1290 and 1335 days

[Cognitionis]

Perhaps the owner of this site can add a WOW! emoji to the list on the scroll bar. For those that show zeal and passion with their convictions.

[JW Insider]

I have not yet tried to completely decipher the method and reasoning that @Israeli Bar Avaddhon used in order to reach his current conclusions about these time periods. I apologize for that, but I don't think it hurts us to try to imagine what we would have come up with on our own, if it were not for the foundation already provided by the Watch Tower publications. This is also a method that can provide us with a bit of sympathy and empathy for those we meet who have tried to understand these difficult problems for themselves.

This can provide a kind of thought experiment that might even let us second-guess what the Watch Tower Society might come up with as an alternative in the event that the current view is changed. I don't claim that there is any real value in this, but it is "fun" when you get it right. I think several people here have had that experience.

So, let's pretend that we either have never heard of the current Watch Tower's view or we are just wondering what a "second-best" alternative view might have been to compare how much better, for example, the current Watch Tower's view is.

For these time periods, of 1290 and 1335 days, I think we have to start with the 1260 days. All three of these periods are named in the same chapter of Daniel. And only the 1,260 is also named in several other places to be mentioned at the end of this post.

As a starting method, I prefer to use the following as a foundation:

• (2 Timothy 3:16-17) 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

It is implied here that we should not need to rely at all on secular historians, but that the Bible itself equips us with enough information to be fully equipped to teach and set things straight on this and any other Bible-based subject. We should note that Paul was most likely speaking of only the "Old Testament" here, as very little of the "New Testament" had been collected or even written during Paul's association with Timothy. The book of Daniel, in fact, had not been considered to be an inspired part of the canon by all Jewish leaders, either. Some still don't accept it, even if they accept all the other books of the "Old Testament." Unless it is found to contradict the remaining parts of the Bible canon, however, we can accept it as canonical. (Some portions of Daniel are considered canonical by some religions and not by others. For example, most Protestant Christians do not accept the inclusion of the following portions of (additions to) Daniel:  Song of the Three Holy Children, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon.

Revelation is another book that required decades of of discussion before a consensus was reached that it could be included in the canon. It was one of the last books to be generally accepted, although 2 Peter and Jude might have also been considered questionable in some circles for just as long.

So, to start, let's look at all the places that mention the 1,260 days and the equivalent references to periods of "three and one-half times" or "[one] time, [two] times, and half a time," or 3 years and six months." The 1,290 and 1,335 also refer to a very similar time period with an additional 30 days and 75 days. (3 yrs, 7 mos; 3 yrs 8.5 mos.)

• (Luke 4:22-30) . . .And they all began to give favorable witness about him and to be amazed at the gracious words coming out of his mouth, and they were saying: “This is a son of Joseph, is it not?” 23 At this he said to them: “No doubt you will apply this saying to me, ‘Physician, cure yourself. Do also here in your home territory the things we have heard were done in Ca·perʹna·um.’” 24 So he said: “Truly I tell you that no prophet is accepted in his home territory. 25 For instance, I tell you in truth: There were many widows in Israel in the days of E·liʹjah when heaven was shut up for three years and six months, and a great famine came on all the land. 26 Yet E·liʹjah was sent to none of those women, but only to a widow in Zarʹe·phath in the land of Siʹdon. 27 Also, there were many lepers in Israel in the time of E·liʹsha the prophet; yet not one of them was cleansed, only Naʹa·man the Syrian.” 28 Now all those hearing these things in the synagogue became filled with anger, 29 and they rose up and rushed him outside the city, and they led him to the brow of the mountain on which their city had been built, in order to throw him down headlong. 30 But he went right through their midst and continued on his way.
• (1 Kings 18:1, 2) 18 After some time, in the third year, Jehovah’s word came to E·liʹjah, saying: “Go, present yourself to Aʹhab, and I will send rain on the surface of the ground.” 2 So E·liʹjah went to present himself to Aʹhab, while the famine was severe in Sa·marʹi·a.
• (James 5:15-20) 15 And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man’s supplication has a powerful effect. 17 E·liʹjah was a man with feelings like ours, and yet when he prayed earnestly for it not to rain, it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the land produced fruit. 19 My brothers, if anyone among you is led astray from the truth and another turns him back, 20 know that whoever turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save him from death. . .
• (Revelation 11:1-7) . . .“Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. 3 I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.” 4 These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes out of their mouths and consumes their enemies. If anyone should want to harm them, this is how he must be killed. 6 These have the authority to shut up the sky so that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish. 7 When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them.
• (Revelation 13:3-10) 3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 And they worshipped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshipped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.
• (Revelation 12:11-17) 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” 13 Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth. 17 So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.
• (Daniel 7:22-27) . . .and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom. 23 “This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings. 25 He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely. 27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. . .
• (Daniel 9:25-27) 25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress. 26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. “And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place. And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”
• (Daniel 12:5-13) . . .Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the stream and one on the other bank of the stream. 6 Then one said to the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?” 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.” 8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?” 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand. 11 “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days. 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days! 13 “But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”

These verses should be our starting point, along with the context of each of these references. It's not often noted that the reference to 1,260 days in Revelation 11:2 is a reference to the "times of the Gentiles" in Luke 21:24. It's also not often noted that the reference to the "days of their prophesying" (of the two witnesses) is 1,260 days in which they have the authority to shut up the rain in Revelation 11:6 which matches the number of days that the rain was shut up in the days of Elijah. (A time period that gets repeated in Luke and James, as if it is of some importance.)

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

Just for clarity. Daniel's book is included in books inspired by the old rabbis. The distinction is that not everyone is included among the prophetic books (and this may be due to some dislike of Daniel for some of his statements).
This book, however, was quoted by the Lord himself, so that if all the rabbis were to say that Daniel is not a canon, the Lord Jesus Christ would prove that they are wrong.
The two witnessed sackcloths "come" to Moses and Elijah because of their message of judgment.
For this reason we can find many similarities with Moses and Elijah and not just with the number of days.
It should be noted, moreover, that the description of the preaching of these two witnesses, and also what follows, also resembles much to the life and ministry of Jesus.
Let me give you all the opportunity to look for similarities and ask yourself why

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

Enlarge the image and compare the scriptures

[JW Insider]

One could go off on many tangents from this point, but I think there is a kind of "unified theory" available from within the context of all these verses that combines the basic ideas of each reference to a 3.5 year period mentioned above. A couple of them can even be taken literally, and I think those ones also provide a symbolic foundation for the others.

This next point is controversial, and I mention it only as a possibility to think about. It's not really a necessary part of any new idea about the 1,260 days, but it's a perspective that could point in the same direction. Here's the idea: It seems very possible that all the the prophets effectively pointed to Jesus' and his accomplishments in the first century. I think that this means that no important prophecy reaches to any specific event past the first century, except for the one most important single event that will come as a complete surprise, the "parousia" (also known as the "manifestation", the "revelation", the "conclusion", the "synteleia", the "judgment", the "resurrection", the "harpazo", the "harvest", the "day of the Lord".)

This doesn't mean that the book of Revelation had to be written prior to 70 C.E., as some scholars claim. Even if Revelation had been written after the year 100, it still could refer primarily to events of the first century, which might make sense only as we start to focus on a few of them.

The idea that the prophets pointed to the first century is strongly implied in several places:

• (Luke 24:44-49) 44 He then said to them: “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, 46 and he said to them, “This is what is written: that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, 47 and on the basis of his name, repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem. 48 You are to be witnesses of these things. 49 And look! I am sending upon you what my Father promised. You, though, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
• (Revelation 19:10) . . .I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing concerning Jesus. Worship God! For the witness concerning Jesus is what inspires prophecy.”
• (Matthew 11:12-15) 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. 13 For all, the Prophets and the Law, prophesied until John; 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is ‘E·liʹjah who is to come.’ 15 Let the one who has ears listen
• (Matthew 13:16, 17) 16 “However, happy are your eyes because they see and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you, many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things you are observing but did not see them, and to hear the things you are hearing but did not hear them.
• (Matthew 23:34-38) 34 For this reason, I am sending to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and execute on stakes, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah son of Bar·a·chiʹah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you.
• (Luke 11:49-51) . . ., 50 so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation.
• (Luke 16:16) 16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on, the Kingdom of God is being declared as good news, and every sort of person is pressing forward toward it.
• (Acts 3:18-25) 18 But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer. 19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And all the prophets from Samuel and those who followed him, as many as have spoken, have also plainly declared these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your forefathers. . .
• (Acts 10:42, 43) 42 Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a thorough witness that this is the one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
• (Ephesians 3:5, 6) 5 In other generations this secret was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, 6 namely, that people of the nations should, in union with Christ Jesus and through the good news, be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise.
• (Hebrews 1:1, 2) 1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

Not everyone will get the same point from these verses, but it is possible to come away thinking that all the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures, at least, found their fulfillment in the generation that saw Jesus and saw, perhaps, the last time-related prophecy fulfilled: the one that said that Jerusalem would pay for the blood of all the prophets in that very generation. This does not mean that one has to hold to a premillennial view of Bible prophecy, but there are some points to glean from this view that can shed light on the meaning of these same prophecies for the future.

[JW Insider]

34 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

This book, however, was quoted by the Lord himself, so that if all the rabbis were to say that Daniel is not a canon, the Lord Jesus Christ would prove that they are wrong.

True, I intended to point that out, even though we should all be very aware of this, and it's something that will come up directly in a discussion of the meaning of the 1,260 days. But it is also possibly true that Daniel contained some wording in the original and/or the LXX version that was changed by the second century C.E. to conform to the current Masoretic version. (We know this is true of the 70 weeks prophecy.) And it's also possible that Daniel (in Jesus' day) already contained some of the portions and additions that the New World Translation and most other translations leave out. This might even be why Jesus added:

• (Matthew 24:15) . . .as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment),

Perhaps it is also a side point related to 1 John:

• (1 John 4:1) . . .Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God,. . .

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

Unfortunately I am not able to explain effectively in English because I believe I have the scriptural basis that many things that happened in the first century are merely a model or preview of what will happen in the near future.
Even the prophecies considered now fulfilled must have a last final fulfillment in our days (see, for example, Zechariah 4: 10-14 with Revelation 11: 1-4)
Unfortunately I'm not good at English.
In any case only by comparing the scriptures (and not the ideas of the scholars) will come to understand the harmony of the message and the fact that Revelation is a canonical book and concerns future events

[JW Insider]

7 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

because I believe I have the scriptural basis that many things that happened in the first century are merely a model or preview of what will happen in the near future.

This is exactly where I was going with the idea that ...

21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

but there are some points to glean from this view that can shed light on the meaning of these same prophecies for the future.

21 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

there is a kind of "unified theory" available from within the context of all these verses that combines the basic ideas of each reference to a 3.5 year period mentioned above. A couple of them can even be taken literally, and I think those ones also provide a symbolic foundation for the others.

The difference, at this point at least, is that I want to see if there is a way to make sense of the time prophecy without contradicting Jesus' words that the end-times events would come without warning.

I have read your blog articles and find them to be very interesting, but can't yet get over the contradiction with Jesus' words (and Paul's words). I know that your URL's will be removed soon by a moderator. You would do better to just point out that there is an article that can be found that explains your point of view, and perhaps quote from it in small portions. Also, thanks for your chart. I've seen that from other posts, too. Perhaps if you merely pointed out the Italian title for one of the articles, you wouldn't have to include the URL link, and if someone wanted to find it, they could search on Google.

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

When someone asks us if "TODAY" Jesus knows the day and the hour, what do we answer?
We answer "It is reasonable to believe that TODAY he knows it"
Are you sure there is a contradiction?
We pretended (for imagination) to know that the Revelation book is written in chronological order (unlike what has been taught).
We pretended to know the two witnesses dressed in sack and ask them "Do you know the day and the hour?"
What would they say, presumably?
"Yes, because from the day when we are killed will pass only three and a half years" - compares Revelation 11: 7, 15 with 1 Corinthians 15:52 then Revelation 13: 5
The point is: the fact that Jesus said that no one knew the day and the hour meant that no one would NEVER know the day and the hour?
Another question.
Jesus said "this generation will not go any way" (we forget everything we have been told about generation and we simply imagine a "generation") yet he said, in the same speech, "no one knows the day and the hour." How is it possible?
Is not this a contradiction?
It is not a contradiction only if I do not know the start date from which to count the eventual generation.
Example.
Suppose someone says "Since the king of the north will suppress the preaching work, it will take 10 years."
Someone asks, "When will it happen?"
"I do not know why I do not know when the king of the north will give up the constant sacrifice."
So we have to determine if the Lord said that we would never understand the day and time (or the time span) or simply that up to a certain point in the story (or event) could not have been found the day and the day and hour.
This only serves for reasoning.
However, the Lord also said that he would come "as a thief," and that he does not understand the times "not our work," so it is right to be cautious.
Apart from right prudence, however, this does not mean that we should not study and try to understand (unless "time" at least "the event")

[JW Insider]

36 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

When someone asks us if "TODAY" Jesus knows the day and the hour, what do we answer?
We answer "It is reasonable to believe that TODAY he knows it"
. . .
The point is: the fact that Jesus said that no one knew the day and the hour meant that no one would NEVER know the day and the hour?

It could very well be that Jesus now knows, and did not know when he gave the inspired prophecy of Luke 21 and Mark 13 and Matthew 24. He said the "times and seasons" were still in the Father's jurisdiction, not ours, after he was resurrected. (Acts 1:6-8).

But that last point there is the key. He said that the last day would come upon humans as a surprise. In other words there would be no sign that could be used as an advance warning. A sign would spoil the surprise. This is why we remain prepared and awake at all times through our conduct, not by looking for signs and events. This is why when Jesus' disciples asked for a sign of the end, the first words out of Jesus' mouth were: "Do not be misled . . . . the end is not yet."

So, that's what I was referring to as the contradiction. It goes back to the same idea that Paul was making when he said we need NOTHING to be written to us about the parousia, because it is coming as a surprise. If someone were to be able to determine that one or more events mentioned in Revelation (a plague, for example) was an event that was marked within a specific timeline (as your chart shows), then this becomes a sign of the end. But we know that there are no signs of the end that can be used to fix the times or seasons.

I'm not saying that I am necessarily right in this thinking either, but just letting you know where the problem lies, as I see it.

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

You have been eloquent in your explanation.
You will agree with me that some intentions may affect the understanding of some words or the implications of certain affirmations.
Doing a simple and banal example.
If a Catholic is convinced that "all good people go to heaven" he will not understand the concept of earthly resurrection. For him it will not make sense. You agree on this, is not it?
It is not possible to understand certain words or certain prophecies if we do not have the courage to come back to some of the beliefs that are underlying or affect certain prophecies.
For example, when it was believed that Gog of Magog was Satan, it was not possible to understand how it was possible for him to be "eaten by birds" or that he would be buried in the earth.
it is possible that we do not understand how to harmonize the words of the Lord simply because we take for certain (indisputable) certain doctrines that we find unmanageable?

[Noble Berean]

@Israeli Bar Avaddhon @JW Insider it seems as though anointed Christians have been demoted to a minor role in the organization today. My question is: What role will the anointed play in the time leading up to the end? When are all the anointed sealed in heaven?