I Almost Wish That There Was More Public Kickback From WT Regarding CSA Charges

[Witness]

43 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I lose interest quickly when thinking becomes so black and white that they focus ONLY on the extremes and don't even think about what is generally going on.

Like going to a huge banquet/picnic where hundreds of items of great food are available to choose from, but because someone brought some tainted potato salad, they go around screaming that everything has been poisoned.

It all goes back to..."A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."  Matt 7:18

Jesus' thinking on this matter was purely black and white.  

 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits."

 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit." 

 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

Matt 7:15-20

[JW Insider]

13 minutes ago, Witness said:

"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."  Matt 7:18

Jesus is that source of truth, and does not produce bad fruit. We as humans must try to imitate Jesus and follow to the best of our ability. But even a piece of good fruit has flaws when you look at it too closely.

You appear to be interpreting this statement as if it is saying:

(Matthew 5:48) . . .You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

But this is mitigated by another statement from the same Sermon on the Mount:

(Matthew 6:14-15) . . 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 whereas if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If everyone must be perfect, and can never produce bad fruit, then what's the point of asking for forgiveness of our trespasses?

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Secular law also have same problematic. Life making new challenges and need for new details in law making production of various paragraphs. 
JW's are blessed in all this confusion. When one law don't have clear guideline about something, perhaps another one has ..... and vice versa.

The admin should come up with a new emoji/response that means you have said some very interesting thought-provoking things, and some of them are obviously right, but that there's enough I disagree with that I don't want to give it a full up-vote.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

4J laughs at it, to be sure,

There are some people whose heads would be laughing at you if the wheelbarrow was carting them off from the guillotine.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm thinking. I hope you are planning to put it together into a very accessible format to refer to again (like a book/blog/etc).

I have made my opening remark the ‘pinned’ post on my blog, and it will in time include links elsewhere. Some posts made here have not yet appeared on my site, and by the time they do I will have refined them a little. There may someday be a TrueTom vs the Apostates—Round 2!’ But I have a few other irons in the fire as well, and my wife still thinks I should mow the lawn or snowblower the drive from time to time—strange woman.

[Srecko Sostar]

5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus is that source of truth, and does not produce bad fruit. We as humans must try to imitate Jesus and follow to the best of our ability. But even a piece of good fruit has flaws when you look at it too closely.

You appear to be interpreting this statement as if it is saying:

(Matthew 5:48) . . .You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

But this is mitigated by another statement from the same Sermon on the Mount:

(Matthew 6:14-15) . . 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 whereas if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If everyone must be perfect, and can never produce bad fruit, then what's the point of asking for forgiveness of of our trespasses?

Human life is made of, at least, two aspects (this is limited view, of course): What we want to do and what we doing. 

About producing: spiritual food  (fruit). If Jesus is Source of truthful spiritual food  that is made, presented and spread TODAY through humans as tools, as agents, as means of transmission, then it would be normal to believe how such "fruit" is (have to be) without blame.

About producing: physical and verbal deeds (fruit). If People are imperfect free will individuals who can't do nothing without errors, than we need to give and ask for forgiveness. 

But because nothing is Black and White and nothing about Organized Religion is clear, we shall never have (i am sort of pesimist) nothing that is flawless. 

[Srecko Sostar]

18 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The admin should come up with a new emoji/response that means you have said some very interesting thought-provoking things, and some of them are obviously right, but that there's enough I disagree with that I don't want to give it a full up-vote.

I am fully agree how only this 7 emoji can't present our reactions on something :))

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider  quote " 4J laughs at it, to be sure, .."  

I laugh at dear old Elder Tom because he is deliberately using thousands of words to say what could be said in two sentences.  He is trying to blind people with words. Words that have no real meaning. 

Tom's words :  " detractors, The anti-JW activists are only bellyaching, Opposers will always have limits to their efforts because they have nothing to replace what they would take away, "

Why is Elder Tom so worried that he has to go on so much ? 

It's not as if he is being constructive. 

And you JW I, say "You have several recent posts here that would fit right in to the recent topic that Anna started in the closed club.."

Well now we know what goes on in the 'closed club' then. So funny JWI.  

Can you not see why I laugh ? 

Dear Elder Tom.

If i had the power and authority and the desire, and if the JW Org were the true servant of God

I would replace the CSA  in JW Org, with Child care and love.  To look after widows and orphans as per scripture

I would replace the GB with true Anointed Ones that would receive true guidance through Holy spirit. 

I would replace the wicked elders with true servants of God.

I would replace the lies taught in JW Org with truth and true guidance. 

I would build a true united people to bring glory to Almighty God and to prepare those ones for the coming trials that of course will come before the Judgement. 

Now, Jesus Christ has the power and authority to do those things. But does he have the desire to do those things in JW Org ? If Armageddon is 'so close' why is JW Org in such a mess ?

Is Jesus holding back for some reason ?  Is Holy Spirit being blocked because of the sins of the GB and others of 'high rank' in JW Org ?

But elder tom will call this belly aching, because he hates to face the truth about the poor poor Org. 

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Well now we know what goes on in the 'closed club' then. So funny JWI.  

So far, very little has gone on in that club. There were a few discussions of what people liked or didn't like about recent and/or upcoming Watchtower studies. It was probably considered better to discuss such things without every topic being turned into: "Yes that's true but you also have a CSA problem." You might not believe it, but we had a guy here once who could take any topic, even one about how you might pronounce YHWH, and would still find a way to weave in a dig about CSA.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It was probably considered better to discuss such things without every topic being turned into: "Yes that's true but you also have a CSA problem." 

Given my newfound resolution, I am exploring whether I feel that there any value whatsoever in starting threads on this open JW forum. I am not sure that there is. The ones who object are not doing any more than they have done from Day one, but just rubber-stamping what they have said many times in the past—they get me worked up to no purpose. I do like to keep my finger on the pulse of what the opponents are up to, and I have benefited in some cases by seeing where they are coming from—still there are many many ways of keeping up to date.

I mean, when you repeatedly see such remarks as “dear old Elder Tom because he is deliberately using thousands of words to say what could be said in two sentences,” I have to bite my tongue every time so as not to scream, “the problem is that you are too stupid to read more than two sentences!” Or as when he commends Witness, though saying some of her thoughts were “over his head,” not to hit back with “anything is over your head!” Who needs the aggravation?

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

What puzzles me TTH is, you want people to show you their false representation of facts, yet ... you have never submitted the following from the Watchtower, why is that?...”In rare instances, one Christian might commit a serious crime against another—such as rape, assault, murder,

It’s a valid point. Thank you for making it. In fact, it is less than two sentences. It is just one. Maybe 4jah is on to something, after all, when he calls me a windbag.

In my ‘defense,’ if that statement is in the Shepherd the Flock book not meant for general distribution, then I would not quote from it even if I had read it. It is a little silly, I know, to avoid what others have already put out there, and I don’t criticize anyone doing it with good motive. But I am still old fashioned that way and inclined to respect ‘confidential talk.’

I’m not a stickler in that regard. There is an example or two of the contrary in ‘Dear Mr. Putin’ But in general I stay away from what has not been made public. For all I carry on about wishing there was more access to what is critical, I am sparing in how much I go there myself. I don’t chow down on the stuff. For the most part, I agree with the expression, “You are what you eat.”

[Witness]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus is that source of truth, and does not produce bad fruit. We as humans must try to imitate Jesus and follow to the best of our ability. But even a piece of good fruit has flaws when you look at it too closely.

You appear to be interpreting this statement as if it is saying:

(Matthew 5:48) . . .You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

But this is mitigated by another statement from the same Sermon on the Mount:

(Matthew 6:14-15) . . 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 whereas if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If everyone must be perfect, and can never produce bad fruit, then what's the point of asking for forgiveness of our trespasses?

Before Matt 5:48 –

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ ⁴⁴But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, ⁴⁵ that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. ⁴⁶ For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? ⁴⁷ And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? ⁴⁸ Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

 

What makes an individual “perfect” according to these scriptures?  Love, which fulfills the law.  Can you see the WT leaders practicing anything that Jesus stated in these scriptures?  JWs are taught to love their own.   If anyone is ousted, they are considered “dead”. John 16:2; Rev 13:15 Those who leave the organization are mostly wiped out of the brain of their loved ones.  Do the leaders of the WT love their brothers and sisters in Christ if these ones approach their leaders about their flaws in understanding scriptures…if they suggest that their doctrine is wrong?   What happened to Ray Franz?  Is the label of “apostate”, called loving one’s neighbor as yourself?  Ray Franz did not sin; yet the proverbial sword came down upon him, and he was labeled as “dead”. 

“Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.”  1 John 3:12

The only example JWs have for the production of “fruit”, is that of their leaders who claim to be anointed. The scriptures in Matt 7 pertain to teachings.  The anointed are “inspired” by Holy Spirit – it is “poured” into one’s heart.  Rom 5:5  If that gift is not used, one can lose it.  Matt 25:19-30 The reason the GB admit they are not inspired, is because the leaders of the organization made judgment calls not based on Holy Spirit’s guidance, but on their own speculation – their own wisdom, and not that of Christ. They have to hide the fact somehow, so the falsehood is created that anointed are not inspired.  The truth is, they have lost Holy Spirit that was once in their heart.  1 Pet 2:8; 2 Pet 3:17; 1 John 2:19; Rev 8:10,11

They are your only examples of receiving any “fruit” that they claim is derived from Christ.  Matt 24:24

Our own assumptions, actions, attitudes can lead to sin.  Paul and Barnabas had an argument over Mark.  Yet, both men spoke the truth of Christ. Obviously, love won out because Mark was mentioned by Paul later on.  Refinement from sin takes time. Learning obedience to the Father and Jesus doesn’t happen overnight.  Even Jesus was “perfected” through his endurance while on the earth.  Not that he sinned, but that he “learned obedience”:

“Although he was the Son, he learned obedience from what he suffered. 9 After he was perfected, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him”  Heb 5:8,9

“he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death -- even to death on a cross.”  Phil 2:8

Two things appear to bring about perfection.  Loving one another, and obeying God’s laws fulfilled in Christ.  They are tied together.  Mark 12:28-31

"I sanctify myself for them, so that they also may be sanctified by the truth.”  John 17:19

“Sanctify” - to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate

^“All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.¹⁸ We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 1 John 5:17,18

Are the WT leaders “sanctified/purified by the truth” through their obedience to Christ’s direction?  Not if they teach falsehoods and excuse them as minor bumps on the historical road of the WT’s existence! (G. Jackson’s latest with the barking dog)  Not if they refuse to budge on falsehoods set in place.    

Even though Jesus had to learn obedience to the Father, he still taught only truth from God while on earth. He is our pattern to follow.   (Col 2:5; 2 Tim 1:7; Titus 1:8; Rev 3:19) The Holy Spirit is the source of truth. John 16:3  Preaching falsehoods is evidence of an anointed one segregated from the vine of Christ.  No one can claim to be a “faithful slave” of Christ, if they preach an untruth!

“Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. ⁶ If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. ⁷ If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. ⁸ This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.”  John 15:4-8

Once again, this “fruit” is speaking about truth from God.  A faithful one in Christ will produce truth sourced in Holy Spirit which flows from the vine, to the branches – to the heart. 

A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.  Luke 6:45

It is important to remember that the anointed have inscribed upon their hearts, the laws of God; again, fulfilled in love.  Heb 8:10; Rom 13:8; Gal 5:14   Additional rules, laws, regulations, staunch adherence to the “two witness rule”, are not the workings of the Holy Spirit, but purely the admonitions made by men.  The organization carries around two bibles – one, barely used but is “inspired” by God, and one totally leaned upon, and is inspired by the hearts and minds of men.   

"They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.'"  Matt 15:9

"These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings."  Col 2:22

The two "bibles" combined, will not work for the common good, as is evident in the court system today.  

 

 

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

So far, very little has gone on in that club. There were a few discussions of what people liked or didn't like about recent and/or upcoming Watchtower studies. It was probably considered better to discuss such things without every topic being turned into: "Yes that's true but you also have a CSA problem." You might not believe it, but we had a guy here once who could take any topic, even one about how you might pronounce YHWH, and would still find a way to weave in a dig about CSA.

The point is though @JW Insider that people in the JW Org, general congregants that is, don't know much about CSA in JW Org. Because if they did I'm sure they would find Watchtower studies and Pubic Talks quite funny.... Those that do know, including JWs on here, don't want reminding of it. I suppose the closed club is a nice quiet place where you can all convince each other how wonderful JW Org is and what a great job the GB are doing. Enjoy it.