Trying to nail down 612 BCE as the date of Nineveh's destruction

[xero]

17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

These are taken from Ann O'maly's fact-check against a claim by someone who tried a slightly different method than Furuli's interpretations. This is why a few of the other readings were included below. The 13 referred to in the Watchtower are matched to Furuli's original list.

1. Line 1: Nisanu 1 = May 2, 588 BCE/ April 22, 568 BCE Moon visible behind Bull of Heaven (Taurus)

2. Line 3: Nisanu 9 = May 10, 588 BCE / April 30, 568 BCE Beginning of the night, Moon 1 cubit in front of β Virginis

x. Line 4: Nisanu 14 = May 16, 588 BCE / May 6, 568 BCE Sunrise to moonset 4°

3. Line 8: Ayyaru 1 = June 1, 588 BCE / May 22, 568 BCE Moon crescent ‘thick,’ visible ‘while the sun stood there’ … … 4 cubits below β Geminorum ...Moonrise to sunrise, 23°, not observed

x. Line 11: Ayyaru 26 = June 27, 588 BCE / June 17, 568 BCE Moonrise to sunrise, 23°, not observed

4. Line 12: Simanu 1 = June 30, 588 BCE / June 20, 568 BCE Moon visible behind Cancer, ‘thick’ crescent …… Sunset to moonset 20°

5. Line 14: Simanu 5 = July 4, 588 BCE / June 24, 568 BCE Beginning of the night, Moon passed east 1 cubit β Virginis

6. Line 15: Simanu 8 = July 7, 588 BCE / June 27, 568 BCE First part of night, Moon 2½ cubits below β Librae

7. Line 16: Simanu 10 = July 9, 588 BCE / June 29, 568 BCE First part of the night, Moon balanced 3½ cubits above α Scorpii

x. Line 17: Simanu 15 = July 15, 588 BCE / July 5, 568 BCE Sunrise to moonset: 7°30', ‘omitted’ lunar eclipse

reverse:

8. Line 5’: Šabatu 1 = February 22, 587 BCE / February 12, 567 BCE Moon visible in the Swallow (southern Pisces) …… Sunset to moonset: 14°30'

9. Line 6’: Šabatu 6 = Feb. 27, [587 BCE / February 17, 567 BCE] First part of the night, Moon surrounded by halo; Pleiades, the Bull of Heaven, and the Chariot [stood in it .... ]

10. Line 7’: Šabatu ? = March 4, 587 BCE / February 22, 567 BCE α Leonis balanced 1 cubit below Moon

x. Line 8’: Šabatu 13 or 14 = March 8 or 9, 587 BCE / February 25 or 26, 567 BCE Sunrise to moonset, 17° (text: 7), not watched

11. Line 12’: Addaru 1 = March 24, 587 BCE / March 14, 567 BCE Moon visible behind Aries ‘while the sun stood there’ … … measured sunset to moonset 25°

12. Line 13’: Addaru 2 = March 25, 587 BCE / March 15, 567 BCE First part of the night,41 Moon balanced 4 cubits below η Tauri (Alcyone)

x. Line 14’: Addaru 7 = March 30, 587 BCE/ March 20, 567 BCE Moon surrounded by halo. Praesepe and α Leonis [stood] in [it ....]

13. Line 16’: Addaru 12 = April 5, 587 BCE / March 26, 567 BCE Sunrise to moonset, 1°30’.

 

"One of the places where the lunar observations fit 588 B.C.E. even better than 568 B.C.E. is shown in the tablet reproduced on these pages. On line 3 of that tablet, we read that the moon was in a certain position on the “night of the 9th [of Nisanu].” However, the scholars who first dated the event to 568 B.C.E. (astronomical -567) acknowledged that in 568 B.C.E., the moon was in that position on “the 8th of Nisanu and not on the 9th.” To support dating the tablet to 568 B.C.E., they postulated that the scribe erroneously wrote “9” instead of “8.”²⁰ But the lunar position in line 3 finds an exact match on Nisanu 9 of 588 B.C.E.<sup>21"

For my notes</sup>

[George88]

Canon of Lunar Eclipses from:

[George88]

@xero

You should consider investigating this individual, Pekka Mansikka. It appears that someone within the closed club had a positive experience with him, despite having reservations about his supposed recommendations. What makes Mansikka intriguing is his unique perspective on chronology. That person in the closed club might even have several of his books if he claims to be a researcher in good faith.

Problems_of_Neo_Babylonian_period

"Related to this are Babylonian business documents found during the reigns of Nebuchadnezzar II and his son Amel-Marduk. Based on them, you could imagine that they ruled maybe even half a year at the same time. Another grievance is related to Amel-Marduk's successor, Neriglissar. Based on the dates of related business documents, Amel-Marduk and Neriglissar ruled for at least 7 months at the same time.

However, such concurrences in their reigns are not considered likely. Scholars have tried to solve this problem by hypothesizing that people on the other side of the Babylonian Empire were unaware that the king had changed. However, it seems like a very lame assessment that does not sufficiently reflect on the ancient local conditions of how important news in the kingdom was transmitted from one place to another.

That is why a new problem arises here: was the clay tablet VAT 4956 wrong when it said that it was "37. government year." If there is an error, what exactly could it be? The matter is also slightly complicated by another matter, which many researchers do not take very seriously.

The history of Neo-Babylonia is also told somewhat in the Bible. Related mentions are in the Bible's book of Daniel. There its 2nd chapter begins as follows: "In the second year of the reign of King Nebuchadnezzar." Among researchers, it is generally considered a historical fact that the Jews were exiled to Babylon."

[xero]

@George88Well for the longest time they thought the Bible was wrong about Belshazzar being the last King of Babylon, so it wouldn't surprise me if the so-called "authorities" are wrong about other things.

[JW Insider]

14 hours ago, xero said:

"One of the places where the lunar observations fit 588 B.C.E. even better than 568 B.C.E. is shown in the tablet reproduced on these pages. On line 3 of that tablet, we read that the moon was in a certain position on the “night of the 9th [of Nisanu].” However, the scholars who first dated the event to 568 B.C.E. (astronomical -567) acknowledged that in 568 B.C.E., the moon was in that position on “the 8th of Nisanu and not on the 9th.” To support dating the tablet to 568 B.C.E., they postulated that the scribe erroneously wrote “9” instead of “8.”²⁰ But the lunar position in line 3 finds an exact match on Nisanu 9 of 588 B.C.E.^21"

From the time the tablet was discovered this error has been known and discussed for 100 years now. It was considered to be one of at least two copyist's errors that don't work for the conventional 568 date although the vast majority of other readings work perfectly well for the 568 date. Only a very few of the readings also work for other years.

When a copyists mistake is made, there is always a good possibility that the mistaken numbers might work for another year, just as certain positions of the moon will be very nearly repeated year after year. (Meaning the same position relative to the "background" stars which stay in the same place, but not relative to the planets which may not come into that same position again for a hundred years or more.)

So, it's true that this error might coincidentally fit another year, but 588 is not one of those years. For one thing Furuli had to fake the month, shift the calendar, and rename the month Ayyaru and pretend it was Nisanu. Without evidence, Furuli had to pretend that the Babylonians made their largest known leap year mistake ever! -- the extent of which had never happened before, and would never happen again, in all known Neo-Babylonian history. I can explain evidence against it in another post if you like. If Furuli hadn't faked the month, he couldn't claim anything for this year 588. 

But then he also found that he had to fake, not only the month, but also the day. He started the new Spring month, Nisanu (our March/April) in May for this particular year, which is unprecedented. But he also then claims that the first day of Nisanu corresponds with May 2nd. But for a new month to start then, the new moon would have to be visible. It's hard enough to see a new moon that is only half a day old, most sightings take place when the moon is at about 1.5 to 2 days old. That's because it's the sighting at sunset when the sliver of a new moon is so hard to see. Here's why it can't be seen on May 2nd: see first video.

The moon is the blinking thing if it shows up at all just to the left of the sun. It also sets at almost the exact time as the sun. 

But the next video shows it on May 3rd which would have been the actual start of the new month. But not the month Nisanu as required. It would actually Ayyaru the 1st, 588 BCE: see second video.

Neugebauer and others have done experiments and measurements on the first sightings of the new moon, and you can do them yourself by going outside and looking at the beginning of every lunar month. It's based on the actual "waxed" age of the moon and how close it is to the sun. Especially if you live in a dry desert environment you can check for yourself under the very best conditions and see that the formula works well. Also, of course, the dozens of eclipse examples in the tablets tell us the day it was seen, and therefore counting back we can double-check the conditions available on the 1st of each of those months. 

 

 

sundown-may-2-587A.mp4

sundown-may-3-587A.mp4

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, George88 said:

Canon of Lunar Eclipses from:

@xero No rush, but when you get a chance, you should look into these eclipses of the type that George provided above. Not those ones in particular since they are the wrong ones for VAT 4956, but check out the ones right after that.

You probably know that you can calculate lunar and solar eclipses in Stellarium with the icon and when you select the eclipse from the list, you can have Stellarium "watch" the eclipse with the sky, place, direction, and time already set for you:

When you compare the LBAT eclipse to VAT 4956 you will have yet another reason to see why 588 is impossible, and 568 BCE is the best fit.

[BTK59]

5 hours ago, George88 said:

Canon of Lunar Eclipses from:

I have noticed that the sequence is inconsistent with 568 BC, unless we consider 586 BC, which would undermine the assertion of 587 BC. Aside from that important detail, we would need to consider 569 BC instead of 568 BC and in certain circumstances, 570 BC.

Hence, the most suitable choice would be 588 BC instead of the problematic 568 BC.

[Pudgy]

Despite my initial resolve not to be interested in Babylonian Astronomy, clay tablets, and conflicting dates circa 500bce to 600 bce, I find myself fascinated that You Guys find it of sufficient interest to pour over it in such detail. Perhaps there is something here that I am missing.

A rough analogy, I suppose would be like Quantum Physics, which I find fascinating, but unknowable, and can only be guessed at by trying to visualize what an esoteric equation is really representing in reality. Also far beyond my ability to comprehend, but at least I can see a practical use for quantum studies. 

Nowadays you need a good understanding of Quantum  Physics to understand Astronomy, or solid state electronics, or even how light behaves. This has PRACTICAL applications, such as Smart Phones, GPS, FTL communications, etc. We use this each and every day in contemporary society.

The people back in Babylonian times have been dead for 2600 and more years, and what they wrote in clay mud with sticks is not relevant anymore.

I can see enjoying knowing, so there is that, but if the subtext of all of this research is to be able to prove that the Great Tribulation, and Armageddon, and God’s Kingdom established has already occurred … it’s a complete waste of time.

You can stand in the street and look around and see those things have not yet happened.

You know, Jonah was super ticked off that he did all that work, hardship and danger, and God changed his mind about Nineveh.

At least he didn’t try to convince people they had been destroyed invisibly.

 

[xero]

Then there's this guy.
https://blog.naver.com/gjinzzang/220599019521
 

You have to use chrome and translate from Korean to English.
 

It looks like he's plotted the 13 and has screen shots and observations.

[George88]

@Pudgy Then you should be interested in people like B. L. van der Waerden whose research was mentioned in Babylonian Astronomy. II. The Thirty-Six Stars -- B. L. van der Waerden -- Journal of Near Eastern Studies. As a mathematician, he has written numerous articles based on his observations.

The Date of Invention of Babylonian Planetary Theory -- B. L. van der Waerden

[George88]

Like I said @xero The date 588 BC is valid, despite opinions to the contrary.

[George88]

The question for star enthusiasts is, how do you measure a cubit with modern software since it appears that's how VAT 4956 was measured?

 

B. L. van der Waerden - History of the Zodiac-Archiv für Orientforschung (1952)

Was the use of only the "naked eye" by Babylonian astronomers sufficient, or did they devise some sort of reflector or viewer to enhance their star-gazing abilities? Interestingly, the answer seems to be yes. But how exactly did they integrate these advancements into their calculations and observations?