing secular education; an elder he had put his trust in.  On top of this, his peers kept ridiculing him for attending college.  Under pressure, he quit.  This is how shunning begins.

The topic of higher education is not a small matter with the Wt. Of course, it sends men to colleges to become lawyers; primarily to protect their material investments and to successfully fight their ongoing cases of child abuse.

Anthony Morris stated, “we have to careful that this system does not mold or shape our thinking”.  Isn’t this what the GB continually does? Shape individuals according to their opinions?   Shouldn’t it be up to the person what they choose what to do about “higher learning”?   Should one withdraw their love from someone, shutting off all contact because of it?  
 

 

[Witness]

4 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

I know I've fallen behind on responding to you, but here's what I've wanted to ask you, I now realize, now that I've seen this [and sorry if you've already answered.  -I didn't see it]-

 

This was my answer to JWI:

Jesus gave us the indications of his coming with signs to look for, which Satan is well aware of.  There are two types of “signs” that would exist in the time of the end – physical, which would be found in the physical world of Satan; and the spiritual fulfillment (Rev 1:1).

The threat to Satan’s power and dominion are the anointed ones; He demands to test each one for their faithfulness to God, since the victorious ones will receive what he has now, dominion over the earth. 1 John 5:19  God allows this test just as he allowed Satan to test Job.  Luke 22:31; Acts 14:22; Matt 24:22,23; Luke 13:23,24; Matt 7:14; Mark 13:13; John 16:2; Rev 2:9,10,13,17,7,24,26,28; 6:9,11; 3:5,9,12,21,22  

God didn’t set up the test, which is seen in Job 1:12 - And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”

Which is verified in James 1:13 – “No one undergoing a trial should say, "I am being tempted by God," since God is not tempted by evil, and he himself doesn't tempt anyone.”

God gives plenty of warning for us to look for if we care to serve him; but Satan will twist the signs in order to deceive, by concentrating on the fleshly, earthly fulfillment.    We are our own judge in a sense, by choosing either dominion, that of God’s or Satan’s.  If our heart desires to fully, faithfully serve only God and Christ, not men with their earthly ambitions, we are helped to see through the deception.  1 Cor 10:13; 1:8; Matt 6:13; 2 Pet 2:9  

Deut 30:15-19 

Would Satan test the anointed in the time of the end by what is already seen prominently in the world and recognized as dangerous by most people?  From the blessing of Holy Spirit received during an anointing, the initial truth presented by the organization is enough bait to bring in the anointed ones. 

RevelationÂ’s prophesy plays out through the existence of the organization.

Each anointed one has faced its “beasts” or tests demanded by Satan, but not all anointed ones succeed in “conquering” them. Usually, among God’s people, the case is the minority repent for their wrongdoings.  The fourth Beast of Daniel, is the last and most deceptive, Satan’s last military ruse to tempt and destroy the anointed ones and any companions who fall into the trap. It IS the most deceptive since Satan knows his end is imminent. Dan 7:19; Rev 13:1-4  These tests are no different than what Jesus went through to gain victory over death. Satan uses the same allurement that he proposed to Jesus; power and authority, and the love of physical pleasures. Luke 4:5-7 Those in Christ, who desire to follow in his footsteps, must also gain victory over Satan’s offers, which are all found in the beauty and the hum of the organization. The Wt. says the attack by Gog and Magog will happen by nations in the world.  But notice in Ezek 38:10-12, Satan’ evil plan comes against a peaceful people, who (apparently) dwell in safely. What does the organization offer, but God’s protection?  Rev 20:7-9 says the anointed are gathered and surrounded, which they presently are. And who is it that fills them with deceitful lies, such as pyramidology, “this generation”, 1914 and failed dates and many more deceptive teaching, but a false prophet, an organization/Beast/ and the source, Satan?  Rev 16:12-16

2 Thess 2:9-12 states that the “evil plan” of Ezek 38 is

 a strong (“effectual working operation, In the NT used only of superhuman power, whether of God or of the Devil”)

delusion. (a wandering, a straying about, one led astray from the right way, roams hither and thither, mental straying, error, wrong opinion relative to morals or religion, error which shows itself in action, a wrong mode of acting, error, that which leads into error, deceit or fraud)

The nations of the world will not offer a lying delusion to trap an unsuspecting people, who already feel they have found the truth.   

Not all anointed “kings of the earth” leave the organization as we see with the parable of the “10 virgins”, which was in my post here, (Coincidence or Correlation) Monday at 10:34 am. They side with the Beast against Christ’s “kings” in the war of truth against lies.   Isa 10:19; Amos 7:1-6; Rev 19:19; Dan 11:35  (1 Cor 4:8; Rev 1:5; 5:9,10; Rev 21:24)

The blindness that comes over all anointed ones is instigated by the false prophet, cajoling them into complacency that the organization will provide for their safety as long as their obedience remains with the organization which is also projected as obedience to God and Christ. Matt 25:5; 1 Thess 5:2,3; Jer 14:13; Ezek 13:10,16)

What causes the blind to wake up?  They sense something wrong with the organization’s teachings, they do research, they pray for understanding of truth.  Through this awakening, the process of refinement begins for all…when they choose the right path, Christ.  Isa 59:10,19-21; Ezek 14:21-23; Rev 6:8; Prov 17:3  The majority, choose to remain comfortable in what they know and desire – the organization.

If I didn't make this clear, please tell me.