NOAH! – The END OF THE WORLD – IS NOT COMING! WHAT IS RAIN?

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

I'm not clear on your point here (sorry). In reading Matthew 24

No problem. Perhaps another thread on Matthew 24 would be better than taking this subject up again under this one. In my experience, that topic can produce a lifetime of commentary.

[Evacuated]

11 hours ago, John Houston said:

So then what what is written at Genesis 6:7; would Jehovah God allow the wicked the chance to turn around,repent?

Why not bring the prophet Enoch into this discussion?

[b4ucuhear]

3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Why not bring the prophet Enoch into this discussion?

For what it's worth, this is what the 2001 WT says:

ENOCH SERVES AS GOD’S PROPHET
Faithful Enoch did not remain silent about religious error and ungodly practices. As a man of outstanding faith, he was one of the “so great a cloud of witnesses” of Jehovah. (Heb. 11:5; 12:1) Enoch—a mere imperfect human standing as an isolated witness among wrongdoers—had the courage to speak up.
“Look!” declared Enoch, “Jehovah came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him.” (Jude 14, 15) Yes, Enoch spoke courageously as a faithful human prophet of God. In fact, Enoch’s prophesying likely was made known by preaching, even as Noah later was a “preacher.” (2 Pet. 2:5) However, Enoch was not a campaigner acting on his own initiative. He spoke as he was moved by Jehovah's spirit or active force."  ((vs 14.states that "...Enoch, also prophesied about them when he said: 'Look! Jehovah will come with his holy myriads (15) to execute judgment."))
How the disciple Jude, who recorded Enoch’s words in the first century C.E., knew about that prophecy is not revealed. It is not found in the writings of Moses who compiled the Genesis account. Nevertheless, Jude wrote under divine inspiration, and therefore the inclusion of Enoch’s prophecy in his letter establishes the genuineness of those words.
Jude was discussing certain “ungodly men” who had slipped into the Christian congregation. (Jude 4) With reference to them he cited Enoch’s prophecy about Jehovah’s coming to execute judgment against the ungodly. Surely those words had telling effect in the first century.
But just think about the effect of Enoch’s prophetic words upon the ungodly men living in his own day! Would those wrongdoers enjoy hearing that ‘Jehovah will come with his holy myriads to execute judgment against the ungodly’? Obviously not! It certainly took courage and the backing of Jehovah to speak up in the midst of those unrighteous practicers of false religion. How they must have wanted to still Enoch’s tongue!" - end of citation

I guess one question that could be asked is: To whom did Enoch prophesy? He had no natural ability to predict the future or make a sacred pronouncement of God on his own initiative. So he wasn't prophesying to God of what God already knew. He wasn't prophesying to himself - for what purpose? It would logically appear that he was talking to someone else, and they hated him for it.

I underlined a couple of the points that could be relevant to our discussion either way, but I think I've had enough involvement in this discussion. Most of the main points have been made I think and don't intend to flog every detail (drown in a sea of possibilities). I'm off to the service arrangement now  

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[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Why not bring the prophet Enoch into this discussion?

Enoch was born 1,164 years before the Flood (according to Hebrew Masoretic Text, and the number would be similar from the LXX). So any preaching of a warning during his 365 year life would have been nearly 1,100 to 800 years prior to the Flood. Jehovah's purpose to destroy mankind appears to have been "decided" about 120 years prior to the Flood.

(Genesis 6:2-8) . . .. 3 Then Jehovah said: “My spirit will not tolerate man indefinitely, because he is only flesh. Accordingly, his days will amount to 120 years.” 4 The Nephʹi·lim were on the earth in those days and afterward. During that time the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men, and these bore sons to them. They were the mighty ones of old times, the men of fame. 5 Consequently, Jehovah saw that man’s wickedness was great on the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6 Jehovah regretted that he had made men on the earth, and his heart was saddened. 7 So Jehovah said: “I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, man together with domestic animals, creeping animals, and flying creatures of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.

 

[b4ucuhear]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

any preaching of a warning during his 365 year life would have been nearly 1,100 to 800 years prior to the Flood. Jehovah's purpose to destroy mankind appears to have been "decided" about 120 years prior to the Flood.

Since Enoch's words were prophetic, I'm not sure the relevance of his preaching of a warning 1,100 to 800 years prior to the flood would have even if it "appeared" that Jehovah had purposed to destroy the earth 120 years prior to the flood. Since his words were prophetic without specifying a time frame, it could have had it's fulfillment much later (even though it was so sure to happen it was described in the past tense). So again, I'm not clear on whether I'm following your point correctly or off on something else entirely. Are you suggesting that Enoch's prophesying found it's fulfillment at the flood...much later at Armageddon...or some other time? 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

So again, I'm not clear on whether I'm following your point correctly or off on something else entirely. Are you suggesting that Enoch's prophesying found it's fulfillment at the flood...much later at Armageddon...or some other time? 

Enoch had already been brought up into this context before Eoin mentioned him, and the prior implication had been that Enoch had provided a warning about a pending judgment due to unrighteousness. No one had specifically tied this warning to the Flood, however. I thought that these facts from the Bible might have a bearing on whether this could qualify as a "flood warning."

It was just an opening to the discussion if someone wanted to follow up. I don't personally see it as a flood warning, but this was just some info to see if others might have already considered it in their own conclusions.

4 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Since his words were prophetic without specifying a time frame, it could have had it's fulfillment much later (even though it was so sure to happen it was described in the past tense).

I agree that Jude uses the quotation from the Book of Enoch (or at least the equivalent quotation from another source) without specifying the time frame. What you call the "past tense" here is just the common way of translating the Greek aorist and second aorist tenses. In fact, note the following about the Aorist tense from http://www.franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=183

AORIST TENSE: This tense is characterized by its emphasis on precise accordance with details, WITHOUT consideration for past, present or future time. THERE IS NO CLEAR EQUIVALENT FOR THIS TENSE IN ENGLISH!

The Ethiopic version of Enoch says:

Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.

If Jude could be shown to have purposefully moved the tense from present to past, then this could have become evidence that Jude recognized a previous fulfillment of the judgment event. But we don't have enough information, and the context of Jude appears to move the meaning to a still near-future judgement day, especially since he added nothing to the context to force the aorist tense into a past tense equivalent. (Therefore, it need not have been translated as past tense in any modern language, anyway.) It's just as accurate to translate Jude 14,15 the way the NKJV translates:

“. . . Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

On the side of tying Enoch's prophesies to Noah, David Guzik's Bible commentary quotes Trapp as saying:

“Tertullian tells us that the book of Enoch’s prophecies were preserved by Noah in the ark, and that they continued and were read until the times of the apostles. But because they contained many famous testimonies concerning Jesus Christ, the Jews out of malice suppressed and abolished the whole book.” (Trapp)

Also, even if possibly anachronistic, the book of Enoch also discusses the Nephilim and pre-flood conditions with the idea of prophetic warning in some of the contexts. I don't treat the Book of Enoch as inspired, but here is an example from Chapter 10:  ( http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe013.htm )  The language of Genesis 6-8 is alluded to several times, and also the abyss of Tartarus for the angels who sinned (2 Peter), and some ideas also found in Isaiah and Revelation and elsewhere.

1. Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: 2. '〈Go to Noah〉 and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. 3. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.' . . . And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. 8. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azâzêl: to him ascribe all sin.' . . . 11. And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjâzâ and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. 12. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. 13. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: 〈and〉 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations. 15. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear:  . . .

18 And then shall the whole earth be tilled in righteousness, and shall all be planted with trees and be full of blessing. 19. And all desirable trees shall be planted on it, and they shall plant vines on it: and the vine which they plant thereon shall yield wine in abundance, and as for all the seed which is sown thereon each measure (of it) shall bear a thousand, and each measure of olives shall yield ten presses of oil. 20. And cleanse thou the earth from all oppression, and from all unrighteousness, and from all sin, and from all godlessness: and all the uncleanness that is wrought upon the earth destroy from off the earth. 21. ⌈And all the children of men shall become righteous⌉, and all nations shall offer adoration and shall praise Me, and all shall worship Me. And the earth shall be cleansed from all defilement, and from all sin, and from all punishment, and from all torment, and I will never again send (them) upon it from generation to generation and for ever.

[JW Insider]

32 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

bind them fast for seventy generations

Just noticed that if the angels who sinned were to be bound for 70 generations in Tartarus until their judgment, then this could have triggered a lot of discussion about genealogies (chronology) in the first century congregations and evidently even into Tertullian's generation, when many Christians still treated Enoch as inspired. If the check of the Bible genealogies let them see that Noah's flood had been about 2,400 years before Christ, then imagine the discussions about how long a generation would have been.

We currently date the Flood to about 2,370 years before Jesus was born, which is 2,440 years before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70. (But it was possible to get dates anywhere from 2000 to 3000 BCE for the Flood.) So imagine the possible speculation if each generation was considered to be 40 years long, then 70 generations could be 2,800 years. (40x70=2,800).  If they used 37 years as the length of a generation (from the time of Jesus prophecy until Jerusalem was destroyed) then the angels were to be imprisoned for 2,590 years, possibly fueling speculation of an imminent Armageddon. Even if they thought there should be an entire 1000-year millennium before the judgment of the angels then a generation of 49 to 50 years (Jubilee) would also mean that Armageddon was possibly just a few short years away.

This could have been part of the reason that the Bible includes the following admonition:

(Titus 3:9) But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile. . .

(1 Timothy 1:4) 4 nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith.

(2 Peter 3:8) However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

 

 

 

 

[b4ucuhear]

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

What you call the "past tense" here is just the common way of translating the Greek aorist and second aorist tenses.

I wasn't tying the idea of Enoch's prophecy being something yet future as being based on Greek grammar (in case you thought that). There is no scriptural basis to indicate to me that Enoch's prophetic words had a fulfillment either before or during Enoch's lifetime (whether one views his "prophecy' in this case as predictive or as a sacred pronouncement). That leaves after - which is in harmony with the predictive nature of the word prophecy as you know. Why I had raised the question is that in our literature, there are references that appear to make the application to the flood of Noah's day and also to the execution of judgment at Armageddon. (or both?) 

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It was just an opening to the discussion if someone wanted to follow up. I don't personally see it as a flood warning, but this was just some info to see if others might have already considered it in their own conclusions.

In response to that, I think I agree with you here. While I don't reject out of hand/can accept an application to Noah's day in principle, some of the specifics lead me to the conclusion that it would likely have it's main fulfillment later on. Why? 

The destructive work is described as being accomplished by "holy myriads..." indicating of course, spirit/angelic involvement in the destruction. Whereas in Noah's day, destruction was described as being accomplished by means of the flood flood waters without any reference to myriads of destructive angelic forces..

"And another thing"...some/many translations refer to this destructive force as being accomplished by "saints." If that is the correct interpretation and if "saints" refers to redeemed/resurrected holy ones, that would also indicate a period of time after which (according to our doctrine) anointed Christians (our version of saints) have been resurrected to heavenly life, and are part of the executional force against Satan's system at Armageddon. (Which is also in line with our understanding). Again, not being dogmatic and I don't really want to pursue this in too much detail as a "springboard for speculation" - which I really don't have the time/inclination for anyway. 

[Evacuated]

6 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

the FACT that people got caught off guard by the FLOOD doesn’t PROVE that Noah never “PREACHED”

Quite correct.

I would compare the attitude described by John in the Revelation here. Of Babylon the Great, it is said that one of the reasons for her sudden destruction is that at the time of this event  "she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.'' " Rev.18:7. Being also at this time  "drunk....with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus" shows that she has had contact with these ones in order to persecute them.

We know that false religion has been served with a comprehensive exposure, and notification of God's judgement, even at this stage of the "last days". On the whole, this message has been ignored and suppressed and it 's bearers hounded. And yet, you will find even in the pages of religious publications, quite accurate descriptions of who Jehovah's Witnesses are and what they believe. Copies of their publications on this subject are even distributed by their opposers and are also available on ebay!

So Babylon the Great takes no note of the substance of the judgement message it has received. Hearing the message is one thing which cannot be denied as the vehement reaction to it's bearers (the witnesses of Jesus) bears out. But believing it, taking it to heart, and acting appropriately on it is something else. Failure to do so pecipitates the "swift pitch" of Babylon's destruction (Rev 18:21). The reaction of all her consorts and exploiters from the sidelines as described in Rev 18:9-19 bear out the surprise and unexpected nature of this destruction when it occurs, despite the publicity campaign preceding it.

So, as a major component of the events of the last days, the eviction notice served to Babylon the Great, the vicious reaction to it's bearers, along with the "I will never see mourning" attitude are significant. It seems highly unlikely that the "took no note" attitude of the people described by Jesus at the the time of Noah as having a  similarity to those held in the "last days" (Jewish system or current global), would be due to a lack of notification on the part of Noah, who was indeed described as a "preacher of righteousness". Luke's description of  heart attitudes as a component of this taking no note has a similarity to the description of Babylon the Great's heart attitude as a component of her adverse judgement. Paul speaks of "the eyes of your heart" when discussing with the Ephesians (Eph. 1:18) understanding God's purposes.

I submit that it is the heart reaction of the hearer that determines whether one "takes note" or not. The suddeness and unexpected nature of destruction at the flood of Noah's day, at the end of the Jewish system, when Babylon the Great is destroyed, and when Armageddon strikes, for those who are adversely effected will not be due to any lack of notification and warning on the part of Jehovah or His witnesses, both heavenly and on earth. They (unbelievers) heard the warning but "took no note", in their hearts.

[JW Insider]

10 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

Since Noah was a preacher of righteousness and in good standing with God? It would be conceivable he spoke about the dynamics of the purpose for building the Ark.

[I'll be adding some emphasis to points in your original post in these requotes.]

Through an abundance of words, I might have given the impression that I had disagreed with the points that you are making here. 

(Proverbs 10:19) When words are many, transgression cannot be avoided,. . .

So I wanted to reiterate that I agree 100% with everything you said in your post. As I indicated in previous posts, I agree that it is not only "conceivable" that Noah spoke about the Ark, but seems so likely that it is nearly impossible to conceive that he did not speak to others about it.

11 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

Whether it was 120 years it took for the completion of this Judgement, or 20, 40, or 100, in-between, it SHOULDN’T be dismissed as pretending to assume there was NO discussion about God’s word to repent, or people would not have known about the purpose of the Ark.

Again, I agree that we should not assume that he did not discuss God's word to repent. We do not know what Noah's specific message was, nor when he preached it, therefore we cannot assume that this message was not about repentance. It appears very likely that the preaching was related to the Flood and, of course, the purpose of the Ark.

11 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

NO different than the message given by Jesus that has continued to be ignored by those who chose NOT to believe, as in Noah’s time, but is well known for us today.

(NIV) 2 Peter 2:5

5if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight

Yes. This seems to be exactly the reason that 2 Peter uses the reference to Noah, and may have even been why he pointed out that Noah was a preacher of righteousness. (I don't discount the other possible meanings, too.)

11 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

And as in Noah’s time, Jesus judgment will appear as a sudden event in Judgement.

(KJV) Matthew 24:37-39

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so, shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I couldn't agree more. This must be exactly why Jesus used the reference to Noah. I emphasized your words in red here because I think you encapsulated the meaning perfectly in a way that fits both 2 Peter and Matthew 24. Of course, I also think it's important to point out again that a natural understanding of the verse recognizes that Jesus is focusing on the suddenness and unexpectedness of the judgment event itself. Jesus disciples had just asked Jesus what they might watch out for in the days before the Judgment event that would topple Jerusalem's buildings. They wanted a warning sign in advance of this event, so they asked for a sign of the parousia. 

11 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

. . . .The ONLY similarities between these two events are in “judgment”, it came and will come as a surprise.

Excellent point.

11 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

So, the FACT that people got caught off guard by the FLOOD doesn’t PROVE that Noah never “PREACHED” concerning of that coming judgment, it just tells us that the world paid no attention to the warnings, as they have failed to pay attention to Jesus warning in today’s world.

Absolutely true. Being surprised by something doesn't prove people were not warned, it would just tell you that they hadn't paid attention. The Ark project would have been no small matter and it's hard to see how it could have been hidden from public view. And the Bible never implies that it was hidden or secret.  Any righteous person should have responded to any preaching, and even responded to the possibility that this might be a "way out" from the conditions of the day. That would make it the same way that honest-hearted persons looking for a way out of today's conditions should be searching and seeking. There is not excuse for unrightousness, today or Noah's day:

(Acts 17:26-28) 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’

(Romans 1:18-20) 18 For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19 because what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. 20 For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.

 

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

We know that false religion has been served with a comprehensive exposure, and notification of God's judgement, even at this stage of the "last days". On the whole, this message has been ignored and suppressed and it 's bearers hounded. And yet, you will find even in the pages of religious publications, quite accurate descriptions of who Jehovah's Witnesses are and what they believe. Copies of their publications on this subject are even distributed by their opposers and are also available on ebay!

The analogy to the attitude of Babylon the Great is good. It brings up the often-discussed subject of "How much preaching is enough preaching?" Naturally, that's not up to us to speculate about. We are saddened at misinformation, which seems worse, in some ways, than NO information. It seems likely that the majority of the world's population since, oh . . . let's say 1914, has either had no information or misinformation about true Christianity. Does this mean that the final Judgement Event on this system needed to wait until a certain threshold was reached? We can't say, because if we could, we would be speculating about reasons that it might still have to wait for a certain threshold of "comprehensive exposure, and notification." After all, at least half the world has evidently never been contacted by Jehovah's Witnesses, and most of what people do "know" even if they have been contacted, is wrong.  So if this were the criteria, we could claim that the "end" cannot come yet, but we know that the end can come at any time, and it will come as a surprise and sudden event.

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

 It seems highly unlikely that the "took no note" attitude of the people described by Jesus at the the time of Noah as having a  similarity to those held in the "last days" (Jewish system or current global), would be due to a lack of notification on the part of Noah, who was indeed described as a "preacher of righteousness".

While I agree with this statement and most of the statements surrounding it, we should still keep in mind that Jesus never said that the people in Noah's day "took no note." For some reason, Jesus didn't even imply it in the context of this particular reference to Noah. So this is still just an interpolation. It seems very likely as you say, but it's still possible to miss the point Jesus was making if we think it's necessary to put this extra idea into Jesus' mouth in this context. That's why I think Gnosis Pithos was so 'spot on' when he twice summarized it with the idea:

12 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

And as in Noah’s time, Jesus judgment will appear as a sudden event in Judgement.

(KJV) Matthew 24:37-39

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so, shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

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Based on the comments above about the percentage of the world that has heard the specific types of warnings from Jehovah's Witnesses, I think the idea conveyed in the next quote might be problematic.

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

The suddeness and unexpected nature of destruction at the flood of Noah's day, at the end of the Jewish system, when Babylon the Great is destroyed, and when Armageddon strikes, for those who are adversely effected will not be due to any lack of notification and warning on the part of Jehovah or His witnesses, both heavenly and on earth.

I find it worded carefully enough to take it as a true statement, of course, but it implies that everyone who might be adversely affected by future judgement events will have to have a full notification by either heavenly beings or Jehovah's Witnesses themselves. I don't think there is any Biblical support of that idea, specifically, even if it might be true. I say that because it gets back to the point that if someone recognizes the fact that Witnesses have not yet exposed to their message to BILLIONS of the world's population, they might think of this as a reason to believe the end must be delayed. If we consider that BILLIONS more have a false or misinformed view of that message, this just takes away further from the point you made about "not due to any lack of notification."