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Jack Ryan

Do people really need to know and use the word "Jehovah" or other language equivalents, to truly know God?

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God elevates Jesus to a superior position so he would deserve whatever glory, power, honor, etc, that his Father bestows upon him.  The Father does not give his glory to anyone, but the glory Jesus receives, he gives to those that would serve with him.

 

(Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

 

The Heavenly Father also receives from the newly installed kings(elders with crowns), glory, honor and praise as he deserves having created all things.

 

Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures offer glory and honor and thanksgiving to the one seated upon the throne, the one that lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: 11 “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”

 

When God's kingdom began ruling in the heavens, he took over power and operation in the heavens and soon the earth by appointing Jesus as representative of his kingdom.  Satan has been given power and authority to rule for a time.  When God's kingdom was established in the heavens, he was hurled down to the earth.

 

(Revelation 11:17) saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.


(Matthew 6:10) Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.


(Revelation 12:10) And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

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Concerning the word for worship, it was used often in the old language and old KJV Bible.  Worship could be applied to others as well, including prophets or kings in the OT and NT.  So it would depend upon the context and what is meant.  Example:

 

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews

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Jay, again, I appreciate your response.  I did read over your words several times, and found myself disagreeing with quite a few of your assertions.


This is totally guesswork on my part as to what your major concern is, but maybe you think that we are not proclaiming Jesus' name as much or as often as we should, but elevating Jehovah's name moreso in the publications.

I reviewed the last public Watchtowers again, and in each issue, Jesus’ name is mentioned and encourages the public to put faith in him.  Jesus' name is mentioned all throughout the articles:    


No. 1/2016    Jehovah - 25; Jesus - 15
No. 2/2016    Jehovah - 19; Jesus - 68


The articles have always stressed the importance of doing the work of Jesus which God gave him to do and have always vindicated Jesus as King of God's kingdom; his death for forgiveness of sins and resurrection.  I found  continuously over and over, scriptures and words of Jesus and his instructions of how we should conduct ourselves as worshipers of the true God and in the ministry.


Also, from the verses you posted, the disciples baptized in the name of Christ (or Father, son, holy spirit), resurrected in the name of Christ, preached and died in the name of Jesus Christ, etc.  We are also doing these things in the name of Christ for we are called Christians.


In Jesus' name can also mean that we as his disciples carry out his work by the authority granted to him from above.  See excerpts below:

http://www.kencollins.com/answers/question-34.htm

"If you do something in Jesus’ name it means that you do it with the authority He gave you and not on your own authority, and that you act within the limits of your authorization, whatever those limits may be. You act as His agent, in His stead, to His credit and for His benefit. You have no benefit from your deeds except His thanks and whatever reward He chooses to give you."

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/name.html

"What does it mean to do a thing in the name of another? It is to come with his power and authority, as his representative and substitute. Using another's name always presupposes a common interest. No one would give another the free use of his name without first being assured his honor and interests were as safe with another as with himself."

"When the Lord Jesus went to heaven, He left His work--the management of His Kingdom on earth--in the hands of His servants. He also gave them His Name to draw all the supplies they needed for the due conduct of His affairs. Christ's servants have the spiritual power to use the Name of Jesus only insofar as they yield themselves to live only for the interests and the work of the Master. The use of the Name always supposes the surrender of our interests to Him Whom we represent."

 

While, some denominations will shout certain phrases over and over, i.e. ‘GET SAVED IN THE NAME OF JESUS!’, there is no reason to beat people over the head continuously.  We can simply say we are saved by our faith in Christ.  I see no reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill.


Eph. 2:8, 9, RS: “By grace [“undeserved kindness,” NW] you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.


I agree that only God as Almighty Savior through Christ’s sacrifice is our means of salvation.  No other person or organization can do this.  I have come to the conclusion that many persons may repent and come to accept the kingdom before the time of the end whether they are baptized JW’s or not; at least this is my hope, they become sheep and not continue as goats.  The wheat and the weeds have grown up together, and at this time of the end being separated.  I know that many persons left Egypt and resided with the nation of Israel receiving the blessings and the curse.  We may not agree with every single understanding of scripture, but let us not look for reasons to be full of discontent.  The world is divided and easily works to tear us apart and I will not echo their thoughts or be influenced anymore by such.


I do however, disagree there is no need for organization.  God organized the Israelites for worship, and Jesus organized his disciples for the preaching work sending them out by two’s and from city to city, village to village.  They continued going house to house after Jesus death and resurrection in this way and eventually to the nations.  There is just no other organization to actively proclaim God’s kingdom.  People have to know they have a choice for a strong leader and not imperfect men in a world destined to be destroyed.  They do not have to believe lies, floating away to heaven or burning forever in fire.  

 

Whatever wrongs we have done or committed, we have to live with as we are not perfect even though people expect us to be, and pray that God corrects and refines us to continue the work Jesus gave us to do and try to correct those wrongs and repair broken trust.


Lastly, I disagree that confessing or declaring Jesus as our Lord and Savior, (Rom 10:9), is the same as everyone who calls upon the name of Jehovah, (Rom 10:13).


Checking other Bible translations and/or commentaries, I didn’t see where the Watchtower is totally without basis in their translation of Romans 10:13:  


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+10%3A13&version=KJ21;NKJV;ASV;OJB

Romans 10:13 Aramaic Bible in Plain English - “For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”


Romans 10:13  New Living Translation - For "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved."


Romans 10:13  DNKJ - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD,( Jehovah Jol 2:31,32 2Ti 2:19 ) shall be saved. - See more at:  http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/NT45ROM10.htm#sthash.MUsq4keY.dpuf


Romans 10:13  New King James Version (NKJV) - For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”[a] Footnotes:  Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32


Romans 10:13  Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) - since everyone who calls on the name of Adonai will be delivered.[a] Footnotes:  Romans 10:13, Joel 3:5(2:32)


Romans 10:13  Kehillah in Rome Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)  - For V’HAYAH KOL ASHER YIKRA B’SHEM ADONOI ("Everyone whoever calls upon the Name of the L-rd" YOEL 3:5 [2:32]) shall be delivered.


Commentaries:  

Romans 10:13  Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers - Upon the name of the Lord.—Originally, as meaning “of Jehovah,” but with especial reference to the Messianic Advent. Here, therefore, it is applied to our Lord.

Romans 10:13  Expositor's Greek Testament  - For every one who invokes the name of the Lord shall be saved. The words are from Joel 3:5 (= Joel 2:32 LXX). “The Lord” in the original is Jehovah; here, manifestly, Christ—a proof how completely Christ stands in God’s place in all that concerns salvation.

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8 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Concerning the word for worship, it was used often in the old language and old KJV Bible.  Worship could be applied to others as well, including prophets or kings in the OT and NT.  So it would depend upon the context and what is meant.  Example:

 

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews

You have completely ignored my post about John 5:23. I will post it again and look for your response:

 

I think where we are having differences is the application of likeness, or equality.  That is what is being conveyed in the scripture based on the Greek word used. 

 

G2531

καθώς

kathōs

kath-oce'

From G2596 and G5613 ; just (or inasmuch ) {as} that: - according {to} ({according} even) {as} {how} when.

The same, not anything different.  Your relationship with your parents is different,  but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

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5 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Also, from the verses you posted, the disciples baptized in the name of Christ (or Father, son, holy spirit), resurrected in the name of Christ, preached and died in the name of Jesus Christ, etc.  We are also doing these things in the name of Christ for we are called Christians.

The WT does not baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, nor do they baptize in the name of Christ. How can you think that is so? 

 

5 hours ago, JaniceM said:

We can simply say we are saved by our faith in Christ.  I see no reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Doesn't the WT believe that they are the way to salvation? And without association with them, there is no salvation? 

 

5 hours ago, JaniceM said:

Whatever wrongs we have done or committed, we have to live with as we are not perfect even though people expect us to be, and pray that God corrects and refines us to continue the work Jesus gave us to do and try to correct those wrongs and repair broken trust.

Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?

In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out. But on who's authority was the wrong proclaimed? was it not God's according to the society? 

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You have completely ignored my post about John 5:23. I will post it again and look for your response:

 

I think where we are having differences is the application of likeness, or equality.  That is what is being conveyed in the scripture based on the Greek word used. 

 

G2531

καθώς

kathōs

kath-oce'

From G2596 and G5613 ; just (or inasmuch ) {as} that: - according {to} ({according} even) {as} {how} when.

The same, not anything different.  Your relationship with your parents is different,  but you respect them the same. This is saying our relationship should be the same, and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

 

Sorry Shiwii, I had other fish to fry or either I didn't see a need to respond to foolishness when having given a common sense answer, especially if I'm going out of my way to look up the verses which don't seem important enough for you to quote yourself.

 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

 

However, I did answer your question which I will again and which you did not like the answer.  God said honor your father and your mother.  The honor is equal as I would not honor my mother less than my father because he is head.  To be less honorable to my mother would be showing disrespect to my father also.

 

As to what other likeness or equality you want to compare, feel free to elaborate.  However, if your words don't make sense, I might not feel compelled to respond except to say, there are different levels of love and hate, worship, honor, etc.  For example, we are commanded to love our enemies, but we would not love our enemies the same as we love our family because our family comes first.  We are told we must hate our mother and father or our own souls, but that is not an intense hate but not love them more than we love following Christ.  Words can be used in different ways including the word that was used for worship in the original languages.

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The WT does not baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, nor do they baptize in the name of Christ. How can you think that is so? 

 

Doesn't the WT believe that they are the way to salvation? And without association with them, there is no salvation? 

 

Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?

In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out. But on who's authority was the wrong proclaimed? was it not God's according to the society? 

 

I usually watch the baptisms from my seat, but when I was baptized I clearly heard the brother(s)say before I was submerged, in the name of the Father, son, holy spirit.  I never heard anyone say you are baptized in the name of Jehovah's organization.

 

The society does believe they have the truth to show the path to the small cramped road to life to be protected by Jehovah through the time of Armageddon.  Being that all religions pretty much say the same or proudly proclaim they are the right way, I've found the only problem is they abhor when JW's say it, which is very hypocritical.   Actual deliverance or salvation is only by means of Christ. 

 

The society has also admitted to incorrect understandings, which they have never said they were perfect or infallible as other religions have done.  I can respect that even though I may not agree with everything.  I can agree more with their understanding of scriptures than the churches I attended, so it's not a big point of contention for me although I understand it is for others.  The churches I attended taught to defend the country by engaging in war, becoming slaves to pagan traditions and taught me God wanted to burn me forever if I didn't give freely when they passed the collection plate.

 

You also engage in a twisting of words which I find very deceitful.  I believe I mentioned any wrongs we've done (or injustice), may God correct us and refine us to do better in the future to try and make amends and continue to carry out the work Jesus gave us to do.  Please try to engage in an honest discussion.

 

Actual Quote:  " Whatever wrongs we have done or committed, we have to live with as we are not perfect even though people expect us to be, and pray that God corrects and refines us to continue the work Jesus gave us to do and try to correct those wrongs and repair broken trust."

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Corrections to Public Watchtower count:

No. 1/2016    Society - 4; Organization - 0

No. 2/2016    Society - 3; Organization - 0

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50 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

Sorry Shiwii, I had other fish to fry or either I didn't see a need to respond to foolishness when having given a common sense answer, especially if I'm going out of my way to look up the verses which don't seem important enough for you to quote yourself.

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

However, I did answer your question which I will again and which you did not like the answer.  God said honor your father and your mother.  The honor is equal as I would not honor my mother less than my father because he is head.  To be less honorable to my mother would be showing disrespect to my father also.

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

However, if your words don't make sense, I might not feel compelled to respond except to say, there are different levels of love and hate, worship, honor, etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

1 hour ago, JaniceM said:

Words can be used in different ways including the word that was used for worship in the original languages.

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

12 hours ago, JaniceM said:

 

Concerning the word for worship, it was used often in the old language and old KJV Bible.  Worship could be applied to others as well, including prophets or kings in the OT and NT.  So it would depend upon the context and what is meant.  Example:

 

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

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50 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

I usually watch the baptisms from my seat, but when I was baptized I clearly heard the brother(s)say before I was submerged, in the name of the Father, son, holy spirit.  I never heard anyone say you are baptized in the name of Jehovah's organization.

fair enough, but take a look again. I can dig up the information, but it would be better if you did. 

 

52 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

The society does believe they have the truth to show the path to the small cramped road to life to be protected by Jehovah through the time of Armageddon.  Being that all religions pretty much say the same or proudly proclaim they are the right way, I've found the only problem is they abhor when JW's say it, which is very hypocritical.   Actual deliverance or salvation is only by means of Christ. 

Any group or organization who claims to be "the way" is fooling themselves and I would steer clear. Jesus is the "truth, the way and the life" no organization is the truth, no organization is the way and no organization is the life. 

54 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

The society has also admitted to incorrect understandings, which they have never said they were perfect or infallible as other religions have done.  I can respect that even though I may not agree with everything.  I can agree more with their understanding of scriptures than the churches I attended, so it's not a big point of contention for me although I understand it is for others.  The churches I attended taught to defend the country by engaging in war, becoming slaves to pagan traditions and taught me God wanted to burn me forever if I didn't give freely when they passed the collection plate.

See this wasn't the question though.  Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?  I was not quoting you, I was asking you about the wrongs that were taught. Who gave them? The FDS no? Who did they claim this authority from, to speak on Gods behalf? Maybe you should read a little slower and closely before you accuse one of deceit. 

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