Trying to nail down 612 BCE as the date of Nineveh's destruction

[Pudgy]

As I mentioned before, the fact that many here find the subject interesting… is what I find interesting … not the subject itself. 

I am more interested in things like the physics at the event horizon of a massive black hole.

I have figured out what”dark matter” is in the same way Einstein ran thought experiments that gave him correct conclusions in 1905 he had to wait until 1919 to prove.

 

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, Pudgy said:

I can see enjoying knowing, so there is that, but if the subtext of all of this research is to be able to prove that the Great Tribulation, and Armageddon, and God’s Kingdom established has already occurred … it’s a complete waste of time.

You keep implying that the 1914 doctrine is there to prove that the GT, Big A had begun then, and God's Kingdom has already been "established" -- that the doctrine claims all this has already occurred. 

Originally, the doctrine was there to prove that 1914 was part of Armageddon and the start of the Great Tribulation. But that part was dropped many years ago.

<bloviation> ** begins

However, I'll give you the part of about God's Kingdom:

*** w22 July p. 3 The Kingdom Is in Place! ***
. . . a prophecy that helps us discern when the Kingdom was established, . . . Read Daniel 4:10-17. The “seven times” represent a period of 2,520 years. That time period began in 607 B.C.E. when the Babylonians removed the last king from Jehovah’s throne in Jerusalem. It ended in 1914 C.E. when Jehovah enthroned Jesus—“the one who has the legal right”—as King of God’s Kingdom.—Ezek. 21:25-27.

Even here, the Watchtower plays with some nuanced semantics between the expression "established" and "fully established." There is even a sense given that the old Russellites were wrong for believing that the kingdom would be "fully established' in 1914, although it's a bit ambiguous as to whether they were right or not:

*** w84 4/15 p. 3 1914—A Focal Point ***
The March 1880 issue of Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence described two events of earthshaking importance that were looked forward to as due to happen in 1914: “‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then.” Hence, many Bible Students expected God’s Kingdom to be fully established in that year.

*** w84 12/1 p. 16 par. 7 Keep Ready! ***
Thus, although he would be ‘present’ and his Kingdom would already have been established, both he and his Kingdom would still have to “come” 
 

 Up until about 1975, the Watchtower always made the bold claim that the Kingdom had already been "fully established." It was about then, that the phrase was only used ambiguously, which I remember once caused a minor problem in the translation departments when they were translating a booklet. I think it was called "One World, One Government Under God's Kingdom," or something like that. The publications started saying "established" in 1914 but only "fully established" when the new heavens and new earth were here, and that became the explanation for the "Lord's prayer" question that came up fairly often: "Should we still pray for God's kingdom to come since it came in 1914?" 

That issue was sort of resolved in the awkward wording of a new song that came out in 2014:

*** sjj song 22 The Kingdom Is in Place—Let It Come! ***
The Kingdom Is in Place—Let It Come!

BTW, I couldn't find the wording of that particular 1975 booklet in the Watchtower Library, but I found something quite similar which shows the kind of verb tense ambiguity they were going for. It's similar to the 1984 quote above:

*** w70 10/15 p. 629 par. 17 The Kingdom of Salvation Available Today ***
Former kings, emperors, presidents, governors and dictators on being resurrected may not expect to take over automatically and resume ruling over their onetime subjects or fellow citizens. The old system of things under the Satanic “god of this system of things” is no longer in operation. God’s new system of things under his Messianic kingdom of the heavens is fully established over all the earth. Of necessity, it will have organization of all those on earth . . . 

Note that it looks like (1970) the Watchtower was still saying it was already "fully established" but it's couched in a discussion of the near future, because the previous sentence says: "The old system of things . . . is no longer in operation." 

In previous decades, it was just claimed outright that it was already "fully established" in 1914:

*** w60 1/1 p. 29 par. 9 Part 29—“Your Will Be Done on Earth” ***
. . . In that year [1914] the kingdom of God was to be fully established in the heavens to see that His will should be done on earth. 

*** w51 10/1 p. 583 “Happy Are the Eyes That Behold” ***
Our eyes are far more blessed than even theirs, because we can see by the fulfillment of Bible prophecy that Jehovah’s royal government by his Christ is now fully established

</bloviation> ** ends

[xero]

@George88I understand that the Babylonians would extend their fist against the sky they were looking at, and a "cubit" was the width of the fist when viewed against the sky.

[BTK59]

This comment disregards the misguided claims made in the Watchtower articles, which have been influenced by apostate perspectives. It is important to note that these assertions are being made by an individual who claims to be a Jehovah's Witness but has unfortunately lost all credibility. This person should have been disfellowshipped not because they believe in the Watchtower Chronology, but rather due to their misrepresentation of scripture and God's word.

[Pudgy]

Yeah …. i lived through almost all of that, and remember it. 

However, if there was a “UNIVERSAL WAR FOR THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE UNIVERSE” …. which hasn’t happened yet, we would have seen some sparks …. or at the very least a 24 foot long golden arrow stuck deep into  a burning Abrams or Russian  T-1 Tank.

….. not so much as a surprised mouse, pissing on cotton.

[BTK59]

15 minutes ago, George88 said:

The question for star enthusiasts is, how do you measure a cubit with modern software since it appears that's how VAT 4956 was measured?

Certainly, newcomers often struggle to navigate from the past to the present. I prefer not to invest my time in individuals who contradict themselves and purposefully oppose me for no reason. They do not deserve your time. You have just witnessed utter nonsense by a certain meaningless individual.

[xero]

4 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

This comment disregards the misguided claims made in the Watchtower articles, which have been influenced by apostate perspectives. It is important to note that these assertions are being made by an individual who claims to be a Jehovah's Witness but has unfortunately lost all credibility. This person should have been disfellowshipped not because they believe in the Watchtower Chronology, but rather due to their misrepresentation of scripture and God's word.

I could give a rip about the character or motivations of anyone involved in questions of fact. I do find really, really annoying and unhelpful all this sort of meaningless chatter. It's like some stupid, stupid squirrels chasing each other around the trunk of a tree, dashing across the street and getting squished because they kept their eyes on the wrong nut.

[BTK59]

15 minutes ago, xero said:

I could give a rip about the character or motivations of anyone involved in questions of fact. I do find really, really annoying and unhelpful all this sort of meaningless chatter. It's like some stupid, stupid squirrels chasing each other around the trunk of a tree, dashing across the street and getting squished because they kept their eyes on the wrong nut.

I completely agree, especially when individuals manipulate Watchtower articles to suit their own agenda.

JWI: "Originally, the doctrine was there to prove that 1914 was part of Armageddon and the start of the Great Tribulation. But that part was dropped many years ago."

That's why the statement is clearly false, and it should not be upvoted by anyone that knows the truth about the intent of 1914 that was considered the "end of the gentile times" as recorded in scripture, and the start of Christ's reign in Heaven NOT on earth.

This way, those stupid squirrels chasing their tails around that tree looking to eat a rotten nut won't infect the other squirrels looking for good nuts.

[JW Insider]

12 minutes ago, xero said:

I could give a rip about the character or motivations of anyone involved in questions of fact. I do find really, really annoying and unhelpful all this sort of meaningless chatter.

I'd still prefer a separate topic about the astronomy evidence for the 13 lunar observations, for example, that would not allow any of the ad hominem stuff and desperate attempts to divert and distract. 

[Pudgy]

Anyone who can “downvote” straight   historical fact is like wearing a sandwich board boldly proclaiming their deliberate decision to be stupid ….. on both sides!

[JW Insider]

54 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

JWI: "Originally, the doctrine was there to prove that 1914 was part of Armageddon and the start of the Great Tribulation. But that part was dropped many years ago."

That's why the statement is clearly false,

*** w56 12/15 p. 755 par. 11 Telling the Good News from Day to Day ***
At the start of the great tribulation upon Satan’s organization in 1914 all such people felt merely the “beginning of pangs of distress,” 

*** w51 3/15 p. 164 Time Better than Money ***
When Christ was enthroned, in 1914, great tribulation was started against Satan and his wicked world organization. If it had then proceeded to completion, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of human flesh that tribulation was shortened or cut short, to allow a period of time for men to take in and give out knowledge of the established heavenly kingdom,

*** ws13 7/15 pp. 3-4 par. 3 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
In the past, we thought that the great tribulation began in 1914 when World War I started. We thought that Jehovah “cut short” those days in 1918 when the war ended so that the remaining anointed ones on earth could preach the good news to all nations. (Matthew 24:21, 22) After that preaching work would be completed, we expected that Satan’s world would be destroyed. So we thought that there were three parts to the great tribulation. It would begin in 1914, it would be interrupted in 1918, . . .

The "Armageddon" error was fixed many years before the "Great Tribulation" part was fixed.

54 minutes ago, BTK59 said:

that was considered the "end of the gentile times" as recorded in scripture, and the start of Christ's reign in Heaven

And for good measure, it should also be added that the 1914 doctrine was NOT to show the start of Christ's reign in Heaven. For about 40 years after the 1914 doctrine was "established," Christ's reign in Heaven had started in 1878. These ideas were repeated into the 1930's, and parts of it into the 1940's. 1878 was still considered a valid prophetic date during the first Tuesday night Book Studies I ever remember attending. We still studied "Let Your Name Be Sanctified" when I was 7 years old. All this was well after 1914. It was just a few years after the famous 1922 Cedar Point convention when the WTS dropped the first hints that the new date for Christ's reign might change to 1914.

 In 1878 God’s favor was withdrawn from the nominal systems. From that time on . . . . Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874? Do you believe that during that time he has conducted his harvest work? Do you believe that he has had during that time a faithful and wise servant through whom he directed his work and the feeding of the household of faith? Do you believe that the Lord is now in his temple, judging the nations of earth? Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign? Then back to the field, . . .  This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents. Therefore advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his kingdom. 

[xero]

13 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I'd still prefer a separate topic about the astronomy evidence for the 13 lunar observations, for example, that would not allow any of the ad hominem stuff and desperate attempts to divert and distract. 

When I see ad hominems I see a weakness. I like that. It lets me know when people have sh*tty arguments.