BETHEL'S BIG SECRET

[Dmitar]

32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Indeed, none of us were, however in regards to the events of Black Wall Street, not everyone was under the influence of the Jim Crow Laws, evident leading up to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. As for the other remark it is unlikely action or not, violence found it's way into some people's homes resulting in anyone in that area during that time to flee, if white, dangerous punishment, if black, regardless of sex/age, it will be far worse for them.

This would be a separate political issue that the Watchtower did not touch on with their article. Therefore, I'll make no reference to that kind of worldly event.

32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

It is absurd that there are those out there who would attest to re-writing segments in history just to fit their Agenda, and those of it are the obvious ones, the former EXJW in the video just simply outright deem the Bible Students racist without knowing as to why there was segregation institutions, likewise in regards to the events of Germany.

Active Witnesses other than here are aware of all the misleading agenda that former Jehovah's Witnesses have. However, as mentioned, some present Jehovah's Witnesses here, also follow suite. Therefore, for me, there is no distinction. This is where we part with an adverse opinion.

32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

The irony of all this, Witness, Pearl's acolyte, does not realize that this YouTuber has blocked anyone be it by him or those abusing the system from calling out the misleading information, which is a similar case to the events of 11/5/17, let alone what was in the video prior to the claim of misleading. Even here, misinformation has tainted the latter so much so she isn't unable to critical think or discern if the YouTuber was of deception or not. The very reason I refer this to Glasgow because a similar thing was done, as is a recent case regarding a Leftist.

This is a usual tactic from many apostate sites. Just like it is here, those that oppose the Watchtower have a hard time when they are corrected. They cannot stand it. Especially those that have present ties with the institution.

32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, everyone should be able to understand history of these events, accurately because eventually, enemies will use their Agenda to change things; the onlookers are aware of this. This is a situation I, and others in the community of which I am from, dealing with/fight against with known information to refute Marxism; censorship being the biggest issue with us now.

Since I don't wish to extend my thought other than what was written about diversity, brotherhood, the strength and impact that had on Bible Students under the IBSA, I will leave it at that.

32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Other than that, all the examples addressed in that video was refuted, even the one pertaining to Archives, etc. The reason the latter continues is due to saving face, nothing more, making the video's claim vs the likes of Tulsa irrefutable, as with examples 2 and 3.

What was hidden and made alive because of political discourse, Black Wall Street, remains a dark side for American History. What positive message a Christian can gather from such darkness can be found in scripture.

[Dmitar]

What was the condition of churches after World War 1?

CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT

The increased activism by churches in the mid-1960 s was actually the fourth major phase of their advocacy for civil rights in America. The first was during the abolitionist era preceding the Civil War, and the next significant watershed was just after World War 1, when the widespread racial violence of 1917-1919 triggered the involvement of a number of church-related organizations, such as the Commission on Interracial Cooperation (1919) and denominational service and missionary organizations. Methodist women were distinctive between the wars for their commitment to racial justice. But while Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics and Episcopalians, among others, decried the racism and violence of this period, they did not de-segregate their seminaries or most of their local congregations.

After the escalation and tension of the Civil Rights movement?

CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT

By the mid-1950 s few structural changes had occurred and segregationists frequently appealed to the Bible for justification of their position. White citizens' councils, and even the Ku Klux Klan, had members who were active in churches. Nevertheless, the pendulum was swinging. Overt public violence in Birmingham (1963) and Selma (1965) had a marked impact on churches. Martin Luther King, Jr., wrote his "Letter from a Birmingham Jail," not only countering the criticisms by a group of white Jewish and Christian clergymen, but also emphasizing Christian responsibility toward civil and human rights. The passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act added momentum to the movement.

What shifted with the churches?

The peculiar problems and contributions of churches in the area of civil rights derived from the nature of the church itself. As African-American churches became the single most decisive factor in the nonviolent Civil Rights Movement, white congregations and clergy wrestled with the tension between their support of law and order and the direct action taken by movement leaders. Equally problematic was the apparent contradiction between the churches' message of love and their de facto segregation. But as time passed, church courts, assemblies and ministerial associations reflected the progress of civil rights in America. Presbyterians created a Commission on Religion and Race in 1963, and in 1965-1966 Prince A. Taylor, Jr., became the first African-American person to head the Methodist Council of Bishops. Episcopalians created the Episcopalian Society for Cultural and Racial Unity and by 1967 had established the Convention Special Program. Roman Catholics enlarged their already extensive programs in civil and human rights advocacy, as did several other church structures.

Most churches, whether African-American or white, remained separate. African-American churches wanted to retain their distinctive identity, and demographics also contributed to the pattern of separate congregational existence. In some ways dialog across denominational and racial lines increased. This was one of the most important results of the Civil Rights Movement for American churches. In retrospect it can be seen that religious faith was crucially important for the Civil Rights Movement. And in turn the progress of the movement exposed racism to a sharper theological critique, providing the historical context within which the beliefs and practices that had maintained segregation for centuries could be re-examined.

What should Christians consider, about racism, that can be applied to scripture?

[Srecko Sostar]

Comment on part of the video that moderator named as "Example 1". 

In this part of the video, the moderator illustrates a claim he made in a previous part called “3 Layers”. And he managed to show that most JWs do not have access to that part of the library that is outside the online library. I have proved by the example of the JW library (Croatian) that the JW online library does not have an older publication than 1981 and one brochure from 1976. The English-speaking area has access a little further into the past.
Of course, his statement that he "randomly picked up material" from the year 1900 is ridiculous. If he was preparing material for making such a presentation, he had to prepare it all in advance. But I guess that part of his “scenography” is for the purposes of presentation and the tension of anticipation. If someone wants to blame him for that thing, they can, and I won't defend him in that thing.

The JW publication on the subject (racism and segregation) is an illustration in which he tries to prove that today's younger JW generations (including the older ones, of course) are unable to access older editions of WT written material and therefore do not know what happened in the real historical situations that their organization and their fraternity went through.

The video in this part shows;
1) doctrinal interpretation and interpretation of the biblical text
2) the attitudes of the WT administration about the social and educational condition of a (black) part of  the church

3)colored congregations

There are probably as many as a hundred colored brethren on the Watch Tower lists, some of them very clear in the truth, and very earnest in its service, financially and otherwise. We have received letters from several of these, who had intended engaging in the Volunteer work, expressing surprise that in the call for Volunteers in the March 1st issue we restricted the inquiry to white Protestant churches. They rightly realized that we have not the slightest of race prejudice, and that we love the colored brethren with just the same warmth of heart that we love the white, and they queried therefore why such a distinction should be made in the call. The reason is that so far as we are able to judge, colored people have less education than whites— many of them quite insufficient to permit them to profit by such reading as we have to give forth. Our conclusion therefore is based upon the supposition that reading matter distributed to a colored congregation would more than half of it be utterly wasted, and a very small percentage indeed likely to yield good results. We advise, therefore, that where the Watch Tower literature is introduced to colored people it be not by promiscuous circulation, but only to those who give evidence of some ear for the truth.
We avoid, so far as possible, putting the pearls of present truth into the hands of the vicious and depraved, whites as well as blacks. - https://archive.org/details/1900ZionsWatchTower/page/n258/mode/1up?q=april+15

appendix:

4) white skin for all humans (possible solution how Lord will remove race and color distinction)  

DEAR BROTHER RUSSELL:-Possibly you may remember that when I was in Milwaukee some months ago I sent you a newspaper clipping regarding a colored man in Wilmington who had turned from black to white, through the loss of the pigment under his skin. I now enclose a clipping from the New York World of Sept. 9th, regarding a similar case at Parkersburg, W. Va. Do you not think these may possibly be granted as illustrations of how the Lord purposes to remove race and color distinctions during the "age of the ages"? - https://archive.org/details/1900ZionsWatchTower/page/n617/mode/1up?q=colored+brethren

 

There are no controversial issues in this part of the presentation, because the events were part of WT history, which can be concluded from the available WT text.
I guess there are fewer racial prejudices within JW congregations in America today. I guess this can also be attributed to the laws that allow people with different skin color to mix and to social climate in general (on other hand deep problems exists).

Some of you are defending, the historical fact, the segregation of WT congregations as necessity, in that part of American history, because they were conditioned by the state of American society and the laws that existed at the time. Of course, this is important to know. What is also important to know is the aspiration of WT in that time, and today, that one should listen to God more than people, even at the cost of one's own life. If we look from this aspect of the theology and doctrine of the WT organization, then we can comment that the then religious leadership, and thus the believers themselves as personally responsible for their behavior, still failed because they allowed themselves to be governed by circumstances, not by biblical principles. But that is all for human, isn't it?

[Srecko Sostar]

12 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The religous backing of the rifle baring neighbor was never cited, so assuming he is Christian, be it true or false, is not wise.

Perhaps armed neighbor was an atheist? It is ok for me if that make you happy.  

[Srecko Sostar]

12 hours ago, Dmitar said:

This just means you didn't understand the article. Just because there was a person with a rifle doesn't mean, that rifle was used to deter looters.

I respect your opinion. SM also expressed his opinion on this. I just expressed my opinion. 

A) the witness of the event may have skipped those details while recounting the experience (why would  he have done that?)
or
b) perhaps the editor of the article omitted that part of the testimony (why, if he have done that?)

What man with the rifle think and what he planed or not planed to do with the rifle confronting the mob is in our imagination.

 

[Dmitar]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What man with the rifle think and what he planed or not planed to do with the rifle confronting the mob is in our imagination.

The point of the article was about unity within the brotherhood. The rest is not important from a spiritual perspective. Just like Jesus story on earth. Not everything needed to be chronicled. 

If you want your imagination to run wild, read fiction books.

[Space Merchant]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Comment on part of the video that moderator named as "Example 1". 

In this part of the video, the moderator illustrates a claim he made in a previous part called “3 Layers”. And he managed to show that most JWs do not have access to that part of the library that is outside the online library. I have proved by the example of the JW library (Croatian) that the JW online library does not have an older publication than 1981 and one brochure from 1976. The English-speaking area has access a little further into the past.
Of course, his statement that he "randomly picked up material" from the year 1900 is ridiculous. If he was preparing material for making such a presentation, he had to prepare it all in advance. But I guess that part of his “scenography” is for the purposes of presentation and the tension of anticipation. If someone wants to blame him for that thing, they can, and I won't defend him in that thing.

The JW publication on the subject (racism and segregation) is an illustration in which he tries to prove that today's younger JW generations (including the older ones, of course) are unable to access older editions of WT written material and therefore do not know what happened in the real historical situations that their organization and their fraternity went through.

The video in this part shows;
1) doctrinal interpretation and interpretation of the biblical text
2) the attitudes of the WT administration about the social and educational condition of a (black) part of  the church

3)colored congregations

There are probably as many as a hundred colored brethren on the Watch Tower lists, some of them very clear in the truth, and very earnest in its service, financially and otherwise. We have received letters from several of these, who had intended engaging in the Volunteer work, expressing surprise that in the call for Volunteers in the March 1st issue we restricted the inquiry to white Protestant churches. They rightly realized that we have not the slightest of race prejudice, and that we love the colored brethren with just the same warmth of heart that we love the white, and they queried therefore why such a distinction should be made in the call. The reason is that so far as we are able to judge, colored people have less education than whites— many of them quite insufficient to permit them to profit by such reading as we have to give forth. Our conclusion therefore is based upon the supposition that reading matter distributed to a colored congregation would more than half of it be utterly wasted, and a very small percentage indeed likely to yield good results. We advise, therefore, that where the Watch Tower literature is introduced to colored people it be not by promiscuous circulation, but only to those who give evidence of some ear for the truth.
We avoid, so far as possible, putting the pearls of present truth into the hands of the vicious and depraved, whites as well as blacks. - https://archive.org/details/1900ZionsWatchTower/page/n258/mode/1up?q=april+15

appendix:

4) white skin for all humans (possible solution how Lord will remove race and color distinction)  

DEAR BROTHER RUSSELL:-Possibly you may remember that when I was in Milwaukee some months ago I sent you a newspaper clipping regarding a colored man in Wilmington who had turned from black to white, through the loss of the pigment under his skin. I now enclose a clipping from the New York World of Sept. 9th, regarding a similar case at Parkersburg, W. Va. Do you not think these may possibly be granted as illustrations of how the Lord purposes to remove race and color distinctions during the "age of the ages"? - https://archive.org/details/1900ZionsWatchTower/page/n617/mode/1up?q=colored+brethren

 

There are no controversial issues in this part of the presentation, because the events were part of WT history, which can be concluded from the available WT text.
I guess there are fewer racial prejudices within JW congregations in America today. I guess this can also be attributed to the laws that allow people with different skin color to mix and to social climate in general (on other hand deep problems exists).

Some of you are defending, the historical fact, the segregation of WT congregations as necessity, in that part of American history, because they were conditioned by the state of American society and the laws that existed at the time. Of course, this is important to know. What is also important to know is the aspiration of WT in that time, and today, that one should listen to God more than people, even at the cost of one's own life. If we look from this aspect of the theology and doctrine of the WT organization, then we can comment that the then religious leadership, and thus the believers themselves as personally responsible for their behavior, still failed because they allowed themselves to be governed by circumstances, not by biblical principles. But that is all for human, isn't it?

You may want to read those articles fully because it is already known to have been taken out of context, something of which was mentioned a long time ago on this forum, even that of the Masonic Hall. Moreover, this was attested, already on this thread concerning back in those days.

In regards to Example 1, everything you said does not prove anything to what the video attest to the events of 1900s in which he deem the Bible Student Racist. This treads beyond the Watchtower itself in relation to the History of Racism and Segregation in the United States, more so the very existence of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Nice try, but no cigar.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Perhaps armed neighbor was an atheist? It is ok for me if that make you happy.  

No one knows, that is why it is absurd to take a guess of which you did. In regards to Atheistism, it was somewhat uncanny even in those days since some lean towards Fundamentalism, hence the view of those who adhere strongly to Jim Crow Laws against people of color, Black folks vs Blacks view of Whites; essentially those who are at odds with each other during Racial Tension, compared to those who do not abide by such things outside of Christendom, etc. Remember, The Great Awakening was the reason many Christian faiths waved over the United States, this is where the Restorationist came from, evidently, Pastor Russell himself.

But the irony of it all, the fact you were motioned to cite that article you 100% proved the ExJW from Bethel to be a lair (with Witness agreeing in reaction), reasons why, I thank you, which is rare. That is what happens when your Agenda cannot match up to historical events. Likewise with the EXJW, who knows very little, as you and Witness do.

Hypothetically speaking, as pointed out if Bible Students were indeed racist, they would not be making decisions in that regard to a Black Man to help, and instead, would led everything run red and burn, as did the people in Tulsa when they dealt with Black Families, perhaps give the Black Brother to the Ku Klux Klan (The KKK) who would most likely lynch or burn him on a cross, in addition, as they attempted to do at the Court House, demanding death for a man, Dick Rowland, who was accused of raping a 17 year old white girl named Sarah Page. Likewise, a high possibly that Jehovah's Witnesses would never exist, Rutherford would have never became a Bible Student, and most likely would still be studying/practicing law and or end up as some victimized by the Jim Crow folks or jailed. Going into Example 2, the events of the Holocaust involving them would be non-existent, and the Gobitis Family, who were Jehovah's Witnesses (in this case, not) would not only pledge to Nationalism, but they adhere to the Bellamy salute.

A small change can do a lot, like a butterfly effect. Likewise with Tulsa, those few days, if the situation was different for Dick and Sarah, the events would span even longer throughout the Southern areas of the United States.

Then again this was hypothetical talk - The events of which was mention are merely scenarios, nothing more.

As stated before, either you or Witness can't really do much to refute the facts, even your own assumptions, of which you attested to willfully, also shot down.

[Space Merchant]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

SM also expressed his opinion on this.

Not once on this thread I expressed my opinion regarding Tulsa, the events of 1921 and or the 1964. Do not add to my words with accusations, thank you. Also you defeated the purpose of the verse you support regarding a true witness and a false witness with that remark.

Remember, Facts and Opinions are two different things. They're not the same; it's akin to bias vs unbiased also. This is the reason why the video's bias opinion is challenged, as are those who defend it.

On 2/13/2022 at 2:17 PM, Space Merchant said:

There is a difference between The Facts and An Opinion. Some people may think, you included, they are quite similar, but actually, a fact and an opinion are very different ideas, for facts can be verified whereas opinions cannot.

• Facts  - are a statement(s) that can be proven true or false.

 

• Opinions  - are expressions of a person's feelings that cannot be proven. Opinions can attempt to rely on some information deem factual, with inclusion of emotion, however it can be used in a basis based on this notation, which can sometimes be a means to deliberately mislead others. Therefore, it is important to be aware of the whatever it is someone or something is professing, even when it comes to the choice of language and conveyance of said proclamation.

 

The facts are legitimate evidence, this was already pointed out, regarding the events of the Segregation Era which includes Tulsa to refute the EXJW video is highlighted.

On 2/13/2022 at 10:41 PM, Space Merchant said:

• Fact - Bible Students were never racist folk in the era of those who held a Jim Crow mentality. (This is evident in the source presented which is 100% factual)
• Fact - Publications dating back to the late 1800s/early 1900s are not concealed information granted that Archives of said information exists (example - https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=watchtower), many sources and examples, especially those who studied the history of Bible Students, let alone pastors of old, namely CTR.
• Fact - Anyone can find this information, it is not JW exclusive.
• Fact - Jehovah's Witnesses avoid sources that taint/defile their publications (example - JWFacts, avoidjw.org); put in a negative light (The reason they make that state, mainly when they speak of apostasy), however, they take no issue with Archives, granted, they have the same identical information themselves, hence the remark about the Holocaust one and or Tulsa. Most JWs are aware of this, example, even the ones here, JW Insider, Outta Here, Anna, etc.
• Fact - The mentioned historical accounts did in fact take place, therefore, the YouTuber not mentioning it was a means to obscure when such a history, mainly in February, is known by the majority.
  Fact - The black man and the white man were indeed Bible Students who looked out for each other, thus disqualifies the YouTuber's claim of Racism.

 

There is a reason why I stated facts are everything, likewise with evidence.

[Srecko Sostar]

26 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

The rest is not important from a spiritual perspective.

As I said, I respect your opinion, although I do not agree with your point of view.

28 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

The point of the article was about unity within the brotherhood.

Okay, so you're talking about bones. I'm talking about meat around the bones.

[Dmitar]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The JW publication on the subject (racism and segregation) is an illustration in which he tries to prove that today's younger JW generations (including the older ones, of course) are unable to access older editions of WT written material and therefore do not know what happened in the real historical situations that their organization and their fraternity went through.

What importance does that person put? If former Jehovah's Witnesses misinterpret more recent literature, what makes you think they will have a better understanding when the literature was more difficult to understand? Present members have a hard time connecting the dots. A reason why the Watchtower has simplified many areas for the new generation.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The video in this part shows;
1) doctrinal interpretation and interpretation of the biblical text
2) the attitudes of the WT administration about the social and educational condition of a (black) part of  the church

3)colored congregations

Once again, you are linking the Bible Student Era because of the Watchtower publishing house that printed the Zion Watchtower. Of course, racism was more upfront after the Civil War. Stay within the parameters of modern society if you wish to discuss modern issues.

This arrogance about archives is defining your true inability to understand.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

There are no controversial issues in this part of the presentation, because the events were part of WT history, which can be concluded from the available WT text.
I guess there are fewer racial prejudices within JW congregations in America today. I guess this can also be attributed to the laws that allow people with different skin color to mix and to social climate in general (on other hand deep problems exists).

This is your objective to confuse. There are many reasons why Jehovah Witnesses "separated" from the Bible Student Association. Keeping church and state separate is a fundamental inscribed by scripture. Therefore, your rhetoric is flawed.

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Some of you are defending, the historical fact, the segregation of WT congregations as necessity, in that part of American history, because they were conditioned by the state of American society and the laws that existed at the time. Of course, this is important to know. What is also important to know is the aspiration of WT in that time, and today, that one should listen to God more than people, even at the cost of one's own life. If we look from this aspect of the theology and doctrine of the WT organization, then we can comment that the then religious leadership, and thus the believers themselves as personally responsible for their behavior, still failed because they allowed themselves to be governed by circumstances, not by biblical principles. But that is all for human, isn't it?

From a civil rights standpoint or from a human quality standpoint? The Watchtower looks at the latter by a scriptural standpoint drawn from Galatians 3:28

NIV Gal 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
 

Therefore, your political view for the Watchtower is flawed.

[Dmitar]

9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

As I said, I respect your opinion, although I do not agree with your point of view.

When others are reading comments, it's good to have a none biased discussion. I'm referring about spirituality here, not the commonwealth of men.

9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Okay, so you're talking about bones. I'm talking about meat around the bones.

Once again, spirituality, not the commonwealth of men. 

[Srecko Sostar]

33 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

In regards to Example 1, everything you said does not prove anything to what the video attest to the events of 1900s in which he deem the Bible Student Racist.

As @Witness has already told you, the video does not analyze details on racism issue, but confirms the existence of several levels of access to JW library or inability to access WT organization publications by JW members or other people on the official JW library website. He gave example on his claim. He could also use examples that show what changed attitudes on medical issues WT has offered through publications at various periods of time.

The moderator's indication of racism within WTJWorg is not a lie, as similar warnings about the harmfulness of the phenomenon can be read and heard regularly on WTJWorg's "spiritual food" programs, which also address racism. Not every JW congregation may have that problem, but it is still present. Like any other harmful thing in any society, WTJWorg is not exempt from sin and injustice.
Your persistent denial that such a thing is possible within WTJWorg only confirms your inability to accept the reality of today and the fact that WTJWorg has the same kinds of problems as any other religion.