Conscience individual and collective

[JW Insider]

6 minutes ago, xero said:

For that matter so do CO's and DO's.

D.O.'s? How long has it been since you were a JW?

[xero]

3 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

BUT, you have just mentioned that all so called Christian religions use this same idea.  So are you telling Catholics to to be obedient to the Pope ? How would you JWs get new recruits if everyone was obedient to the ones taking the lead in their religions ?  No one would listen to you because they would be being obedient to their vicar or priest etc.. .  

However, firstly the scriptures are for the Anointed ones, secondly the scriptures do not apply to false religions. Otherwise that scripture would take away a person's own conscience. 

"However, firstly the scriptures are for the Anointed ones, secondly the scriptures do not apply to false religions. Otherwise that scripture would take away a person's own conscience. "

Prove this by scripture. Otherwise you should really stop while you're ahead, you keep digging that hole you're in you'll never get out.

[xero]

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

D.O.'s? How long has it been since you were a JW?

I know they don't exist any more, but they did.

PS. You want I should show you my green bible and list of "Back Calls"?

Shibboleths are shibboleths.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

It isn't a 'collective conscience', it is dictatorship by your GB down through the ranks. 

That was made very clear in the misuse of the Romans scripture years ago. 

What this simply means is that JWs have found their comfort zone. They are happy because everyone in that 'zone' tells the same lies and is dishonest in the same ways. And they are all happy to serve the GB and the Org. It is similar to Catholics having their own comfort zone and all believeing their same lies.  It actually sends the conscience to sleep. That must surely have been proven by the amount of Child Sexual Abuse allowed to happen in the JW Org Earthwide. 

 

You are able to come up with some logical reasoning, but then you let go of reason and start assuming things that aren't true. JW do not worship the org. because all know that worship belongs to God only.

You pull out the Roman scripture (subjection to superior authorities) as proof that the org. is bad. You expect the annointed never to draw the wrong conclusion. You expect them to be either perfect, and sinless or led by holy spirit to the point where they do not have their own thoughts but are more like robots. 

Then you pull out the CSA as proof that the org. is bad, again insinuating that every JW should be perfect and without sin. 

Well I hate to break it to you again but that's not what the Bible says about Christians. Time and time again examples of faithful men and women who made mistakes were pointed out to you, but you ignore it...and then of course there are some that were bad and had to be thrown out.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

12 hours ago, Anna said:

You are able to come up with some logical reasoning, but then you let go of reason and start assuming things that aren't true. JW do not worship the org. because all know that worship belongs to God only.

JWs might know that worship belongs to God but, 1. the GB call themselves the F&DS and 2. the GB say that God and Christ trust the GB. Hence JWs serve the GB.  Xero made some important comment about an 'authority' demanding that it's followers believed even things not understood. Then Xero extended that by saying that those people that were forced to believe, had to tell those things not understood, to other people.  Basically, doing the ministry or cart work. 

Here in the UK we have (or did pre-lockdown) car boot sales, where people sell their own belongings. At these events JWs have a table displaying literature. NO bibles, just literature. Those JWs are not offering the word of God, they are offering the words of Men. In that way those JWs are worshipping the GB and the Org, and so are people on the door to door work that give out magazines or tracks, giving men's words not God's word. 

12 hours ago, Anna said:

You pull out the Roman scripture (subjection to superior authorities) as proof that the org. is bad. You expect the annointed never to draw the wrong conclusion. You expect them to be either perfect, and sinless or led by holy spirit to the point where they do not have their own thoughts but are more like robots. 

The misuse of the Romans scripture WAS bad. Russell had it right in earlier days. So that 'new light' was obviously not guided by Holy Spirit.  The Anointed, Quote " You expect them to be either perfect, " So you argue with God if you wish.

Matthew 5 : 48

You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Quote or led by holy spirit ...  John 16 :7

 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you.

John 14 : 16

And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, ¹⁷  the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it.

But the ones you consider to be the Anointed, your GB, do not have this 'spirit of the truth'. 

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Then you pull out the CSA as proof that the org. is bad, again insinuating that every JW should be perfect and without sin. 

The CSA in such a large quantity and in so many countries in the JW Org, does prove that wickedness has developed and grown within the JW Org.  And the GB withholding the USA 25 + year database of Pedophile accusations proves wickedness. Add to this that the Charity Commission here in the UK are still saying that the UK branch of the JW org is still deliberately blocking progress in the CSA investigation.

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Well I hate to break it to you again but that's not what the Bible says about Christians. Time and time again examples of faithful men and women who made mistakes were pointed out to you, but you ignore it...

Once agin if you wish to argue with God that is your chioce. And the big difference is between making mistakes and, deliberately being dishonest. 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

They developed a conscience after Satan exposed it to them, That's why it's on our DNA.

Don't understand.

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

you are confusing, between conscience and morals and standards.

How is conscience formed? How is morality formed? How is the standard formed?

How people changing conscience, moral and standard?

...and other things in connection with these three.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Xero made some important comment about an 'authority' demanding that it's followers believed even things not understood. Then Xero extended that by saying that those people that were forced to believe, had to tell those things not understood, to other people.  Basically, doing the ministry or cart work. 

Xero:  I'm trying to find a way to formulate, by way of illustration or otherwise (the shorter the explanation the better), the dividing line between conscience and scriptural responsibility and actively being told by authority that some non-obvious thing is true and that one must believe the non-obvious thing is true and teach someone else in the same manner that this non-obvious thing is true.

dividing line between conscience and scriptural responsibility

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Once again, you are confusing, between conscience and morals and standards.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves - Rom 2 14

Gentiles don't have "Law", don't have "Knowledge", don't have WTJWorg "moral and standard".....but have "Natural driving forces" to act in a way as God accepts. 

[Srecko Sostar]

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

DEVELOPMENT!! Your parents teach you morals and standards. The Bible teaches you Christian ethics. You decide what your conscience is, no one else

 

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves - Rom 2 14

Gentile parents teach their gentile children about own morals and standards, with or without "Christian" ethics. And they, parents and children, decide in mutual interactions what sort of conscience they will have and grow. How do you explain, where is the place/position and influence of "nature" spoken in Romans 2:14 in that process? And how do you explain that Romans 2:14 speaking in favour, very positive about them, gentile people, in comparison to Roman congregation to which Paul directed those chapters?  

Verse 15 continue with:

They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

Which and whose requirements was written on their hearts? When and how? Because their parents was "gentile" distanced(??) from "Christian" moral, standards and ethics.

I agree with some of your thoughts how there are unknown and invisible processes around all this. 

[JW Insider]

17 hours ago, César Chávez said:

21 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I forgive all your insults and laugh at them too.

Oh! You're the better person. LOL! I think not. 😁

Somehow this reminds me of the old riddle:

There are 2 doors: life and death. There are 2 trolls: a lying one and a truth telling one. You have to get through the right door by asking both trolls the same question. (Only one question.)

[Anna]

22 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

There are 2 doors: life and death. There are 2 trolls: a lying one and a truth telling one. You have to get through the right door by asking both trolls the same question. (Only one question.)

You're going to have me racking my brain all day now!

[JW Insider]

5 minutes ago, Anna said:

You're going to have me racking my brain all day now!

LOL. That's what happened to me when I first heard this one as a kid and there was no Internet. These days I would rack my brain for only an hour at most and then just Google "two trolls" for the answer.

[Anna]

3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

LOL. That's what happened to me when I first heard this one as a kid and there was no Internet. These days I would rack my brain for only an hour at most and then just Google the answer.

Those were exactly my thoughts! 😂

I would obviously die without Google!

P.s. I'm thinking it's one of these very obvious things that you can't get if you think too hard. And then when you hear the answer you have a face palm moment.