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Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?


Jack Ryan

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5 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Also, from the verses you posted, the disciples baptized in the name of Christ (or Father, son, holy spirit), resurrected in the name of Christ, preached and died in the name of Jesus Christ, etc.  We are also doing these things in the name of Christ for we are called Christians.

The WT does not baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, nor do they baptize in the name of Christ. How can you think that is so? 

 

5 hours ago, JaniceM said:

We can simply say we are saved by our faith in Christ.  I see no reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Doesn't the WT believe that they are the way to salvation? And without association with them, there is no salvation? 

 

5 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Whatever wrongs we have done or committed, we have to live with as we are not perfect even though people expect us to be, and pray that God corrects and refines us to continue the work Jesus gave us to do and try to correct those wrongs and repair broken trust.

Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?

In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out. But on who's authority was the wrong proclaimed? was it not God's according to the society? 

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said: "yes, but that is not the question. The question is not about why it is about how. How do you honor one more than the other?" Based on John 5:23: "all may hon

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You have completely ignored my post about John 5:23. I will post it again and look for your response:

 

I think where we are having differences is the application of likeness, or equality.  That is what is being conveyed in the scripture based on the Greek word used. 

 

G2531

καθώς

kathōs

kath-oce'

From G2596 and G5613 ; just (or inasmuch ) {as} that: - according {to} ({according} even) {as} {how} when.

The same, not anything different.  Your relationship with your parents is different,  but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

 

Sorry Shiwii, I had other fish to fry or either I didn't see a need to respond to foolishness when having given a common sense answer, especially if I'm going out of my way to look up the verses which don't seem important enough for you to quote yourself.

 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

 

However, I did answer your question which I will again and which you did not like the answer.  God said honor your father and your mother.  The honor is equal as I would not honor my mother less than my father because he is head.  To be less honorable to my mother would be showing disrespect to my father also.

 

As to what other likeness or equality you want to compare, feel free to elaborate.  However, if your words don't make sense, I might not feel compelled to respond except to say, there are different levels of love and hate, worship, honor, etc.  For example, we are commanded to love our enemies, but we would not love our enemies the same as we love our family because our family comes first.  We are told we must hate our mother and father or our own souls, but that is not an intense hate but not love them more than we love following Christ.  Words can be used in different ways including the word that was used for worship in the original languages.

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The WT does not baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, nor do they baptize in the name of Christ. How can you think that is so? 

 

Doesn't the WT believe that they are the way to salvation? And without association with them, there is no salvation? 

 

Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?

In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out. But on who's authority was the wrong proclaimed? was it not God's according to the society? 

 

I usually watch the baptisms from my seat, but when I was baptized I clearly heard the brother(s)say before I was submerged, in the name of the Father, son, holy spirit.  I never heard anyone say you are baptized in the name of Jehovah's organization.

 

The society does believe they have the truth to show the path to the small cramped road to life to be protected by Jehovah through the time of Armageddon.  Being that all religions pretty much say the same or proudly proclaim they are the right way, I've found the only problem is they abhor when JW's say it, which is very hypocritical.   Actual deliverance or salvation is only by means of Christ. 

 

The society has also admitted to incorrect understandings, which they have never said they were perfect or infallible as other religions have done.  I can respect that even though I may not agree with everything.  I can agree more with their understanding of scriptures than the churches I attended, so it's not a big point of contention for me although I understand it is for others.  The churches I attended taught to defend the country by engaging in war, becoming slaves to pagan traditions and taught me God wanted to burn me forever if I didn't give freely when they passed the collection plate.

 

You also engage in a twisting of words which I find very deceitful.  I believe I mentioned any wrongs we've done (or injustice), may God correct us and refine us to do better in the future to try and make amends and continue to carry out the work Jesus gave us to do.  Please try to engage in an honest discussion.

 

Actual Quote:  " Whatever wrongs we have done or committed, we have to live with as we are not perfect even though people expect us to be, and pray that God corrects and refines us to continue the work Jesus gave us to do and try to correct those wrongs and repair broken trust."

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50 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

Sorry Shiwii, I had other fish to fry or either I didn't see a need to respond to foolishness when having given a common sense answer, especially if I'm going out of my way to look up the verses which don't seem important enough for you to quote yourself.

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

However, I did answer your question which I will again and which you did not like the answer.  God said honor your father and your mother.  The honor is equal as I would not honor my mother less than my father because he is head.  To be less honorable to my mother would be showing disrespect to my father also.

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

However, if your words don't make sense, I might not feel compelled to respond except to say, there are different levels of love and hate, worship, honor, etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

Words can be used in different ways including the word that was used for worship in the original languages.

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

12 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Concerning the word for worship, it was used often in the old language and old KJV Bible.  Worship could be applied to others as well, including prophets or kings in the OT and NT.  So it would depend upon the context and what is meant.  Example:

 

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

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50 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

I usually watch the baptisms from my seat, but when I was baptized I clearly heard the brother(s)say before I was submerged, in the name of the Father, son, holy spirit.  I never heard anyone say you are baptized in the name of Jehovah's organization.

fair enough, but take a look again. I can dig up the information, but it would be better if you did. 

 

52 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

The society does believe they have the truth to show the path to the small cramped road to life to be protected by Jehovah through the time of Armageddon.  Being that all religions pretty much say the same or proudly proclaim they are the right way, I've found the only problem is they abhor when JW's say it, which is very hypocritical.   Actual deliverance or salvation is only by means of Christ. 

Any group or organization who claims to be "the way" is fooling themselves and I would steer clear. Jesus is the "truth, the way and the life" no organization is the truth, no organization is the way and no organization is the life. 

54 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

The society has also admitted to incorrect understandings, which they have never said they were perfect or infallible as other religions have done.  I can respect that even though I may not agree with everything.  I can agree more with their understanding of scriptures than the churches I attended, so it's not a big point of contention for me although I understand it is for others.  The churches I attended taught to defend the country by engaging in war, becoming slaves to pagan traditions and taught me God wanted to burn me forever if I didn't give freely when they passed the collection plate.

See this wasn't the question though.  Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?  I was not quoting you, I was asking you about the wrongs that were taught. Who gave them? The FDS no? Who did they claim this authority from, to speak on Gods behalf? Maybe you should read a little slower and closely before you accuse one of deceit. 

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35 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

 

Whatever relationship I have with my mother and my father, God says to honor them both and it would be equally or the same.  Honor does not mean I worship my mother and my father.  At John 5:23, honor doesn't translate as worship, no matter how many times you imply it does.

 

I gave you one example of the verse in Hebrews as an example of how the word worship can be translated.  The majority may not always reflect truth in translation, and sometimes it's best not to always follow the crowd which can lead to the broad road to destruction.  Also, I didn't want to overload the forum with scriptures, but I will post a few more examples below: 

 

Heb 1:6 Young's Literal Translation - and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'  -http://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-6.htm -

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews

 

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie——indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. KJV

 

Revelation 3:9 New International Version (NIV) 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

fair enough, but take a look again. I can dig up the information, but it would be better if you did. 

 

Any group or organization who claims to be "the way" is fooling themselves and I would steer clear. Jesus is the "truth, the way and the life" no organization is the truth, no organization is the way and no organization is the life. 

See this wasn't the question though.  Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?  I was not quoting you, I was asking you about the wrongs that were taught. Who gave them? The FDS no? Who did they claim this authority from, to speak on Gods behalf? Maybe you should read a little slower and closely before you accuse one of deceit. 

 

Excuse me, your paraphrasing of my words doesn't seem to come off as a question especially if there's no question mark:

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

"In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out."

 

It was Jesus that formed the church or congregations to go preaching the gospel or good news message.  Whether we say church, congregation, Christian society or organization, it means some type of organization was put in place to carry out the work.  It was Jesus that gave the command to go preach to all the nations.  All Christians have been given the authority and responsibility to speak about God and carry out the work of Jesus. 

 

You can read about this commission and authority in the Bible, and about the faithful and discreet slave.

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11 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Jay, again, I appreciate your response.  I did read over your words several times, and found myself disagreeing with quite a few of your assertions.

 

Thank you Janice, I suppose I should let you know I am not Jay Witness who asked the question, but just Witness.  J 

I also appreciate your quotes, especially this one which verifies my own thoughts,

Romans 10:13  Expositor's Greek Testament  - For every one who invokes the name of the Lord shall be saved. The words are from Joel 3:5 (= Joel 2:32 LXX). “The Lord” in the original is Jehovah; here, manifestly, Christ—a proof how completely Christ stands in God’s place in all that concerns salvation.

The examples of numerical times that Jesus was used in the latest Wt is interesting, and I believe not the norm; beyond the numerical, one should also the question how his name is used in context.  Do the examples portray his glory?  This is what I ask myself when reading the information. Acts 13:48; John 17:1-5; 12:28;   As an example, when reading Matt 3:17 in the NWT, its rendering of eudokeō as “approved” is a far cry from any other translation I’ve come across. 

Your words,  “Also, from the verses you posted, the disciples baptized in the name of Christ (or Father, son, holy spirit), resurrected in the name of Christ, preached and died in the name of Jesus Christ, etc.  We are also doing these things in the name of Christ for we are called Christians.”

We could all call ourselves Christians, but behaving as Christ did, following directly in his path and recognizing those who teach truth are sure signs.  Have you considered the baptism questions lately?  Perhaps this has been brought out since there seems to be a lot of activity going on since I signed in.

 On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will? 

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism."  
Wt. ‘85/6/1 p. 30

This was a big change from the previous:

 Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him the Father through his Son Jesus Christ

 On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightenment of the holy spirit?" Watchtower 1956 Jul 1 p.407

It is important to see the transition from….

"We do not dedicate ourselves to a religion, nor to a man, nor to an organization. No, we dedicate ourselves to the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe, our Creator, Jehovah God himself. This makes dedication a very personal relationship between us and Jehovah." Watchtower 1966 Oct 1 pp.603-604

Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities
As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization.
 Wt ‘90/11/1/p.26

To….

Directing Bible Students to Jehovah’s Organization 
Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:91015) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is establish
  KM 11/90 p.1

"The wonders about Jehovah’s organization, or “Zion,” and the truth about the spiritual paradise must be joyfully passed on “to future generations.” WT 7/2015 par 13 

What confusion! Is the organization then, teaching and baptizing in the name of Christ as the early apostles did as you have stated, or are they baptizing in the name of an organization that is now called Zion, which Heb 12:22 verifies it as heavenly? How did it come about that it was considered idolatry to place salvation in an organization to then an organization becoming Zion?  Our dedication cannot be to both an organization and God, but the baptism questions lead one to believe that our identity must be to the organization.  This really is not leading one to Christ, but to a man made entity.  Jesus said we deny ourselves and follow him, not give our identity to anything other than him.  Luke 9:23; Matt 6:24

It is taught that man cannot preach effectively without the organization.  The slide rule is all over the place, as we have seen from various quotes; but the bottom line is Jesus told the woman at the well, as did Stephen prior to his stoning, that there is no physical entity needed to do God’s will and this has been brought out by the WT in the past verified by the above quotes. With Christ, it is a new worship and only in the spirit and the truth.  Our lean should be directly on the Father and Holy Spirit as our power to accomplish true preaching, as well as Jesus Christ who is truth.  John 14:6  Having such faith allows our preaching to be done effectively and pleasing to God.  Matt 17:5

Mistakes made by the organization are not brushed over or excused by making new mistakes. God set in place this provision under the New Covenant – Christ and his Chosen ones.  Instead, man has usurped this provision by insisting it be done their way; but that is not at all unusual, as sadly it is the pattern of God’s people through history. Jer 5:31

“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
 and clever in their own sight.”  Isa 5:20,21

The apostles preached under the direction of Holy Spirit. “Organization” preaches detail of what a person should do or say, which displays a lack of faith in what the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit are able to instill in us to accomplish spreading the words of Christ; especially within each anointed ones who carry the burden of teaching. 1 John 3:19-24 This shows a shift from leaning on God’s direction to a leaning on, and depending on man to guide us, and it is how a centralized hierarchy develops.  We take it at man’s word that a “faithful and discreet slave” are those in high position, when in reality each anointed slave will only be considered such, through Jesus’ words directly to the individual upon Christ’s return. Rom 14:4

We must realize, shouldn’t we, that those faithful ones throughout the centuries were able to preach without an organization but only through the Holy Spirit blessing them.  Acts 1:8 

Can God, who “is spirit,” be represented by a material image? No. Regardless of how imposing an icon may be, it can never match the glory of God. So an image of God could never be a truthful representation of him. (Romans 1:22, 23) Would a person be ‘worshiping in truth’ if he approached God through some man-made icon?  WT 02 7/1

These words are correct.  Yet, the teaching of ‘organization’ as Zion, God's throne, defies them entirely. It is true that you say denominations preach, “get saved in the name of Jesus”.  I believe no man made denomination has God’s blessing, but only individuals; yet we should keep in mind, it was in Acts 8:35 that Philip “preached Jesus”. What a good example for us to follow! 

So how does God feel about the changing teachings by his anointed ones?  As you see, there are two types of doctrinal teachings within the Watchtower. We must question the source as either good fruit or bad fruit since a “tree”, represented by God’s chosen ones, cannot hold both, and yet we read both! Luke 6:43  Many have lost their hope through these changing teachings such as that of “generation” over the years, but by applying pure living waters from Christ we can easily say,  “Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.”  Heb 10:23

“ If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.  But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.  Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.  James 1:5-8

As humans loyal to a cause, an organization, a belief, we can quickly brush our mistakes aside forgetting those who may have grievously been wronged by them.  We are limited in not only our foresight but our hindsight and would rather forget what we’ve done wrong.  God is not limited at all, each person is precious. He does not excuse unrepentant acts of another causing one to stumble.  Jer 18:15; 6:16; Matt 3:3  When Jesus told Simon to feed my sheep and repeated it three times to verify that his love for others was based on his truth, (2 Cor 13:1) it was to be imparted to others also based on that same truth.

Changing doctrine is the same as “meaningless offerings” by God – after all, don’t they lose their meaning even to us when new doctrine is established, new dates are set in place?  Isa 1:13

The words of old that prophets relayed to God’s people are still in effect in every way today.  Satan’s deceptions have adjusted to appear even craftier, but the basis of God’s disapproval never changes. Mal 3:6

“Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?” Isa 2:6-22 (Isa 3:8-11)

It is a confusing mix for the brothers and sisters as to whom they should serve, the organization? God? Both? It is easier to blend them into one which then becomes idolatry, as the above quote from the organization states.  One’s fortress for salvation becomes the work of one’s own hands.  Isa 17:10,11; John 7:18; Jer 51:17

The banner we fly to make God’s name known today is not a blue one that starts with “jw….”, but a symbolic one with the name, “Jesus”.

"In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting-place will be glorious.  In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."  Isa 11:10-12 (Mark 13:27; Rev 9:14); Rev 14:6

Jesus' yoke is light, not one of complicated teachings!  Matt 11:30

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

 

Excuse me, your paraphrasing of my words doesn't seem to come off as a question especially if there's no question mark:

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

"In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out."

 

It was Jesus that formed the church or congregations to go preaching the gospel or good news message.  Whether we say church, congregation, Christian society or organization, it means some type of organization was put in place to carry out the work.  It was Jesus that gave the command to go preach to all the nations.  All Christians have been given the authority and responsibility to speak about God and carry out the work of Jesus. 

 

You can read about this commission and authority in the Bible, and about the faithful and discreet slave.

what does this post of yours have to do with what I wrote? I said it seemed as though your statement was made about imperfect men making assumptions and God straightened them out. 

 

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

Whatever relationship I have with my mother and my father, God says to honor them both and it would be equally or the same.  Honor does not mean I worship my mother and my father.  At John 5:23, honor doesn't translate as worship, no matter how many times you imply it does.

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

I understand if you choose not to reply, in fact I'd rather you not if you are not going to address what I wrote and come up with some other tangent. 

 

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

I gave you one example of the verse in Hebrews as an example of how the word worship can be translated.  The majority may not always reflect truth in translation, and sometimes it's best not to always follow the crowd which can lead to the broad road to destruction.

While I agree with you here to a point, however I cannot throw out the numerous amounts of study involved to even translate properly, let alone the many scholars it takes just for one translation of the Bible. now you want to throw out 52 translations of the Bible and cling to the two who support you? 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

what does this post of yours have to do with what I wrote? I said it seemed as though your statement was made about imperfect men making assumptions and God straightened them out. 

 

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

I understand if you choose not to reply, in fact I'd rather you not if you are not going to address what I wrote and come up with some other tangent. 

 

While I agree with you here to a point, however I cannot throw out the numerous amounts of study involved to even translate properly, let alone the many scholars it takes just for one translation of the Bible. now you want to throw out 52 translations of the Bible and cling to the two who support you? 

 

I will take your statement as confusion on your part and really bad paraphrasing, out of context imperfect "assumptions".

 

And numerous amounts of study is exactly what you should be doing as that might help you more instead of writing smart remarks in the forum.  You are out of your league here .  .  Since you have not studied, whatever 52/101 . . .  translations of the Bible I have compared, they are all different.  For example, just because the majority of Bibles may contain a variant reading or spurious text, does not mean all Bibles follow suit.  Just because the majority of Bible translations are biased in their renditions of certain verses, doesn't mean all Bibles are.

 

I also have no idea why you cannot understand simple things.  Honor can mean deep respect which is the meaning for John 5:23, not worship or equal worship.  Just as I would honor my mother and father the same, I would honor the son the same as the father.  If I dishonor the son, it would also be dishonor to his Father.  It would be the same as with human kings or their sons.

 

HONOR - The principal Hebrew term denoting “honor” is ka·vohdh′, which literally means “heaviness.” (Compare the use of related terms in 1Sa 4:18 and 2Sa 14:26.) So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something. In Greek, the noun ti·me′ conveys the sense of “honor,” “esteem,” “value,” “preciousness.” Thus the verb ti·ma′o can also mean “set a price on” (Mt 27:9); the noun ti·me′ can have the sense of “price,” “value” (Mt 27:6; Ac 4:34); and the adjective ti′mi·os can mean “esteemed,” “dear, or valuable,” and “precious.”—Ac 5:34; 20:24; 1Co 3:12.

 

If you do take the time to study, in the old KJ version of the Bible, you will find many people were actually worshiped because they represented God.

 

I'll be here the rest of the evening, so I don't mind entertaining the ramblings of others for a while longer.

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7 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

 

I will take your statement as confusion on your part and really bad paraphrasing, out of context imperfect "assumptions".

 

And numerous amounts of study is exactly what you should be doing as that might help you more instead of writing smart remarks in the forum.  You are out of your league here .  .  Since you have not studied, whatever 52/101 . . .  translations of the Bible I have compared, they are all different.  For example, just because the majority of Bibles may contain a variant reading or spurious text, does not mean all Bibles follow suit.  Just because the majority of Bible translations are biased in their renditions of certain verses, doesn't mean all Bibles are.

 

I also have no idea why you cannot understand simple things.  Honor can mean deep respect which is the meaning for John 5:23, not worship or equal worship.  Just as I would honor my mother and father the same, I would honor the son the same as the father.  If I dishonor the son, it would also be dishonor to his Father.  It would be the same as with human kings or their sons.

 

HONOR - The principal Hebrew term denoting “honor” is ka·vohdh′, which literally means “heaviness.” (Compare the use of related terms in 1Sa 4:18 and 2Sa 14:26.) So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something. In Greek, the noun ti·me′ conveys the sense of “honor,” “esteem,” “value,” “preciousness.” Thus the verb ti·ma′o can also mean “set a price on” (Mt 27:9); the noun ti·me′ can have the sense of “price,” “value” (Mt 27:6; Ac 4:34); and the adjective ti′mi·os can mean “esteemed,” “dear, or valuable,” and “precious.”—Ac 5:34; 20:24; 1Co 3:12.

 

If you do take the time to study, in the old KJ version of the Bible, you will find many people were actually worshiped because they represented God.

 

I'll be here the rest of the evening, so I don't mind entertaining the ramblings of others for a while longer.

If you have in fact studied all these versions of the Bible, then you would know that the verse we are talking about is neither variant nor spurious. I'm interested in knowing how you know so much about me and my studies? Get off your high horse, you have no idea what league I'm in. It is very telling in your response that instead of addressing the topic, you'd rather try and put me in my place. I've already given you the definition of honor, so repeating it to me only adds fluff to you post with no additional substance.

How can you dismiss the number of scholars it took to translate all of those versions of the Bible and cling to the two that support you?

I'll post this again:

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. Please describe how this is not so. How do you place equal value, but treat them differently?

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