The book "Seola" aka "Angels and Women", mummies, and a plethora of other curiosities from the 1800's onward

[Anna]

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Brother Smurf is giving the public talk tomorrow. I'm going to run these points by him and see what he thinks.

Let us know! Oh, are you being funny about the Smurfs? Did they have something to do with demonism?

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

the demon’s seeking out individuals to haunt. Why would they do that with regard to the real objective they have.

I would say............why not?

The Devil and his demons failed to establish their claims that Jehovah does not deserve to rule and that intelligent creatures will not serve him out of love. They lost the war, way back, in 1914 (Rev:12:9).

Rememember when Jesus gave his parable of the wheat and the weeds? He said that "the field is the world" Matt 13:38. This world has been explained as the world of mankind. Satan has always been out to capture the hearts of men, to divert the worship to himself. He had a great time as the "ruler of the world", but for the most part, this is only by deception. The majority have not served him out of love.

But part of the good news is....well, basically,  he, er, lost the war. In doing so, he lost his position as ruler of the world! He and his demons actually failed to acheive their real objective back then. But did he roll over like a beaten dog? Not likely. He has gone off to "wage war with the remaining ones" of those "who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus." Rev.12:17.

So I see all these manifestations of Satan's power whether real, imagined, or fabricated, regardless of how puny and pathetic they appear to be, as Satan conducting an attempt at a "scorched earth policy" on  "the field". This "illegal" practice is well described in the Wikepedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth.

Satan is looking by "fair means or foul" to divert or turn mens hearts away from the truth as he seeks to blind "the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through"(2Cor.4:4)

As you rightly say, he creates situations to cause men's hearts to "become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life" (Luke 21:24). Worse still, he seeks to "cauterize" (check the Greek) the conscience of men in this endeavour (1Tim. 4:2). It's not just about attacking God's people who might be (or feel they are) too clever to fall for "a circus show". It's about maintaining control over those who are not God's people by any means possible, including "circus shows", real or imagined.

Satan, having lost everything, has nothing to lose, and importantly, nothing to gain, except some sort of temporary "fix" when he observes or causes anything that insults or ridicules or hurts Jehovah. His very existence accomplishes all of those. The maintenance of "ignorance" in the hearts of men accomplishes all of those. What happened to that Sikh family? I do not know. Satan won that battle at the time, regardless, or maybe because of, the theatre, but did he win the war? 

Like all other tactics employed by this "fallen star", Satan, it is uncomfortable for those enduring, fatal for those succumbing, but, basically, futile to the one employing it. Remember, "we are not ignorant of his designs" 2Cor.2:11. But those we preach to are.

[Evacuated]

@Anna

There is always the danger in going off-topic in these fascinating discussions. As this one has resulted from just that problem,  I will include a view that connects a discussion of Satan's tactics with the actual topic element "a plethora of other curiosities from the 1800's onward"

I do not see it as a coincidence that the peculiar conditions prevalent in New York State (Burned-over district) that provided a backdrop to the emergence of Charles Russell and his early Bible Students should be accompanied by the "plethora of curiosities" you refer to. The awakening of interest in end time prophecy and the return of Christ would be sure to attract the interest of spirit entities set on preventing the light of truth emerging from God's Word.

There! A connection to hopefully keep this intriguing thread on track! 

[JW Insider]

30 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

I do not see it as a coincidence that the peculiar conditions prevalent in New York State (Burned-over district) that provided a backdrop to the emergence of Charles Russell and his early Bible Students should be accompanied by the "plethora of curiosities" you refer to.

And just to help you keep @Anna's interest, she should know that Joseph Smith of Mormon fame also had his start in the Burned-over district. (In the same time period when Second Adventists began rescorching the region.)

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Interesting questions as we attempt to rationalise the "machinations of the devil" and his demons! Are we saying that we are too intelligent to fall for their childish tricks?

I think the answer to that question is mostly YES! We are intelligent enough not to fall for his tricks. But that doesn't mean we won't fall for them, because Satan's biggest trick doesn't appeal to our intelligence but to our desires.

• (2 Corinthians 2:11) 11 so that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.

By the way, the Bible never, ever, says that demons can possess things that might therefore become dangerous to us. There is never a warning against owning things that might have been previously owned or influenced by demons or spirit mediums. Yet, on such matters, the Bible is all we need to be fully equipped, which also means that the Bible has told us all we need to know about being fully equipped, putting on the complete suit of armor, to fight the Devil. Instead of ever mentioning objects like Ouija boards, or amulets, or even false idols, we are told that these things (idols) are nothing. Instead the counsel we get is all about watching our desires:

• (James 1:14, 15) 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.

• (James 1:27) 27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

  (James 4:1-8) 4 What is the source of the wars and fights among you? Do they not originate from your fleshly desires that carry on a conflict within you? 2 You desire, and yet you do not have. You go on murdering and coveting, and yet you are not able to obtain. You go on fighting and waging war. You do not have because of your not asking. 3 When you do ask, you do not receive because you are asking for a wrong purpose, so that you may spend it on your fleshly desires. 4 Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that for no reason the scripture says: “The spirit that has taken up residence within us keeps enviously longing”? 6 However, the undeserved kindness that He gives is greater. So it says: “God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones.” 7 Therefore, subject yourselves to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you.. . .

   

 

 

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

mostly YES!

You might misunderstand that my suggestion encompassed all who were referred to by Anna and TTH. Their comments encompassed humans in general as did mine. Of course Christians, particularly the kind referred to in 2Cor.2:11, are not ignorant of Satan's designs. But, sadly, many other humans are. Further, human intelligence is no protection against Satanic machinations.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is never a warning against owning things that might have been previously owned or influenced by demons or spirit mediums.

Nothing explicit I would agree, but I think there are sufficient examples to sensitize a Christian conscience of the need to keep clear of certain items. And even the most liberal stretch could not deny that the Devil is able to deceive humans into believing that objects might have supernatural efficacy, even if those actual items did not. However, that is not to say that Satan or demons cannot utilise material objects, as opposed to possessing them.

Have you ever experienced demon activity yourself first hand,  other than through the obvious workings of this system of things? I think as you were raised in a theocratic environment, probably not. Those who have would most likely share a view different from the rationalisations expressed in some of these postings on the subject.

[Evacuated]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And just to help you keep @Anna's interest, she should know that Joseph Smith of Mormon fame also had his start in the Burned-over district.

I thought that including the Wikepedia link, (Burned-over district) might accomplish this?

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

On 9/22/2017 at 9:00 PM, Anna said:

I thought I’d also mention that funnily enough this kind of “mass hysteria” regarding spiritism prevailed into the 1990’s among the Witnesses, and was marked by supposed demon possession of items brought in bazaars, including mattresses which would throw the person on to the floor.

I remember that went on for YEARS ... from about 1960 through the late 1970's, , both in Virginia, where I grew up, and in California where I moved to circa 1969... and then it seemed to die out.

Strange how it never applied to buying a used car ..... I did run off the road backwards during a snowstorm, but that was due to my not having a better understanding of friction physics, and momentum ... not demons.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

If I go to a yard sale, and see a blood stained rug with blobs of candle wax, and a pentagon inscribed on it ... I might suspect.

The "Smurfs" have a history of demon attribution that has to be researched, to be believed.

EVERYBODY is completely insane ... I mean... except YOU and ME ... and I have my doubts about you.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

18 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Comment Deleted!!!!!!!!

Self-Deletion in fear of having an “OUTRAGES” response from JTR as he has done in the past with my dyslexia without consequences from Queen Ester or the Librarian. It was seen as humorous, by many here. I just remembered!!!

If you have dyslexia, how is it that you do not type in reverse?

Seriously ... I never EVER made fun of your dyslexia ... I never knew you had it until you whined and undressed yourself in public ..

I was only making fun of your convoluted logic. That is an IDEA.

IDEAS are fair game for ridicule.

I only ridicule people when they attack me first ... because they "gave me permission".

If it wasn't for the Parrot on my shoulder, you might never guess I have a wooden leg.

 

[Anna]

13 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

16 hours ago, Anna said:

the demon’s seeking out individuals to haunt. Why would they do that with regard to the real objective they have.

I would say............why not?

Of course. Anything is possible. But my point was is it likely with regard to the Witnesses, since their objective is to do us lasting harm, not even to kill us physically, but to kill us spiritually. Therefor Satan's attempt at the "scorched Earth policy" must surely be futile, if we take his main objective into consideration.

13 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

It's about maintaining control over those who are not God's people by any means possible, including "circus shows", real or imagined.

Yes, and I agreed with this. Spiritistic practices, and various manifestations of the demons, whether  a haunted Castle in Scotland, or a voodoo tribe in Africa, serve well to occupy and distract people from the Truth. Indeed, haunted castles (whether real or imagined)  help propagate belief in the afterlife. But my main focus was not on those who are not God's people, but on those who are. Would Satan use those kind of tactics, if there are much more subtle and effective ones at his disposal, such as the ones I spoke about. Someone relayed an extreme experience  of demons trying to suffocate his mother. That tactic evidently wasn't very effective in causing his mother spiritual harm except it scared the living daylights out of both of them. I would guess that experience was from the 60/70s? It proves my point that the "hysteria" among the Witnesses went well beyond what started in the 1800's.  I feel there might even be a rational explanation to your nightmares and their subsequent cessation after the removal of the supposed culprit.....

13 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Like all other tactics employed by this "fallen star", Satan, it is uncomfortable for those enduring, fatal for those succumbing, but, basically, futile to the one employing it. Remember, "we are not ignorant of his designs" 2Cor.2:11. But those we preach to are.

Yes.

[JW Insider]

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

You might misunderstand that my suggestion encompassed all who were referred to by Anna and TTH. Their comments encompassed humans in general as did mine.

Yes, you are right. I was focused on what we can know about them based on the experiences we hear reported from all over the world, and how much of this appears tied to what we can know from Biblical examples. Also, I hadn't yet reached the post where you had yourself quoted the same scripture in 2 Cor 2:11 and made the correct point very clearly.

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Further, human intelligence is no protection against Satanic machinations.

There, we must agree to agree.

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is never a warning against owning things that might have been previously owned or influenced by demons or spirit mediums.

Nothing explicit I would agree, but I think there are sufficient examples to sensitize a Christian conscience of the need to keep clear of certain items.

True, I would not own a Ouija board, but if I were a brother who drove a truck for the Postal Services, Fed Ex, "Toys R Us" stores or "Amazon" I wouldn't care less whether someone had just sold either a brand new or a seance-used Ouija board and I was delivering it. I had a book called "Witchcraft in Europe, 400-1700: A Documentary History" on a shelf in my office library (at home) and a sister (who must have gotten "lost" after a circuitous trip to an upstairs bathroom) saw it and chided me for it. I removed it from the shelf, but I still own it and might even get around to reading it someday.

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

And even the most liberal stretch could not deny that the Devil is able to deceive humans into believing that objects might have supernatural efficacy, even if those actual items did not.

That's a given. But do we want to be a part of helping the Devil get the word out that he can possess objects if he cannot? That may have been what we were doing when we warned people that things they buy from Goodwill and garage sales might be possessed.

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Have you ever experienced demon activity yourself first hand,  other than through the obvious workings of this system of things? I think as you were raised in a theocratic environment, probably not. Those who have would most likely share a view different from the rationalisations expressed in some of these postings on the subject.

No, I haven't. But where rationalizations are rational, or based on the Bible, we can surely discuss whether or not we are truly letting our reasonableness be known to all. I went to school in a rural area of Missouri for several years where several houses in our area were "haunted" according to schoolmates and even some of the Witnesses. When the rural school was closed after I attended from 1964-1970, I moved into the city school. I learned that the people in the city school who lived on the properties next to those old abandoned houses never believed the stories, and had been through those houses themselves, and that it mostly used by boys taking their young girlfriends who would be the ones to be scared. So I admit that my feelings about haunted houses are skewed away from the typical beliefs that several others in the congregation had. We had a brother who came up from Florida who loved telling ghost stories. He seemed to have so many that I didn't trust him to be telling the truth all the time. So I would agree again that I probably rationalized away a lot of what he claimed, and believed it to be false. But, like Anna, I would happily hear about experiences to help me get a fuller picture.