Why do Jehovahs witnesses belive in two Gods?

[Donald Diamond]

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I'm saying that Moses was not a god, not in the sense of Isiah 43:10. 

Is Satan a god? That is the question. I didn't say he was a representative of God.

 

I do agree that in Psalm 82 the term "gods"  is used of men, and it also shows their inability to be god as described to us by Isiah 43:10. Absolutely Jesus used this to show them that they themselves (men) were called gods, however the argument was not whether or not Jesus was a god like they had been called, but rather that it was not blasphemy when He said He was Gods Son. The statement of being God's Son, does invoke the thought within the Jews that He was making himself out to be God. This is demonstrated by the action they were going to carry out. Jesus wasn't trying to get them on a technicality, but instead was using scripture to support His claim. Others had been called "sons of God", all of Israel for that matter, but that wasn't the same or they wouldn't have wanted to stone Jesus. They would have accepted it just on the fact that Jesus was a Jews also, so His claim would be along the lines of their own. So in the refutation at John 10, Jesus was not claiming to be a man just as all the rest of the Israelite's who had been called gods, but rather to prove His statement true. Jesus being directly from the Father, this was something they could not handle because it would make Jesus God as well. 

 

So then what kind of god is Jesus in John 1:1? A god like Moses?

Is He on par with Satan as far as gods go? 

Well I think you have got the point.   Moses was neither a false god nor a true god.   The questions you asked was a false dichotomy.

A false dichotomy or false dilemma occurs when an argument presents two options and ignores, either purposefully or out of ignorance, other alternatives. (Source:   http://www.philosophy-index.com/logic/fallacies/false-dilemma.php )

There is a third option which is what Jesus explains.   How can you possible suggest that Jesus is confirming that he was claiming to be God, when Jesus's reply was that humans could be called gods?

Jesus is also exempted from being the the God of Isa 43:10 as he did not have authority of himself.  He derived it from his Father.

I also pointed out that the Jews wanted Jesus dead for personal and political reasons.    Where is your evidence that "The statement of being God's Son, does invoke the thought within the Jews that He was making himself out to be God."   You appear to be accepting the argument of those who opposed Jesus and wanted him dead as true.

 

D.

[Shiwiii]

48 minutes ago, Donald Diamond said:

Where is your evidence that "The statement of being God's Son, does invoke the thought within the Jews that He was making himself out to be God."   You appear to be accepting the argument of those who opposed Jesus and wanted him dead as true.

Were the Jews not called sons of God? The book of Deuteronomy tells us that the people of Israel were the sons of God. (14:1 and 32:8 specifically). Why would they make such a fuss over another Jews saying what they already believed? In John 5 there is another description of the Jews wanting to kill Jesus, over basically the same thing. John records why, with the same statement of calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. The Jews were called sons of God so why would they get upset about another Jews saying it? Because it wasn't the same thing. Jesus was saying that God is His direct Father, and this is what both passages tie together, and why the Jews wanted Him dead. It would be blasphemy for a Jews to claim this, but not so to claim to be a son of God. It was not an argument, it was a statement by the Jews. 

 

You never addressed the question with Satan that I brought up, why? 

[Donald Diamond]

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Were the Jews not called sons of God? The book of Deuteronomy tells us that the people of Israel were the sons of God. (14:1 and 32:8 specifically). Why would they make such a fuss over another Jews saying what they already believed? In John 5 there is another description of the Jews wanting to kill Jesus, over basically the same thing. John records why, with the same statement of calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. The Jews were called sons of God so why would they get upset about another Jews saying it? Because it wasn't the same thing. Jesus was saying that God is His direct Father, and this is what both passages tie together, and why the Jews wanted Him dead. It would be blasphemy for a Jews to claim this, but not so to claim to be a son of God. It was not an argument, it was a statement by the Jews. 

 

You never addressed the question with Satan that I brought up, why? 

You appear to expect me to answer your questions, but are not prepared to address any of my replies.

Jesus and the Jews were well aware of the prophecy that God would have a Son - he would be a descendant of David - the fruit of his loins.   Not a divine being.

2 Sam 7:12-16  When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.  He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.   I will be his father, and he shall be my son: if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men; but my lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.  And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.   (ASV)

Peter pick this up in Acts 2.

Acts 2:29  Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day.   Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 
 

Scripture is clear that by the term "Son of God" in the sense Jesus uses it, means a specific human descendant of David.

You have no evidence that "Son of God" meant "God Himself." other than quoting the opposers of Jesus and trinitarian dogma.
 

You have also given IMHO no satisfactory explanation as to why, when accused of claiming to be God, Jesus' should immediately point out that

a) humans could be called gods without it meaning they were claiming to be the true God, and

b) he was claiming to be the Son of God (not God Himself).

In John 5 the Jewish leaders claimed that Jesus 

a) broke the Sabbath, and

b) made himself equal with God by calling him "his own Father".

Both these statements are untrue.   Jesus used the phrase "My Father" dozens of times and nobody took exception.  Jesus did not say "My own Father" but simply "My Father".  The Jewish leaders misquoted him, in order to set the people against him.  

I didn't address your question as to whether Satan was a false god, as the point is was making is that there is a third use of "god" in scripture - you only allowed two - a false dichotomy.   Satan is not in the category which allows for representatives of God to be called gods.  He would be a false god.

D

[Shiwiii]

11 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

Jesus and the Jews were well aware of the prophecy that God would have a Son - he would be a descendant of David - the fruit of his loins.   Not a divine being.

I agree with the first part, however scripture never says not a divine being. 

 

Your quote from 2 Samuel says, He will be a descendant of them, come from their people.

11 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

Scripture is clear that by the term "Son of God" in the sense Jesus uses it, means a specific human descendant of David.

You have no evidence that "Son of God" meant "God Himself." other than quoting the opposers of Jesus and trinitarian dogma.
 

You have also given IMHO no satisfactory explanation as to why, when accused of claiming to be God, Jesus' should immediately point out that

a) humans could be called gods without it meaning they were claiming to be the true God, and

b) he was claiming to be the Son of God (not God Himself).

In John 5 the Jewish leaders claimed that Jesus 

a) broke the Sabbath, and

b) made himself equal with God by calling him "his own Father".

You are assuming how Jesus used the term. Like I said, and it seems you have discarded, is that the Jews themselves believed they were sons of God. So this is not something new. The difference isn't what Jesus said, but how He said it. Jesus was a Jew, so He would be considered a son of God just as the Jews were. That isn't what Jesus said, He said He was the Son of God. Look over at John 19:7, the Jews pointed out that they had a law, and by this law they were to kill Jesus. What was this law? Leviticus 24:16 is what is referenced in most Bibles at John 19:7. This is talking about blaspheming the name of Yahweh. How did Jesus blaspheme the name of Yahweh? The Jews spelled it out in the accounts in John, because He said He was the Son of God, thus making Himself of the same nature, God. 

a) yes, I agree

b) see above

a&b) yes, look also at John 19:7 and Matt 26:63-66, specifically verse 65. 

11 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

The Jewish leaders misquoted him, in order to set the people against him.

Where is the misquote what verse? I mean right there in Matthew 26 Jesus affirmed their accusations.

 

11 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

I didn't address your question as to whether Satan was a false god, as the point is was making is that there is a third use of "god" in scripture - you only allowed two - a false dichotomy.   Satan is not in the category which allows for representatives of God to be called gods.  He would be a false god.

What are the three uses of god then? Please categorize The Father, Jesus, Satan, Moses and kings. Maybe this will help me understand your point of view better and allow me to ask better questions.  

[Evacuated]

Jehovah and Jesus just are not the same. Compare Job 34:12-13 and Matt. 28:18.

[Jesus.defender]

Because their own rendering of John 1:1 makes Jesus _A_ God, hence they believe in two Gods.

[Jesus.defender]

1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Jehovah and Jesus just are not the same. Compare Job 34:12-13 and Matt. 28:18.

They ARE the same as i have pointed out to you.

 

You need to get rid of your satanic NWT

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:

You need to get rid of your satanic NWT

Right away Sir!

 

Matt 28:18 (Jesus)	Job 34:13 (Jehovah)
New International Version
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.	Who appointed him over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world?
New Living Translation
Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.	Who put him in charge of the earth? Who appointed him to be over the whole world?
English Standard Version
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.	Who gave him charge over the earth, and who laid on him the whole world?
New American Standard Bible
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.	"Who gave Him authority over the earth? And who has laid on Him the whole world?
King James Bible
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.	Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then Jesus came near and said to them, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.	Who gave Him authority over the earth? Who put Him in charge of the entire world?
International Standard Version
Then Jesus approached them and told them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.	Who entrusted the earth to him? Who made him responsible for the entire inhabited world?
NET Bible
Then Jesus came up and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.	Who entrusted to him the earth? And who put him over the whole world?
New American Standard 1977
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.	“Who gave Him authority over the earth?             And who has laid on Him the whole world?
King James 2000 Bible
And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.	Who has given him charge over the earth? or who has laid on him the whole world?
American King James Version
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.	Who has given him a charge over the earth? or who has disposed the whole world?
American Standard Version
And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.	Who gave him a charge over the earth? Or who hath disposed the whole world?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.	What other hath he appointed over the earth? or whom hath he set over the world which he made?
Darby Bible Translation
And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth.	Who hath entrusted to him the earth? and who hath disposed the whole world?
English Revised Version
And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.	Who gave him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus came, and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and upon earth.	Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
World English Bible
Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.	Who put him in charge of the earth? or who has appointed him over the whole world?
Young's Literal Translation
And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, 'Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;	Who hath inspected for Himself the earth? And who hath placed all the habitable world?

 

[Donald Diamond]

18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I agree with the first part, however scripture never says not a divine being. 

Your quote from 2 Samuel says, He will be a descendant of them, come from their people.

God is not the fruit of David’s loins – that is ridiculous.  The prophecy in 2 Sam 7 is about a human son.  Jehovah (YHWH) says “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”.

 

Quote

You are assuming how Jesus used the term. Like I said, and it seems you have discarded, is that the Jews themselves believed they were sons of God. So this is not something new. The difference isn't what Jesus said, but how He said it.

Well, his opposers claimed it was what he said, not how he said it, so your premise is false. 

Quote

Jesus was a Jew, so He would be considered a son of God just as the Jews were. That isn't what Jesus said, He said He was the Son of God.

According to scripture (and your own admission) “Son of God” does not mean “God”.   As you 
pointed out, the Jews were sons of God.  Angels are probably called sons of God in Job, Adam 
was son of God – in no case does “son of God” mean “God Himself”.   You have no scriptural 
basis for your claim.  So my understanding of the term “Son of God” comes from scripture,   Why would God use the phrase towards humans, if it is a term that means God Himself?

Quote

Look over at John 19:7, the Jews pointed out that they had a law, and by this law they were to kill Jesus. What was this law? Leviticus 24:16 is what is referenced in most Bibles at John 19:7. This is talking about blaspheming the name of Yahweh. How did Jesus blaspheme the name of Yahweh? The Jews spelled it out in the accounts in John, because He said He was the Son of God, thus making Himself of the same nature, God. 

a) yes, I agree

b) see above

a&b) yes, look also at John 19:7 and Matt 26:63-66, specifically verse 65. 

In Matthew 26, Jesus does not affirm their accusations the he claimed to be God - He confirms that he is claiming to be the Son of God (not God Himself).   The high priest claims this is blasphemy.    Why do you believe this when in the same passage we are told:

John 11:49,50  But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all.  Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish."

They wanted false testimony in order to get Jesus killed.  Why do you build your case on the evidence of those who opposed Jesus and were prepared to lie to get him killed.  You have to read the accusations of the Jewish leaders in the light of the plot to kill him.

Matt 26:59  Now the chief priests and the whole council were seeking false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death,

Matt 12:14  But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.

John 7:25,26  Some of the people of Jerusalem therefore said, "Is not this the man whom they seek to kill?  And here he is, speaking openly, and they say nothing to him! Can it be that the authorities really know that this is the Christ?  (not that this is God!).

 

Quote

Where is the misquote what verse? I mean right there in Matthew 26 Jesus affirmed their accusations.

If you reread my post you will see that at John 5 Jesus said “My Father” – the Jews claimed he said “My own Father” – they put their spin to misrepresent what he said.   As I pointed out, Jesus used the term “My Father” dozens of times with no adverse reaction.  There is nothing blasphemous about calling God “My Father” – it was a trumped up charge.

 

 

Quote

 

What are the three uses of god then? Please categorize The Father, Jesus, Satan, Moses and kings. Maybe this will help me understand your point of view better and allow me to ask better questions.  

Again, I believe I have clearly explained the three uses of the term god in scripture.  It can be used a) Of the true God, Jehovah (YHWH),

b) Of false gods

Of representatives of the true God (like Psalm 82, John 1:1, Moses)

I have real problems with formatting this post - so please excuse if disjointed.
D.

[Shiwiii]

Yes, the formatting was a little bit messed up. I'll just cut and paste to answer you. 

 

-God is not the fruit of David’s loins – that is ridiculous.  The prophecy in 2 Sam 7 is about a human son.  Jehovah (YHWH) says “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”.

So are you saying that Jesus was only human? Colossians 2:9 says otherwise. Also look at Jesus explanation to the Pharisees in Matthew 22:42-46 on this very subject. 

 

-Well, his opposers claimed it was what he said, not how he said it, so your premise is false.

According to scripture (and your own admission) “Son of God” does not mean “God”.   As you

pointed out, the Jews were sons of God.  Angels are probably called sons of God in Job, Adam

was son of God – in no case does “son of God” mean “God Himself”.   You have no scriptural

basis for your claim.  So my understanding of the term “Son of God” comes from scripture,   Why would God use the phrase towards humans, if it is a term that means God Himself?

It IS how He said it. He claimed to be THE Son of God, meaning to come directly from God and not a son of God as the Jews were. This would be His claim to be of the same nature as God, the form of a  cat begets a cat, the form of a dog begets a dog, the form of God begets God. You do not get a camel from a hippo. Just as you are human, so too were your parents. Jesus was begotten of God, and thus the same form/substance/nature, God. Does that make Him the Father? Nope. My scriptural support comes from many places and we can get into each one if you'd like, but I have given you Matthew 26 and Jesus affirms that He is THE Son of God, THE Christ. 

 

-The high priest claims this is blasphemy.    Why do you believe this when in the same passage we are told:

John 11:49,50  But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all.  Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish."

 

So are you saying the Jews didn't really think it was blasphemy? Just trying to attach something to Jesus to kill Him?

 

They wanted false testimony in order to get Jesus killed.  Why do you build your case on the evidence of those who opposed Jesus and were prepared to lie to get him killed.  You have to read the accusations of the Jewish leaders in the light of the plot to kill him.

Matt 26:59  Now the chief priests and the whole council were seeking false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death,

Matt 12:14  But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.

John 7:25,26  Some of the people of Jerusalem therefore said, "Is not this the man whom they seek to kill?  And here he is, speaking openly, and they say nothing to him! Can it be that the authorities really know that this is the Christ?  (not that this is God!).

Keep reading in your quote of Matthew 26, in verse 60 specifically. It says they did not find this false testimony. They did not find anything to prove their want. Their deeds were being done for what? So they would not lose their place among society (John 11:47&48). It was only at verse 63-66 of Matthew 26 did they find anything that could stick, it was Jesus claim to be of the same nature of God, being THE Son of God. Matthew 12:14 only speaks that the Pharisees were getting nervous and started to think about what they could do to stop Jesus. It doesn't say they had made up any lies or false testimony. Your John 7 reference does nothing but confirm that Jesus is the Christ, you have added what you want it to say with "(not that this is God!)." This is an argument from silence. 

 

-If you reread my post you will see that at John 5 Jesus said “My Father” – the Jews claimed he said “My own Father” – they put their spin to misrepresent what he said.   As I pointed out, Jesus used the term “My Father” dozens of times with no adverse reaction.  There is nothing blasphemous about calling God “My Father” – it was a trumped up charge.

 

I understand what you are saying, but I've already discussed this above. The fact that Jesus said "My Father" is true, but when did He say this to the Scribes and Pharisees and they not get angry? He said this to the crowds and to the disciples, but the only times He said this to the Pharisees and Jewish leaders they got angry and wanted to kill Him. So it wasn't like the Pharisees and Jewish leaders heard this and dismissed it as you claim, but rather regular people and the disciples heard it most. 

-Again, I believe I have clearly explained the three uses of the term god in scripture.  It can be used a) Of the true God, Jehovah (YHWH),

b) Of false gods

Of representatives of the true God (like Psalm 82, John 1:1, Moses)

I have real problems with formatting this post - so please excuse if disjointed.

D.

 

A representative does not have the fullness of deity, nor is the representative an exact image of God. (Colossians 2:9 & Colossians 1:15) So where does Jesus fit in your three? What other representative in the Bible have these qualities? 

[Jesus.defender]

22 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Right away Sir!

 

Matt 28:18 (Jesus)	Job 34:13 (Jehovah)
New International Version
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.	Who appointed him over the earth? Who put him in charge of the whole world?
New Living Translation
Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.	Who put him in charge of the earth? Who appointed him to be over the whole world?
English Standard Version
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.	Who gave him charge over the earth, and who laid on him the whole world?
New American Standard Bible
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.	"Who gave Him authority over the earth? And who has laid on Him the whole world?
King James Bible
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.	Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then Jesus came near and said to them, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.	Who gave Him authority over the earth? Who put Him in charge of the entire world?
International Standard Version
Then Jesus approached them and told them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.	Who entrusted the earth to him? Who made him responsible for the entire inhabited world?
NET Bible
Then Jesus came up and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.	Who entrusted to him the earth? And who put him over the whole world?
New American Standard 1977
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.	“Who gave Him authority over the earth?               And who has laid on Him the whole world?
King James 2000 Bible
And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.	Who has given him charge over the earth? or who has laid on him the whole world?
American King James Version
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.	Who has given him a charge over the earth? or who has disposed the whole world?
American Standard Version
And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.	Who gave him a charge over the earth? Or who hath disposed the whole world?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.	What other hath he appointed over the earth? or whom hath he set over the world which he made?
Darby Bible Translation
And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth.	Who hath entrusted to him the earth? and who hath disposed the whole world?
English Revised Version
And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.	Who gave him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus came, and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and upon earth.	Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
World English Bible
Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.	Who put him in charge of the earth? or who has appointed him over the whole world?
Young's Literal Translation
And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, 'Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth;	Who hath inspected for Himself the earth? And who hath placed all the habitable world?

 

What does your chart show or what are you trying to prove, my friend?

[Jesus.defender]

On 4/24/2016 at 9:00 AM, Shiwiii said:

My question comes from John 1:1. If Jesus is "a god", then He is another god. Thus creating two gods. Is Jesus a legitimate god or is He a false god?  The common answer is that satan is a God of this world, ok fine. Does that make satan a legitimate god? Isaiah 43:10 says that there is no God other than He.none formed before or after.  So is Jesus a legitimate god or not? If so, then explain why you believe this.

Yes, you got it.

 

The watchtowers "translation" of John 1:1 clearly makes them polytheists.

 

They didnt translate anything, though. 

 

The used known ( to the watchtower ) SPIRITIST johannes greber's papers for this passage.