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Jack Ryan

Since the superior authorities have been placed in their respective positions by God, doesn’t that really mean that He endorses, supports and even enables human governments?

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And thus, even He is not politically neutral and by omission of fixing things, He does not even support his own sovereignty?

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in Romans 13:4, it is clearly stated, that the superior authorities are the “minister” and “avenger” of god, which makes the impression to me, that they are more or less directly supported by god. As we know, the governments are also a product of Satan’s Wordly System. Soooo to me it seems like, god directly supports something from the wordly system. This is a contradiction to me. I mean Satan shall prove, that the humans can rule by themselves or under his command and god supports an element of this world? Makes no sense to me.

 

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3 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Makes no sense to me.

Probably got it wrong then?

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I'm curious about this subject too since 

Proverbs 24:21 King James Version (KJV)

21 My son, fear thou the Lord and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:

I am quoting of the King James version this text as it is more similar to what it says the Spanish New World Translation 

Why not meddle? I guess because in those times Jehovah was supporting King Solomon and other kings but what about today? Does he still endorse kings, presidents? Specially in those countries where change is needed for people being suppressed, and suffering crimes against humanity by dictatorships? 

 

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It is about the IDEA of human governments being placed in their relative positions by God.

Not specific governments.

The alternative is total anarchy, where every man and woman are a law unto themselves ... which is worse than the WORST human governments.

It's free-for-all non stop carnage.

You have to mentally visualize how really terrible anarchy would be on a day to day basis to understand that.

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On 7/15/2018 at 12:05 AM, Nicole said:

Does he still endorse kings, presidents?

No. Not human ones. He is going to replace them forcibly. Dan.2:44.

Meantime, a measure of order is sustained. Part of the Devil's deception in promoting independence from Jehovah's sovereignty is to allow some success in human endeavour. (Luke 4:6).

Meantime, the structure of the current system enables the preaching of the good news and all the logistics that go with that work, sometimes in a very constructive manner (Rev.12:15-16).  Jehovah can even intervene if necessary to fulfill that purpose without compromising on the issue of Sovereignty. (Is.60:22). He can also intervene to push things along a little in the executional area once He is satisfied with the outworking of His strategy. (Rev.17:16-17). Additionally, he can intervene to ensure overkill is not a result either. (Comp. Matt. 24:22).

I know it's all a bit difficult for some to get their heads around but Proverbs 28:5 did warn that "Evil men cannot understand justice, but those who seek Jehovah can understand everything." So, keep chipping away. It will all come clear.

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Jehovah meant to rule over mankind but the human pair listened to Satan who told them they could be happy doing their own thing. So they rejected Jehovah's rule over them and obeyed Satan.  Satan is really the one who sponsored man's rule over man. Rev 13:1,2  shows that the wild beast with seven heads and ten horns represents human rulership sponsored by Satan, since it shows that the wild beast gets its power and authority from the dragon, Satan the devil. Matthew 4 which we just did at the meeting  shows Satan offering Jesus of all people the kingdoms of the world if Jesus would do one act of worship to him, Satan.  Thus, Satan shows that the kingdoms of the world are really his.

However sometime after man's rebellion Nimrod, a hunter in opposition to God,   began to build cities in order to rule over people.

"*** it-2 p. 503 Nimrod ***
Observes the Cyclopædia by M’Clintock and Strong: “That the mighty hunting was not confined to the chase is apparent from its close connection with the building of eight cities. . . . What Nimrod did in the chase as a hunter was the earlier token of what he achieved as a conqueror. For hunting and heroism were of old specially and naturally associated . . . The Assyrian monuments also picture many feats in hunting, and the word is often employed to denote campaigning. . . . The chase and the battle, which in the same country were connected so closely in aftertimes, may therefore be virtually associated or identified here. The meaning then will be, that Nimrod was the first after the flood to found a kingdom, to unite the fragments of scattered patriarchal rule, and consolidate them under himself as sole head and master; and all this in defiance of Jehovah, for it was the violent intrusion of Hamitic power into a Shemitic territory.”—1894, Vol. VII, p. 109."

God did not agree to this scheme and scattered those people from there all over the earth by confusing their language.

In the 16th century B.C.E. when Israel was formed as a nation, it in time asked for a king, in imitation of the pagan nations around.  Jehovah meant to rule over his people by having priests, judges and prophets to enforce his laws. So when they asked for a king Jehovah warned them of the consequences of having  human rulers, and told Samuel that they were not rejecting him Samuel  but they were rejecting him Jehovah as king. However, the Davidic line of kings of the tribe of Judah were said to be sitting on Jehovah's throne, and continued to represent Jehovah having a kingdom on earth.

(1 Chronicles 29:23) And Solʹo·mon sat on Jehovah’s throne as king in place of David his father, and he was successful, and all the Israelites were obedient to him.
(1 Kings 11:36) To his son I will give one tribe, so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city that I have chosen for myself as the place to put my name.

In time Jesus came to the earth (Gal 4:4) and started the  preaching work, and commanded true Christians to  continue this work of preaching and teaching until the end.(Matt 24:14;28:19,20) Christians would then be a public spectacle needing protection from the state. They would need freedom of association, freedom to share beliefs and freedom of conscience.  Authorities are usually able to guarantee such protections. Guided by Holy Spirit the apostles wrote letters concerning our attitude towards these human authorities. The apostle Paul said at 1 Timothy to pray for governments that we may be able to focus on our work and that men of all sorts of people will hear the good news of the Kingdom and put themselves in line for life.
(1 Timothy 2:1-4) First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made concerning all sorts of men, 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high positions, so that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with complete godly devotion and seriousness. 3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

For any project to progress and come to fruition there must be order in the environment. (That's why there is so little food in war years - farmers cannot do their work without fearing for their lives and people overrunning that they are doing.) Same with the preaching work - it needs good order to progress.

Then Paul showed what attitude Christians should have toward these authorities; also the obligations of Christians, as follows:

(Romans 13:1-7) Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad. 5 There is therefore compelling reason for you to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. 6 That is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. 7 Render to all their dues: to the one who calls for the tax, the tax; to the one who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to the one who calls for fear, such fear; to the one who calls for honor, such honor.

Jehovah can maneuver anyone or anything to do his will. He once cause a donkey to talk to a wicked prophet.  He can maneuver or put in the hearts of authorities whatever he wishes that will cause his work to be accomplished. We saw that in the case of the Persian empire using Queen Esther and Mordecai how he preserved his  people from extermination; with the Roman empire with its good roads and ships to enable travelling throughout the empire,  enabling missionary journeys and establishing congregations throughout the empire. We saw the Emperor causing people to travel so Jesus could be born in the city it was prophesied he would be born in; in other words, whoever has the means and the authority to facilitate God's work, Jehovah will that one to do so. He is the King of the Universe. Proverbs 21:1 speaks of this:

(Proverbs 21:1) A king’s heart is like streams of water in Jehovah’s hand. He directs it wherever He pleases.

In the great tribulation he is also going to put in the hearts of these authorities to destroy the "harlot", false religion. (Rev 17:16,17)

So Jehovah allowed governments to exist  and keep things going  so the warning  and harvesting work could go on until his time to bring to an end all human rule. (Dan 2:44; Eccl 8:9)  He does not sponsor human rule, but he can use governments or individuals in governments to accomplish what he wants.

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