No Other Gospel - Galatians 1:6-10

[BTK59]

On 5/4/2024 at 10:54 AM, George88 said:

The crucial factor for God is not external intelligence, but rather the inner wisdom to employ reasoning and understanding in accordance with God's knowledge. When individuals exhibit a deficiency in this inner knowledge, they are undermining the purpose of God's guidance for humanity. In essence, they are rejecting everything that God has revealed to mankind, thereby mirroring the rejection of Christ as the Israelites once did, despite witnessing the power of God firsthand.

The absence of intellectual rigor burdens us individually. Therefore, if we exhibit it in public, we have no one to blame but ourselves. Spiritual maturity encompasses that.

Here is where I disagree, George. People who do not have a formal degree and fail to demonstrate internal wisdom have no reason to criticize or belittle someone else's academic or personal education. However, they can still benefit from applying secular and biblical education in its appropriate context and with the right intentions.
If someone cannot demonstrate any kind of intelligence, then their opinions are without value. Moreover, those who criticize spiritual individuals, despite lacking outer or inner wisdom, do so out of mental weakness rather than intellectual rigor, as they demand that people follow and accept their interpretations instead of submitting to God's teachings.

The same scenario is unfolding today as it did in the time of Moses within the Israelite encampment. In Exodus 32:46, Moses wisely counseled the Israelites to make a crucial decision - whom would they choose to follow, as recorded in the sacred words of Scripture.

There is a greater depth of genuine love when a person warns others about those who purposefully display their wrongful deeds in public, which closely aligns with the advice given in Matthew 24:10. Let us heed the words of God and recognize that blood guilt is a serious matter, both here and elsewhere.

[JW Insider]

On 5/4/2024 at 11:45 AM, Arauna said:

"There would be no way to know what the real motives of the son was after such debauchery led him to the depths of despair."

Don't agree -- the repentance was already in his heart if one reads the illustration again. He was eating pig's food.  He told himself that he will go home and be a servant in his own father's house.  He was not expecting to be treated as a privileged son after his debauchery. He said to himself that the servants in his father's house live better than he does. He realized his mistake and longed for the conditions in his fathers house as a servant.  His father was waiting for him to come back in the illustration to show how Jehovah loves us.

I agree that Jesus is giving us an illustration about a son who is evidently truly repentant. As you say, that son didn't expect to be treated as a privileged son again. He realized his mistake. All this is true, of course. And the illustration does show how Jehovah loves us even though the actual illustration is about a father with two sons, one who comes back after losing everything and one who already owns everything his father owns but is still angry and jealous about the way his wayward brother was treated. There is really no indication that the father was waiting for him to come back. Rather, the son was considered "dead" by the father.

I'm only pointing out that Jesus saw fit to add the phrase to the illustration showing that the father had pity on the son "while he was still a long way off." It's a phrase that some would like to take away from the illustration. But I think the illustration is a lot more powerful because of the phrase that Jesus added:

(Luke 15:20) . . .While he was still a long way off, his father caught sight of him and was moved with pity, and he ran and embraced him and tenderly kissed him. 

And I think it fits a similar idea about forgiveness that Jesus gave a few verses later:

(Luke 17:3,4) Pay attention to yourselves. If your brother commits a sin, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. Even if he sins seven times a day against you and he comes back to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
 

Jehovah knows, but as I said before, we don't necessarily KNOW that someone is repentant if they have sinned against us seven times in one day, and each time they came back "SAYING" I repent.

I don't see any reason to disagree with or downplay the words that Jesus saw fit to add to the illustration.

[George88]

The illustration underscores the importance of genuine repentance, as opposed to insincere repentance that is only superficial. Merely saying "I repent" but continuing the same evil patterns is a deceptive form of alignment with love and no amount of subverting love just to accept is not biblical.

[George88]

2 hours ago, BTK59 said:

Here is where I disagree, George. People who do not have a formal degree and fail to demonstrate internal wisdom have no reason to criticize or belittle someone else's academic or personal education. However, they can still benefit from applying secular and biblical education in its appropriate context and with the right intentions.
If someone cannot demonstrate any kind of intelligence, then their opinions are without value. Moreover, those who criticize spiritual individuals, despite lacking outer or inner wisdom, do so out of mental weakness rather than intellectual rigor, as they demand that people follow and accept their interpretations instead of submitting to God's teachings.

I absolutely agree with that logical standpoint. There have been instances in the past where a particular individual has demeaned Bible scholars, and regrettably, we see this recurring at present with the same person. What's truly disheartening is that these individuals lack the essential credentials to substantiate their claims. Consequently, this transforms into a mere matter of subjective viewpoints, void of any substantial basis.

It appears to me that there is an imbalanced blame game going on here. Suddenly, the only source of authority that is deemed important comes from a select group of individuals who are part of a closed community. These individuals use aggressive and sometimes offensive language, by just omitting a letter to that profane intent, yet still claim the right to identify themselves as JWS.

There are dissenters who excessively highlight that one group has been informed about their aggressive nature, while neglecting to acknowledge their own or by defending a disfellowshipped individual that is far worse in the present than has been equal in the past. Once again, superiority is given prominence, even though no one here is superior to anyone else. However, these individuals feel privileged due to their power to ban, and ultimately, it is their game.

This behavior cannot be accepted in the name of God or with a fundamental understanding of scripture.

No one can escape personal responsibility before God by blaming others. It's crucial for everyone to focus on the real issues at hand, such as apostate mentality and the reproach brought upon God by individuals who lack understanding of scripture and selective bible principles.

No one can excuse or justify behavior that is an affront to God, especially when individuals attempt to argue for civility while acting uncivilized and distorting words to manipulate the conversation.

It's not about being intelligent, but rather about how one presents their intelligence. Some individuals may possess immense knowledge, yet if they showcase their ignorance in public, that's what will leave a lasting impression. Hence, those who lack expertise in a particular field of discussion and only offer baseless opinions are bound to face criticism for the misplaced ideologies and the lack of understanding in certain fields of their arguments where expertise is essential, regardless if it's bible or secular based.

This is where the mindset shifts. It's the mental state of refusing to accept anything due to the way the message is delivered. The Pharisees exhibited the same mindset against Jesus. What's the difference here? None.

Apostle Paul had to endure much to convince people of his transformation, yet he remained resolute in delivering God's will with his personal faith in Christ. His transformation enhanced his life without causing anyone to stumble during his ministry.

Some may have considered Paul a hypocrite and even a spy for Rome, but his personal actions spoke louder than his words. There is a clear absence of this authenticity among those who identify as JWs and in those who seek to defend them with misplaced Christian love.

If people here truly seek to demonstrate Christian love and unity as described in scripture, then let it be through God's strength and understanding. Let your loyalty, faith, and obedience to God's words be unwavering and without partiality, so that you may confidently entrust another loyal follower of Christ to continue on the same path with pride. Otherwise, it would be hypocritical.

What was Apostle Paul's main objective in conveying his message through Timothy in 1 Timothy 6? It is crucial to understand the significance of the lures of money and how they can deceive even those with misplaced Christian love. The term "false teachers" carries a profound weight and should not be taken lightly.

First and foremost, it is absolutely crucial to demonstrate unwavering obedience to God. In doing so, we must extend our helping hand and unwavering support to our fellow followers of Christ who remain steadfast in their faith. It is our duty to assist those who have stumbled and lost their way, guiding them towards the path of righteousness. Nevertheless, if despite our sincere efforts, their actions and behavior continue to undermine our Christian values, we must tactfully create a healthy distance from such individuals. By doing this, we are not only safeguarding our own Christian love, but also showing cognizance of the ultimate Judge - God Himself.

Finally, share the good news with others by comprehending Scripture through spiritual growth, so that they too may desire a personal connection with God. Yet, how can we inspire this message within others when our own hearts are filled with deception? How can we, in all honesty, consider such a person a partner in faith? Can someone truly believe that God is pleased with their actions?

This is what some might call "empty" criticism or works. It's easy for individuals to pass judgment on those in positions of power without understanding the immense responsibility they carry and the weight of the decisions they must make. It's important to consider the burdens others bear before we rush to criticize, especially if some of us have failed in that responsibility. This is the only sensible approach.

There is a significant distinction between "misguided love" and "pure love." While adherents of other religions comprehend this, why do some within our community fail to do so when it comes to advocating for a friend and fellow believer who is in need? By prioritizing the love of humanity over the love of God, one ends up serving two masters.

https://outreachmagazine.com/features/discipleship/69053-why-misguided-love-isnt-really-love.html

What was Paul's understanding of "agape love" and how did he caution his fellow believers in Christ about individuals who create discord and division within the Christian community? He emphasized the need for firm discipline, such as issuing rebukes and distancing oneself from negative influences. Something that is tolerated in this environment.

To whom is God most likely to pour out His Holy Spirit - a heart plagued by conflict or a heart steadfastly committed to obedience and grounded in a genuine comprehension of scripture?

Only a genuine heart and follower of Christ can truly impart Timothy's words into the hearts of others through their own personal growth and spiritual maturity. Otherwise, these words will ring hollow, for one cannot effectively teach others if they do not first obey God themselves.

So, who is the critic, and who dares to challenge them with scriptural support and God's endorsement of reproof, while others simply seek to defend their flawed perspectives and uphold individuals who should not be defended because of their unrepentant behavior in public?

2 Timothy 2:23-25 New King James Version
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Only then can we put into practice by means of scripture who in 2 Timothy it truly applies to. Isaiah 48:17-18
 

[Arauna]

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 There is really no indication that the father was waiting for him to come back. Rather, the son was considered "dead" by the father.

Don't agree.  The son was far from the home and the father was the first to notice his return. Maybe he looked out there every day in the hope that his son would come home again.  I see Jehovah's love in this. 

If the son came back after losing everything - it means he has come to a point where he has to acknowledge his sin.  If he still had pride and was doing well he would still have stayed away.  So he had seen the error of his ways and repented. He had to lose his pride to come back as a servant to his fathers home. Many a true word illustrated in an illustration.

His son was "dead" to him while he stayed away and did not come back to his fathers arms. Jehovah's forgiveness is well illustrated here and like in the case of David, who escaped death, it is Jehovah who decides who is righteous.  It is untruthful to say the son was still dead when he returned.  Our faith gives us access to Jehovah's love and kindness - he is the one who decides.

Today a person can come back to the truth.  If Jehovah decides he is not truly repentant, he will fall out again, because one cannot stay in the truth without Jehovah's Spirit. 

 

[Arauna]

18 hours ago, BTK59 said:

People who do not have a formal degree and fail to demonstrate internal wisdom have no reason to criticize or belittle someone else's academic or personal education.

I fail to see what worldly education has to do with understanding the deeper spiritual things of Jehovah. Wisdom comes from applying Jehovah's principles and reading his word regularly.

A mature Christian can see when someone is misapplying, sidestepping or not seeing a point. No degree needed for that.  Just Jehovah's spirit. 

[BTK59]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I fail to see what worldly education has to do with understanding the deeper spiritual things of Jehovah. Wisdom comes from applying Jehovah's principles and reading his word regularly.

A mature Christian can see when someone is misapplying, sidestepping or not seeing a point. No degree needed for that.  Just Jehovah's spirit. 

I fail to understand how someone without a background in biblical education can criticize those who have formal training and effectively apply their knowledge, while those without such education consistently refuse to apply it accurately.

If Bible scholars are able to discern what certain witnesses here refuse to acknowledge, then their education is far more effectively utilized. Will you now defend the indefensible? Is that your rationale for providing a commentary on compassion and misguided Christian love, merely to defend those in the closed club?

I refuse to engage in a quarrel with someone who is selective in their understanding of the Bible. It's evident that the misrepresentation from those who identify as JWs is clear to anyone outside the closed club. However, what is the true purpose behind your confrontational language?

[George88]

1 hour ago, BTK59 said:

I refuse to engage in a quarrel with someone who is selective in their understanding of the Bible. It's evident that the misrepresentation from those who identify as JWs is clear to anyone outside the closed club. However, what is the true purpose behind your confrontational language?

If you believe that someone is challenging you, one simple solution is to choose to ignore them. There's no point in carrying on a discussion that will ultimately lead to nowhere.

[George88]

Let us examine the underlying assumptions inherent in "The Parable of the Lost Son" in Luke 15, as well as the stark contrast presented by Jesus' words in Luke 17, which serve as both admonitions against sin and guiding principles for our Christian responsibilities.

If we simply accept these passages at face value, can we truly comprehend their meaning if the intention is to justify the actions of an unrepentant sinner?

Then we would need to examine the context and purpose of those specific passages. Can we truly compare those passages? If the prodigal son wasted his life and felt regretful enough to say, "I have sinned against heaven and my 'father'" for lacking the wisdom to live a fulfilling life, then who did the lost son truly sin against?

Did the lost son sin against his fellow Christians or the community he was not entrusted to serve or care for? This was the compassion the father felt for a son who had lost his way in life. His sin was what he had done to himself, not others.
What then is the purpose of Jesus in the parable of the prodigal son? It is to communicate the profound message that anyone, without exception, can find a place in the Kingdom of God, as long as they sincerely undergo a genuine metamorphosis and transformation of their life.

Does Luke 17 apply in this case? Absolutely, it does. Only when an individual, despite their imperfections, shows a genuine willingness to repent before God and fellow believers, can they set their lives on the right course and receive forgiveness even if they stumble and sin against others many times. However, is this forgiveness unlimited?

Here is where the confusion stems from: No! While we should forgive our fellow believers for unintentional sins, it does not encompass ongoing intentional sins. Therefore, it does not apply to an unrepentant person who publicly and continuously demonstrates it.

That would be as if secular authority were to give a pedophile a "get out of jail free" card every time that pervert had an urge to act. However, in real life, things don't work that way, and the same goes for bible principles.

In Matthew 11:20-27, Jesus conveyed a powerful message about unrepentant and accountability. However, some individuals choose to disregard Jesus' words in Matthew 18:15-17 because it challenges their interpretation of Christian love and support for an unrepentant soul. They base their argument on defending an incorrigible person.

Luke illuminates the concept of "repentance" as a crucial factor, not the sin itself. This is why Apostle John's words in 1 John 1:9 emphasize the power of confessing our sins. He was not referring to private "repentance." No, a silent approach to repentance only benefits the individual. If someone believes that things should be done in secret to hide them from the public, what is that person actually demonstrating with such behavior? Deception.

While it is commendable to embody Christian love, it is important to avoid displaying misguided emotions, particularly when dealing with individuals who show no remorse.

The Apostle Paul was entrusted with the important task of presenting the distinctions in Christian conduct and ethics to the congregations.

1 Corinthians 5:11 New International Version
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Anyone who disregards scripture by ignoring other passages that reflect negatively on the behavior of a group that people happen to like, and by not applying scripture as it was intended, is failing to fulfill their duty to their fellow believers and is showing disrespect to God if they use His name to undermine the true understanding of scripture.
While it is true that a formal education is not necessary for individuals to gain enlightenment from scripture, it is important to note that the Holy Spirit will not manifest in those who mock God by misinterpreting scripture for the sole purpose of satisfying their own limited understanding of Christian compassion, especially when it is misguided.

Therefore, it is crucial to recognize that Luke 15 and 17 are being misrepresented in this context, and it indeed requires a sound understanding of the Bible to comprehend the distinction in how these verses are meant to be conveyed to the public.

It's not meant to be a "get out of jail free" card.

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is really no indication that the father was waiting for him to come back. Rather, the son was considered "dead" by the father.

Don't agree.  The son was far from the home and the father was the first to notice his return. Maybe he looked out there every day in the hope that his son would come home again.  I see Jehovah's love in this. 

I understand where you are coming from here and it's a wonderful way to look at Jehovah's love and forgiveness. Jehovah can read hearts and therefore, the son was not "dead" to Jehovah. Jehovah could see "from afar off" that the son was truly repentant and ready to humble himself and turn around. 

Naturally when Jesus speaks of a father with sons we think of Jehovah, and in some illustrations the primary son is obviously Jesus himself. 

All, I'm saying is that in this case, what if it's a lesson for you and me to learn something about forgiveness? Or even if it's about Jehovah and his wayward and jealous sons, what if it's also a lesson for how well we can try to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect --and be like that father in the illustration-- even though we can't read hearts as Jehovah can. 

We know that because Jehovah can read hearts, he is never really "afar off" anyway.  ". . .In fact, he is not far off from each one of us. . ." (Acts 17:27)

But what would it mean for you and me to show the kind of love and forgiveness "from afar off"? Wouldn't it mean that we might give the benefit of the doubt, even if a person needs to only SAY "I repent" for the 7th time in a single day? (Per Jesus' words in Luke 17).

Saying you disagree is fine, because I understand that you are taking it, not so much as a lesson for the rest of us, but mostly as an explanation of Jehovah's love and forgiveness. But you probably noticed that in order to do that you had to speculate with "maybe this" and "maybe that." You had to downplay the most obvious meaning of the words "from afar off" while the father could only SEE the son. You had to surmise that the father was looking out there every day for his son even though it didn't say so. You had to surmise that the father understood that the son was about to ask to be a servant even before he could speak with the son. You had to surmise that the father knew his son was truly repentant. 

I was just reading it in a way where we don't have to add anything or take away anything, and we could still find a beautiful lesson in the parable. 

[George88]

Correctly positioned, it can be a remarkable phenomenon. Nevertheless, persisting in denial leads to distortion, despite attempts to modify God's words with our own emotions.

Whom do we truly serve with our misguided love - Man or God? This is something that visiting witnesses should deeply ponder upon.

Did God's genuine love for the Israelites stop him from having to punish the nation of Israel due to their numerous unfulfilled promises to obey? An unrepentant person is essentially breaking God's law. How did God handle those who didn't repent?

Who dares to question the divine message in the name of misguided empathy?

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

It is untruthful to say the son was still dead when he returned.

True. If you thought I was saying that then you misunderstood. The father clearly thought of this son as "dead" UNTIL he returned:

(Luke 15:24) . . .for this son of mine was dead but has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ . . .