Why do Jehovahs witnesses belive in two Gods?

[Shiwiii]

My question comes from John 1:1. If Jesus is "a god", then He is another god. Thus creating two gods. Is Jesus a legitimate god or is He a false god?  The common answer is that satan is a God of this world, ok fine. Does that make satan a legitimate god? Isaiah 43:10 says that there is no God other than He.none formed before or after.  So is Jesus a legitimate god or not? If so, then explain why you believe this.

[Ann O'Maly]

Psalm 82:1, 6

God takes his place in the divine assembly;
In the middle of the gods he judges:
...

 “I have said, ‘You are gods,
All of you are sons of the Most High.
 

Is the psalmist talking about false gods here? Are the angelic 'gods' legitimate or not?

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Is the psalmist talking about false gods here? Are the angelic 'gods' legitimate or not?

It could be tempting to speculate on some sort of heavenly judicial scenario in the spirit world, incorporating scriptural glimpses such as Job 1;6; 2:2, and maybe ancient Jewish commentaries, alternative renderings of scripture (such as De.32:8), and much earlier writings about pantheons of angelic gods in an antediluvian or other setting.

For a number of reasons, I prefer a more "down to earth " understanding.

Brown-Driver-Briggs states that the word elohim used at Ps:82:1 can mean  rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.

Other Bible references such as Paul's words at 1 Cor 8:5-6 show that there are many viewed as "gods" on earth and the crowd's attribution to Herod at Acts 12:21-22 underlines that humans with power over others could be viewed as "mighty ones" or "gods" regardless of their deserving that description.

So the gods referred to in Psalm 8 appear to be humans with power of judging over other men (thus viewed as "mighty ones" or "gods"). From Moses onward, judges existed among God's people for good (1Ki.10:9) or bad (Mic. 4:11) depending on the historical  circumstances. As such, Psalm 8 indicates they would be called to account for any injustice in exercising that office by their Supreme Judge, Jehovah.

In the account recorded at John 10:31-39, Jesus quoted from Psalm 82:6 when rebutting the Jews' accusation of blasphemy for calling himself a "god",(their inference on the fact he had said he was God's son). He showed that as the scripture actually referred to humans rightly as gods, there was no crime in his reference to himself as Gods son.

[Evacuated]

9 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Psalm 8 indicates they would be called to account for any injustice

Psalm 82 of course!! Pardon me!

[Shiwiii]

17 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Psalm 82:1, 6

God takes his place in the divine assembly;
In the middle of the gods he judges:
...

 “I have said, ‘You are gods,
All of you are sons of the Most High.
 

Is the psalmist talking about false gods here? Are the angelic 'gods' legitimate or not?

The answer is in the very next verse.

 

"Nevertheless you will die like men, and fall like any one of the princes. "

So the psalmist does not consider them legitimate "gods".

14 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

So the gods referred to in Psalm 8 appear to be humans with power of judging over other men (thus viewed as "mighty ones" or "gods").

I quite agree with this statement, which makes the argument void in using Psalms 82 as a reference to other true gods.   

 

14 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

In the account recorded at John 10:31-39, Jesus quoted from Psalm 82:6 when rebutting the Jews' accusation of blasphemy for calling himself a "god",(their inference on the fact he had said he was God's son). He showed that as the scripture actually referred to humans rightly as gods, there was no crime in his reference to himself as Gods son.

Right, because it was not blasphemy. So now back to Isaiah 43:10, does this apply to those "gods" of Psalms 82? or is it on a different level? It has to be on a different level, otherwise it would be a contradiction on God's part.

"Before me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me."

So this must be applied to legitimate Gods, wouldn't you agree? 

[Donald Diamond]

16 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

It could be tempting to speculate on some sort of heavenly judicial scenario in the spirit world, incorporating scriptural glimpses such as Job 1;6; 2:2, and maybe ancient Jewish commentaries, alternative renderings of scripture (such as De.32:8), and much earlier writings about pantheons of angelic gods in an antediluvian or other setting.

For a number of reasons, I prefer a more "down to earth " understanding.

Brown-Driver-Briggs states that the word elohim used at Ps:82:1 can mean  rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.

Other Bible references such as Paul's words at 1 Cor 8:5-6 show that there are many viewed as "gods" on earth and the crowd's attribution to Herod at Acts 12:21-22 underlines that humans with power over others could be viewed as "mighty ones" or "gods" regardless of their deserving that description.

So the gods referred to in Psalm 8 appear to be humans with power of judging over other men (thus viewed as "mighty ones" or "gods"). From Moses onward, judges existed among God's people for good (1Ki.10:9) or bad (Mic. 4:11) depending on the historical  circumstances. As such, Psalm 8 indicates they would be called to account for any injustice in exercising that office by their Supreme Judge, Jehovah.

In the account recorded at John 10:31-39, Jesus quoted from Psalm 82:6 when rebutting the Jews' accusation of blasphemy for calling himself a "god",(their inference on the fact he had said he was God's son). He showed that as the scripture actually referred to humans rightly as gods, there was no crime in his reference to himself as Gods son.

I agree with you entirely.   These judges had the power of life and death over the people, and were acting in the place of God.  They could therefore be called "gods" as God's representatives (so they were neither false gods, nor the true God).    However, they were not acting justly and would die, just like all men do.

Jesus' quote of this passage in John 10 is a very clever refutation of the accusation that he was making himself God.  He is very emphatic about this:

John 10:35  If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—
 

D

[Shiwiii]

so is Jesus a true god or not? What does John 1:1 speak to you? 

[Donald Diamond]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

so is Jesus a true god or not? What does John 1:1 speak to you? 

Jesus is neither a true god nor a false god.   As Jesus explained from Psa 82, "god" is a term that can be used for those who represent Him.   Did not YHWH (Jehovah) make Moses god to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1 - there is no "as/like" in the original Hebrew)?  Was that a true god or a false god?

D

[Shiwiii]

6 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

Jesus is neither a true god nor a false god.   As Jesus explained from Psa 82, "god" is a term that can be used for those who represent Him.   Did not YHWH (Jehovah) make Moses god to Pharaoh (Exodus 7:1 - there is no "as/like" in the original Hebrew)?  Was that a true god or a false god?

D

I would call Moses a false god, a representative none the less, but not a god as described in Isaiah 43:10. 

would you say the same of Satan? Neither true or false? just a god like Moses?

[Donald Diamond]

12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I would call Moses a false god, a representative none the less, but not a god as described in Isaiah 43:10. 

would you say the same of Satan? Neither true or false? just a god like Moses?

You cannot seriously be suggesting that Moses was a false god.   Have you read in scripture what should be done with false gods and those who follow them?

Satan is not a representative of God.

Do you agree that in Psa 82, the judges who represented God are called gods?  Do you understand Jesus' argument in John 10 when he quotes this passage to refute the argument that he was making himself God?

D.

[Ann O'Maly]

On 4/26/2016 at 11:45 AM, Shiwiii said:

so is Jesus a true god or not?

The question sets up a fallacy of the excluded middle. That's why I quoted Ps. 82.

Here I'd like to acknowledge those who pointed out that 'gods' here refer to humans - you're right. I should have checked beyond my old, brief scribblings when looking for a quick reference to post. 

[Shiwiii]

7 hours ago, Donald Diamond said:

You cannot seriously be suggesting that Moses was a false god.   Have you read in scripture what should be done with false gods and those who follow them?

Satan is not a representative of God.

Do you agree that in Psa 82, the judges who represented God are called gods?  Do you understand Jesus' argument in John 10 when he quotes this passage to refute the argument that he was making himself God?

D.

I'm saying that Moses was not a god, not in the sense of Isiah 43:10. 

Is Satan a god? That is the question. I didn't say he was a representative of God.

 

I do agree that in Psalm 82 the term "gods"  is used of men, and it also shows their inability to be god as described to us by Isiah 43:10. Absolutely Jesus used this to show them that they themselves (men) were called gods, however the argument was not whether or not Jesus was a god like they had been called, but rather that it was not blasphemy when He said He was Gods Son. The statement of being God's Son, does invoke the thought within the Jews that He was making himself out to be God. This is demonstrated by the action they were going to carry out. Jesus wasn't trying to get them on a technicality, but instead was using scripture to support His claim. Others had been called "sons of God", all of Israel for that matter, but that wasn't the same or they wouldn't have wanted to stone Jesus. They would have accepted it just on the fact that Jesus was a Jews also, so His claim would be along the lines of their own. So in the refutation at John 10, Jesus was not claiming to be a man just as all the rest of the Israelite's who had been called gods, but rather to prove His statement true. Jesus being directly from the Father, this was something they could not handle because it would make Jesus God as well. 

 

So then what kind of god is Jesus in John 1:1? A god like Moses?

Is He on par with Satan as far as gods go?