Equivocation

@Arauna @Space Merchant @Dmitar One thing is certain - Eventually when someone believes a lie long enough, they'll think it to be the Truth, for if someone or a party repeats a lie often enough and it becomes the truth, this is usually the case when it comes to propaganda.

@JW Insider - I couldn't really see what was said due to the warzone of yet another 1975 debate, I think SM said you had experience that day or something to that effect, how was it back then?

@Space Merchant 2 Things, seeing "Truther" being misused several times you mentioned a deranged woman to @Pudgy and you mentioned a name someone called Serena? Although it may not be important, I was kinda curious. Also Pudgy thank you for the comic relief because it was somewhat of a task to read some of the things said. >_<

Oh boy. 1975 Again? 😕

All I would say about this is that there are some who did assume something entirely different about 1975, and the whole world ending thing for 1975 was drummed up through some people hearing differently. This is why even today, people are getting quite annoyed with the 1975 thing spoken by only one side who says they were right, effectively trying to defame JWs at the time. Technically, when it comes to these things some people (as seen here) bring up the topic of 1975 for one sole reason: to brand Jehovah's Witnesses as 'False Prophets' by their own definition, ignoring what is meant by the word 'prophet' and what was intended by WBTS publications, even during those days.

I can also say that the 1975 ordeal did not occur until the book, titled "Life everlasting in the Freedom of The Sons of God" was released; published in 1966.

I realize whenever the discussion of 1975 does come up, many things are taking out of context (even snippets), numerous times to make it seem that Jehovah's Witnesses at the time assume Armageddon would come in the year 1975, which is untrue because like I said, things taken out of context.

For example, often, if not most times, the quotes are never addressed by the one side party.

Quote

 

But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975."—Watchtower 10/15/66 p. 631

This is ascertainable from reliable chronology preserved in the Bible itself. What will that year mean for humankind? Will it be the time when God executes the wicked and starts off the thousand-year reign of his Son Jesus Christ? It very well could, but we will have to wait to see."—Watchtower 5/1/67, p. 262

Does this mean that the year 1975 will bring the battle of Armageddon? No one can say with certainty what any particular year will bring. Jesus said: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows.” (Mark 13:32)'—Watchtower 5/1/68, p. 272-273

“Does this mean that the above evidence positively points to 1975 as the time for the complete end of this system of things? Since the Bible does not specifically state this, no man can say."—Awake! 10/8/68 p. 15
 

"How close we may exactly be to the end of the present divisive system of things cannot be predicted, as Jesus reported that even he did not know the day or the hour at the time of his earthly ministry. (Matt. 24:36)"—Watchtower 5/1/70, p. 273

Jehovah's Witnesses around the world are familiar with these facts, and no one should add any personal claims as to what will happen before or during the year 1975. There are no Scriptural grounds for any claims, and they could have a detrimental effect on the preaching work. Strive, therefore, that you 'all speak in agreement and that there be no divisions among you but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.' (1 Cor. 1:10) For concerning that day and hour nobody knows."—Matt. 24:36.'—Letter to all congregations, 2/22/72

"Another feature of the program emphasized that we should serve Jehovah, not with a certain date in view, but with eternity in view."—Watchtower 10/1/72, p. 602

True, the most accurate Bible chronology available indicates that 6,000 years of human existence will end in the mid-1970’s. So these Christians are intensely interested to see if that will coincide with the outbreak of the “great tribulation” of our day that will eliminate all wicked ones on earth. It could. But they are not even attempting to predict exactly when the destruction of Satan’s wicked system of things will occur. They are content to wait and see, realizing that no human on earth knows the date.—Matt. 24:36.'—Watchtower 6/15/74, pp. 378-379

Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation “Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour’” was very timely.'—Watchtower 10/15/74, p. 635

'But nobody should get the idea that, simply by chronology, he can calculate the time of that “coming” of Christ for executing judgment. Christ himself told his apostles: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.”—Matt. 24:36.

 

What I have listed here are several examples, but there are more, often times ignored, but they all speak in the same effect.

Now there were numerous people around that time, and there were arguments around that time and the people who knew about 1975 often times won out.

Further information I found, thanks to Quora:

Quote

BAR_ANERGES - 

It is an absolute lie to claim that the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975. Here is an article from *1974* that I carry around with me which shows what mature Witnesses knew and were saying:

"The publications of Jehovah's Witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's. But these publications HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE WORLD'S END WOULD COME THEN. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation "Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour'" was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end."--w74 10/15 p. 635

 

You will notice that this appeared in the Watchtower at the end of 1974 and it was referring to what all Witnesses heard at their conventions that summer. So the facts are that anyone who was saying that Armageddon was definitely going to come by 1975 just was not listening carefully. They were doing what critics still do; rip statements out of context and selectively choose only what they want out of the literature.

 

I was baptized in 1966 so I was there in 1975 and it had absolutely no effect on me nor anyone in my very large family. The reason that it had no effect on 99.9% of Witnesses is because most were listening to what was really being said and not speculating. They were NOT saying that the end would come in 1975.

 

The truth is that from the start of discussions on 1975, JWs were told not to speculate on what may or may not happen. For some, it was a real test as to why they were JWs. Was it because of a date to save their necks or were they JWs because they loved and appreciated the Truth and Jehovah?

 

The year 1975 can be calculated from the prophecies in Daniel and confirmed by the events foretold by Christ. This interpretation is in complete agreement with standard rules of exegesis. So the Witnesses’ teaching on 1975 and our being in the “end times” of wicked human society is completely scriptural.

 

What was said by Witnesses in the ‘60's and ‘70's is still true: the end is still near and we should live our lives performing “holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah” (2Pet.3:11,12).

 

From 1914 onward, ALL the facets of the "sign" denoting the “end times” have escalated to an unprecedented degree worldwide (Mt.24:3ff). No other time in history has seen all these things come on one generation in such overwhelming measure. Combining this with the Bible chronology’s pointing to 1975 being about 6,000 years since man’s creation proves beyond any doubt that the world has entered its time of the end!

Also this is a watchtower article from 1968(w68 8/15 ppl 494-501).

 

It clearly shows JW's never said definitely the end was coming in 1975. This is from paragraph 30 of the article:

 

30 Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years

 

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/196860

But real talk though, I don't see why people try to spin it differently to make it seem that the wrong claim for 1975 to be true.

There are many people who are still alive who were around that day, in their experience who never assume what is being suggested here. And because of the wrong information being used to point fingers, it shows not only some here rely on a False Witness, but they are not being truthful in their hearts.

You can't really say you follow the Christ if you're one sided on something, namely shown to be associated with rumors and or speculation. To those people, you kinda know who you are.

Seeing the discussion on where it started, I already know the party who won that debate; and by winning is the fact that the other party cannot really bring up anything claiming Armageddon was said or written to come in 1975...

Jesus wants us to be truthful, one can't be if they're leaning on being misinformed heavily with a heart tainted by hate.

Well I'm sure everyone knows. There is a lot of media talking about it and there are even claims of misleading videos and articles in an attempt to push war.

I know we have a lot of brothers and sisters in Ukraine wondering if anyone here knows someone. There's been a lot of Ukrainians fleeing the country. One of my cousins his girlfriend is Ukrainian and even her father is visibly shocked by all of this, mainly due to the fact he was in his country after the events of Crimea.

Friends of mine are worried about a possibility of a draft, they know Witnesses don't go to war but they're saying, assuming, things might end up like Vietnam whereas a lot of young folks were sent into war. Although I tried to tell them something like that may not be a possibility however I did inform them it may be different with Ukrainians because Russia is next door to them.

Outside of that you have the pro war people and ofc some former members of our faith making theories, mainly those who were in favor of what the Kremlin did to our congregations. There was one who admitted he was sorry tho. But all in all this is a bad situation for everyone. 

I am also wondering what drove Putin to go ballistic at a critical time 🤔

@Space Merchant I'm thinking it may be on a level of group policy. All in all archives are indeed available to people and some still have access to the CDs we still have, if they have a drive for it. But yeah if anyone is really hiding anything that doesn't have archives it'll be the CDC because claims about that is legitmate. 

I heard about the shooting, the situation gets worse because it looks like the parents were invovled. The kid had an extremely dark mind, espically when he pretended to be the police in order to kill more students. I believe there were 3-4 victims.

Also the situation in Kentucky was bad, some of our brothers and sisters, even family members are OK.

On 2/14/2022 at 9:34 AM, Space Merchant said:

Someone linked this video in the comment section of a fellow Truther, I found this to be very interesting, for it correlates with what I said in 2021:

 

I wouldn't celebrate too early. Your friends who favor Agendas are tryin to prevent the majority of schools. I can tell you this, even at a college level, there is a divide between mandates vs no mandates, even harder if you are in a blue state.

The old normal might never come back so we have to adapt in this new setting.

@Space Merchant More rivals? Some Trump followers are also out of tune.

@Dmitar Not only is he pointing out that thread about money, but the other stuff he said is true. A fringe group of former JWs took over some Kingdom Halls in the area, but on Nov. 5, of 2017, they sprang up in the Borough, one of the Halls, which was the one I attended at the time, was targeted by them. The man who led them called himself The Faithful Slave, and he and his group (TVAA) not only walked around the Kingdom Hall where there was a current meeting, but blocked the stage to speak in front of everyone.

That day, a lot of our brothers and sisters were scared, espically during a time where attacks were common in some areas. From there they went to Warwick for some brothers I know who is there messaged me the day after.

They apparently went to a park also demanding to speak to the GB and mock them, but the police prevented them going further into the park; iirc and it was stopped by someone who Faithful Slave claimed in a rant video it was a JW.

Then you have people in the Borough who mentioned these people, some called them Extremist and evil for doing this by onlookers. The ministerial servants who were near the enterance just watch the EXJWs as they left, and random passerbys looked in confusion. They said that the EXJWs could be heard telling the people about CSA, and one onlooker said what the EXJWs did wasn't right.

I found out prior to Nov. 5th, there was a fight between EXJWs to do this, and some guy named Cedars was noted. I knew who Cedars was and that is how I know @Srecko Sostar for at the time, when I was younger, he would make negative remarks to any JW that made comment in other media.

Long story short, the group said that day would be the end of JWs, but after it failed, some of their videos they took off YouTube and instead replaced with out of context narrative of the police. Cedars' friend was revealed to have stopped the park gathering, and once this was found out, he was sent death threats, fat shamed, and some EXJW even made comments that they would come to harm him, or to quote one "You stopped us from going against the Watchtower, you're lucky your fat "A word" wasn't there, I would've beatn the ever living "S word" out of you." It was so bad that Cedars' friend either deleted or turned his videos private despite having a real solution that EXJW could use, but instead, he vanished from YouTube for a bit. Cedars had to come out later and defend his friend.

Then there was the whole situation with the Revenge filled Boyfriend of a Bible Student, of which someone from the EXJWs, named JW Crisis, tried to talk the man down who's girlfriend was in the Hall at the time, attempting to tell the guy that his girlfriend is somehow gone.

The man was threatened by EXJWs afterwards, and this led the girl and her boyfriend to move because they saw EXJWs as a danger, as of today, some people mentioned the girl, she became one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Regarding @Space Merchant, he always calls himself a Truther, and from what I now know about them, they are against certain groups, like ANTIFA, and around that time, ANTIFA was making their rounds, some EXJWs used ANTIFA as a front to fool people that Warwick somehow is connected to them, and Soros, and this trick was in an attempt to get people to side with them, but the people of the Borough didn't buy it.

I know you both have your differences, but the call back from that day is vivid. So it isn't too odd for someone to use the disgruntled remark. I seen in the other thread you want visitors to be aware of what goes on in this forum, which was orignally a debate area before it became a club. Some visitors, talked about it.

Interesting, I seen the name Pearl pop up many times in other disscusions on this forum, but not 100% sure who she is. The only thing I know is that she is a former Jehovah's Witness, but the mentions and history of her, even on this forum, not too sure about.

@Patiently waiting for Truth Nope, not yet, Amigo. We still do phone witnessing/mail letters. But who knows, possibly soon.

I don't think it is normal to make a thread to have someone banned; or demanding someone to be banned. Not sure who @Dmitar is but if he did something that issues this thread to be made, shouldn't the same be done to you? I still remember that John 17:3 reponse you made.

Anyways, all forums have rules, and you should deal with mods/admins about the issue, not everyone else.

5 hours ago, Pudgy said:

….. All of us start out totally ignorant … and it’s often an uphill climb from there …..

Then there are some who choose to remain ignorant, and attempt to bring anyone who has some knowledge down to their level only to fail.

This thread had me rolling when I read through everything lol

So this thread in a Nutshell

After sitting down and reading through everything. 🍿

• @Witness hops in with a video and says something to the effect that this is absolute truth because the person who made the video is an EX-Jehovah's Witness who is also a Bethelite.

• @Space Merchant The guy who does not like falsehood or anything misleading points out the video is misleading, but purposely held back to see what @Witness will say.

• @Witness still holds own to her words and the video.

• @Srecko Sostar chimes in and then @Space Merchant opened the floodgates, refuting nearly every point made in that video which was actucally opinion based vs facts, which wraps around even that of history. Even about the events of the 1900-1930s, mainly about Tulsa. Some of what is said in the video @Witness didn't realize it until later.

• @Witness keeps saying the the opponent is defending the Watchtower or that he isn't a Jehovah's Witness, but due to what @Space Merchant said, the facts, from which I read, is not associated with JWs, but the history of which the JWs were indirectly involved in. @Space Merchant (who is black) checks @Witness and @Srecko Sostarabout Racism and Segregation; the history.

• @JW Insider is for some reason often mentioned by @Dmitar.

• Then @Srecko Sostar somehow points out doctrine, when both @Space Merchant and @Dmitar corrects stating the information follows the history of that specific point in time.

• @Dmitar chimes in to correct and collect and somehow @JW Insider is mentioned by a selected few. 

• @Pudgy For comic relief. 🐕‍🦺👍

• @Patiently waiting for Truth comes in for a hello and good bye.

• @Space Merchant literally gave point for point and now @Witness and @Srecko Sostar is on high defense because now the video went as stale as bread.

• @Space Merchant quotes the Ex-Bethelite "word for word" but @Witness and @Srecko Sostar ignores it while defending the lie.

• @Srecko Sostar defends the stance of the video, but owned himself with a Watchtower Article that refutes the claim of racism in the video.

• @Space Merchant knows that the defeated party lost the debate so he just idles to shoot down claims and insults.

• @Dmitar chimes in when a silly reponse is made.

• @Srecko Sostar punching at air at this point.

Lol reading through the comments, one thing for certain, I reminded of the situation in Germany once again.

ANYWAYS..........

Archives are nothing new, even as one of Jehovah's Witnesses I knew they existed because some Elders mentioned how they were able to get a hold of older publications, so I don't see it as a big secret. Plus we preach using newer publications anyways; archives may be used as call backs or for research, besides that, most of them are on a public domain online around the internet. This is like what some schools and hospitals do, they have records with current information and the rest is archived somewhere, for example a school can have information on a student from the 1980s, which isn't important to a student in the 2000s, or even for medical records, although personal, in some instances they can pull archived data. So I do not see the problem at all, nor do the vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses take issue with this because everyone knows how long the faith was moving, and then some.

Then there is the point in the video where the Ex-Bethelite claims that Bible Students were racist because of Segregation. That is 100% unfounded. Due to customs and the situation back then, things were different so the idea now vs te past can't be coupled together. Even back then, a lot of people were not fans of Racism, in the Bible Student's case, they looked out for their brothers be it black or white in skin tone.

The second example about the Holocaust was kind of an odd one. It is unlikely that the camps were specifically made for Jehovah's Witnesses only, nor were they the first ones on Hitler's chop block. Hitler's anti-Semitism was laser focused on Jews. He, and his party considered the Jews as sub-human and a dangerous cancer that needs to be dealt with. Some believed that Hitler's view of the Jews was a result of his history in Vienna (1908-1913), at some point he came into contact with antisemitic ideas at an early age. The Roma and the Jehovah's Witnesses came later, both @Space Merchant and @Dmitar mentioned this to an effect, @Space Merchant pointed out from the Holocaust source of how they were attacked in those camps, in short, the Nazi's attempted to push the Witnesses to abandon their faith in Jehovah.

The last example regarding 1925 is essentially Rutherford's words being taken out of context, which is another can of worms. I think @JW Insider or someone else gave more insight about this, @Space Merchant even linked that disscussion.

All in all, if the video is indeed false and misleading, I do not see why there is such a strong push to defend it, in addition to that, the Debater purposely entrapped to expose some peeps. One thing for certain, what can be seen here in this thread shows that some EXJWs need a catching up to do with history.

I guess this thread will show the guests of why we take issue with Apostate media.

One thing I wanna point out about Tulsa, both the Latino and Asian communities in the past, were somewhat indirectly effected to, for back in those days, even going to the 1940s+, there was some discrimination against some people, likewise, with others.

I guess many of us young peeps will have an adventure of a life time with this one lol

Although the situation is bad out there regarding all things COVID-19, we still need a bit of humor

On 12/10/2021 at 4:10 PM, kmanning said:

Hi, That's okay. I did noticed that it said "Closed Club" and I wondered if it was still possible to join. Thanks for your help.

Is it working for you now? 😐

Any brothers, sisters or anyone's family members effected by this?

Socialism can be described in a single picture I guess, just to give you an idea:

15 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Can you explain, why worldly matters should be a grave concern to a Christian?

At times indirect events can end up effectings people. For instance, we don't condone brazen conduct by those of the world, but at the same time, we have to be cautious, teach our own to avoid these things, even traps, espically anything that can undermine one's ability to walk in the faith.

Someone gave an example of a lion or a tiger in the fields. Although you have nothing to do with the wild animal, you should still be concern about potential dangers.

@Arauna mentioned the UN for a reason, and some people on here knows, perhaps a bit much, on what is taking place. Remember the Devil seeks to devour people like a Lion, to safeguard oneself, it requires vigilance and awareness.

On 11/16/2021 at 12:27 PM, Isabella said:

@EquivocationI've not asked  about Communism,  not in my first question, not in my second comment

Lo que se dijo está relacionado con el artículo que vinculó /mencionó. La suposición de que los comunistas están entre los testigos de Jehová, como un anciano, etc.

On 11/16/2021 at 12:27 PM, Isabella said:

could also have been

"Podría haber sido", por eso no podemos asumir. A los comunistas no les importa tener autoridad en un grupo que ven como un enemigo, porque ya tenemos ejemplos de eso. Se congregarían o asistirían a reuniones y encuentros, pero no son miembros oficiales. En este caso, la táctica utilizada fue inclinarse hacia la comisión de calumnias y mentiras, incluso hasta el punto de presionar a los rumanos JWs como comunistas mismos para hacer que la gente vaya en su contra, especialmente durante una época en la que la gente ve al gobierno.

Esto también tiene sentido debido a esto: "En sus intentos de debilitar la fe de los siervos de Jehová o de intimidarlos para que se sometieran, los comunistas emplearon espías, traidores, tortura, propaganda mentirosa y la amenaza de muerte. Los espías e informadores incluían vecinos, compañeros de trabajo, apóstatas, familiares y agentes de Securitate ".

En cuanto a ejemplos, Rusia es un buen país donde los funcionarios rusos fingieron ser testigos de Jehová solo para alcanzar un objetivo final. China es otro, pero en su juego final es eliminar a la mayoría de la fe cristiana.

En resumen: los espías e infiltrados legítimos no se quedan mucho y normalmente no se preocupan por las posiciones religiosas. En cierto sentido, son como una versión oscura de un "hombre gris".

In short - The Chinese Government does not mess around or you'll "disappear" for a while. I heard for the new variant of COVID-19 they skipped over Nu and Xi. The the Omicron variant might have been called "Nu" or "Xi", but as you can see, no one want to risk it for the biscuit regarding China.

@xero @Space Merchant Well this whole Kyle Rittenhouse case is spinning heads, and somehow the news made it about race. I saw that Bannon was taken in, so what is the deal with that? Also SM, someone said Silver Haired Truther during the Verdict of Kyle Rittenhouse, any idea who that may be? I found name well title, but not sure 100%

@Matthew9969 Well now they're encouraging booster shots for J&J people. I guess some people saw this coming because of Indonesia and Dominican Republic.

@Pudgy I guess it depends on which state you live in. The severity of how the mandates effect things. Texas and Florida are being criticized for some reason, and some EU country.

@Space Merchant So do you suppose people need to do more in the Awareness Department for Animal Abuse on Social Media? Seems as though everything and everyone is grouped. But we won't have that soon since Facebook is taking a VR route with..... Wait for it....

The Metaverse

On 11/4/2021 at 2:03 PM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

@Space Merchant you seem to have a follower, @Equivocation. 

But both of you deliberately avoid the true issue.  When you both stop your fingers typing rubbish and when you both sit and think, then you might just get a little understanding of the true issue.  But I won't hold my breath as I can see that you both don't want to understand truth, and there is none so blind as those who do not want to see. 

But he is right about what he said. Nobody can have full immunity to child abuse, not even us, not even Facebook. The best one can do is prevention. One can't act like child abuse cannot plague social media, when this was the case for years. Space's claim is going back to some things you said, specifically your discussion with Anna a while back, he cross-examined you saying if you can leave Jehovah's Witnesses from 3 months of research, why not the same for Facebook.

TBH, you kind of walked into that one; a cross examination. Besides, some of us here, know very well how crazy child abuse is on social media. And that is actual truth. Animal abuse too, which is very bad on Facebook, since FB live has many loopholes.

I don't think he said anywhere that Facebook is a Religion so I don't see why you went with that. He just said Facebook is plagued with child abuse too. He was quite logical about it.

On 11/4/2021 at 2:03 PM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

SM, i see you one again misquote me deliberately by splitting up my sentences in to tiny pieces.  This is quite funny because it follows the GB / Watchtower in it's ways of misquoting people. 

He is right and has not misquoted you, just sayin' ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

On 11/7/2021 at 12:57 AM, Pudgy said:

We used to have a green dog, that before we got his tail "fixed", had been an alligator.

LOL, did you name him "Hulk"? FIDO, SMASH! 😁

@Srecko Sostar Wait what? How is that the same if there is taxation, people who pay their taxes? Can you explain? Capitalism is connected to a Hegemonic System, I don't think you can equal that to Marxism, when anyone with an honest mind can see the difference between the two. Unless you are talking about some category or level of Socialism?

@Space Merchant Therefore, learning and having knowledge is a very powerful thing (knowing his half the battle). But thanks for pointing that out. Capitalism and Marxism are technically opposites from each other, and I don’t know why Srecko brought it up, but you know, Srecko. Even here in School, both these things are often talked about, mentioned in some classes, especially with the current state of things in the United States, as well as China and elsewhere.

If I remember correctly, you always mentioned not everyone has good intent, they have other plans and or goals to provoke and to manipulate people, no shred of good intent.

Also, who is Hasan Piker? You compared @Patiently waiting for Truth to this person to, and now you mention him again when you talked about Capitalisms. I do not know Left vs Right groups, so I do not know these leaders or stars some people follow.

@Isabella I speak Spanish myself lol, I often find myself having to constantly translate my browser from Spanish to English to read some of these comments, but will have to proof read because the browsers does not translate all words properly.

Maybe you should be more comfortable...

La respuesta corta es, no, nosotros los testigos de Jehová, incluso los testigos de Jehová en el pasado, no apoyamos nada relacionado con el comunismo.

Como señaló @Space Merchant, los gobiernos superiores, incluidas las personas afiliadas al comunismo, buscan destruir o arruinar a cualquiera o cualquier cosa que se considere una oposición a ellos. Esto nos lleva a los testigos de Jehová, a nosotros, mantenemos la neutralidad, no apoyamos a los gobiernos ni tomamos partido político. Para crédito de @Space Merchant, tampoco somos marxistas ni nada equivalente a eso, y no estoy seguro de por qué @Srecko Sostar mencionó el capitalismo porque la gente está al tanto de la historia con eso frente al marxismo y el comunismo, así que tenga cuidado de no dejarse engañar por eso. El comunismo requiere que un individuo apoye la visión del gobierno del régimen, y solo eso, así puedo ver por qué @Space Merchant mer mencionó a China y por qué @Melinda Millsy @TrueTomHarley dieron ejemplo de personas en la congregación que no tienen buenas intenciones.

Nunca se menciona que alguno de estos espías se convirtiera en testigo de Jehová, quizás exista una posibilidad, pero generalmente los espías, como ya hemos visto en Rusia, simplemente asisten al servicio, hacen preguntas, manipulan, etc. para forzar la sumisión.

Ahora el objetivo del comunista es [era] difundir propaganda, en la que lo hicieron, haciendo que la gente crea que los testigos de Jehová, que son neutrales, de alguna manera apoyan al comunismo.

El artículo que presentó del sitio web de La Atalaya muestra un ejemplo de varias tácticas que los comunistas pueden hacer. Realmente no puedo escribir los nombres de la UE en español, así que simplemente copiaré / pegaré del artículo.

Tactics of the Enemy

The next wave of persecution came from the Communists, who kept up their brutal and systematic campaign for the better part of four decades…. Why was the good news able to make progress under those oppressive conditions? Only because Jesus proved true to his words: “Look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matt. 28:20) Let us now go back about one hundred years to the time when Kingdom seed was first cast on the soil of what is today called Eastern Europe.

The Iron Curtain Comes Down On Romania - In November 1946, the year before Alfred Rütimann’s visit, the Communists came to power in Romania. Over the next few years, their party eliminated any remaining opposition and accelerated the process of Sovietization, whereby Romania’s cultural and political institutions were aligned with Soviet models…. Taking full advantage of the calm before the storm, the brothers printed hundreds of thousands of magazines, booklets, and other publications, distributing them to 20 depots throughout the country. At the same time, many increased their activity, and some started pioneering, including Mihai Nistor and Vasile Sabadâş.

Later, another brother wrote that “the family is not in a position to receive any sweets” and that “many are ill.” He meant that it was not possible to send spiritual food into Romania and that many brothers were in prison.

Following a decision issued by the Justice Ministry on August 8, 1949, the Bucharest office and living quarters were closed, and all the equipment, including personal belongings, was seized. In the ensuing years, hundreds of brothers were arrested and sentenced. Under Fascist rule, Jehovah’s Witnesses had been accused of being Communists; but when the Communists came to power, the brothers were labeled “imperialists” and “American propagandists.” Spies and informers lurked everywhere. The measures taken by the Communists, said the 1953 Yearbook, “have become so severe now that anyone receiving mail in Romania from the West is put on the black list and is watched carefully.” The report continues: “It is almost impossible to imagine the terror that exists there. Even the members of families are unable to put confidence in other members of their own household. Freedom is absolutely gone.”

Brother Magyarosi, then in his late 60’s, was sent to the Gherla prison in Transylvania, where he died at the end of 1951. “Many and great have been his sufferings for the sake of the truth,” said a report, “especially since his arrest in January 1950. Now these sufferings have come to an end.” Yes, for approximately 20 years, Martin endured vicious attacks by the clergy, the Fascists, and the Communists. His example of integrity calls to mind the words of the apostle Paul: “I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith.” (2 Tim. 4:7) Though not imprisoned, his wife, Maria, also set a fine example of endurance under adversity. One brother described her as “an intelligent sister, fully devoted to the Lord’s work.” After Martin’s arrest, Maria was cared for by relatives, including her adopted daughter, Mărioara, who spent time in prison herself and was released in the autumn of 1955.

Zone Overseers Help Promote Unity - For decades the Communists did all in their power to sow seeds of doubt and disunity among God’s people and to stifle communication. As mentioned, they had a measure of success. In fact, some divisions persisted even into the 1980’s. The visits of zone overseers helped to correct this problem, as did a changing political climate.

Por lo que he leído hasta ahora, este artículo menciona a los espías, pero nunca se dijo que estos espías fueran ancianos y siervos ministeriales. A menos que tenga más información al respecto, no dude en publicar.