The Watchtower's 20-year adjustment to the standard Neo-Babylonian chronology

[Pudgy]

48 minutes ago, George88 said:

So, stick to what you propose as a 1914 denier, and prove HISTORY wrong!

[George88]

 @Pudgy Just a little higher, a little higher, you'll be able to hit the ESC key. You almost don't have it! LOL!

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, George88 said:

I invite you to take on the responsibility of disproving historical facts.

LOL.

Reminds me of the words of a recent commentator here:

6 hours ago, George88 said:

This seems like quite a demand.

 

1 hour ago, George88 said:

Remember, you need to disprove ideology such as this.

"that only a small proportion of the Jews either of this country or of the world at large sympathise with the Jews in Palestine who have adopted methods of violence in their struggle against the British Government. I happen to be one of those Jews who sympathises with the Jews in Palestine who are fighting for their national liberation. . . . I believe that the Jews of Palestine are as right to fight as were all the other peoples in history, ancient and modern—including the British in 1914 and 1939—who have found themselves faced with the alternatives of fighting or
submitting to national subjugation and destruction. . . . page 163

I think you just did a pretty good job yourself demolishing your own premise. Recall that your challenge was basically to disprove that the Jews were liberated from Palestine at the "End of the Gentile Times" in 1914:

2 hours ago, George88 said:

If you doubt that the "times of the Gentiles" concluded in 1914 when non-Jews (Gentiles) liberated the Jews from Palestine, then challenge the course of history itself.

So now you quote (without attribution, btw) British Jewry, Zionism, and the Jewish State, 1936-1956, by Stephan E. C. Wendehorst · 2012. By highlighting the words "British in 1914" you have apparently misread the sentence. He is not saying anything about the Jews fighting in Palestine relative to 1914. He is quoting a letter from Ivan Greenberg to the London Times dated May 23, 1947. In it he, Greenberg, is saying that the British fought against British subjugation and British national destruction in WW1 and WW2 (1914 and 1939), therefore the Jews should be given the same opportunity and support to continue fighting, even though much of their fighting was called Jewish "terrorism" in 1947 (and beyond, even up until today). Also, that Jewish persons in Britain still felt pressure from Britain not to side with the Jewish "terrorists" in Palestine for fear of reprisals in Britain. Look more carefully at the entire paragraph or the entire section starting with "Revisionist Zionism" starting on page 156) and you and other readers here will be able to see this:

In other words, the Jews, especially the British Jews, still felt under the subjugation of Britain and could not speak or act freely. There goes your supposed "freedom for the Jews in Palestine at the end of the Gentile Times in 1914." Jews in Palestine were still fighting against the British in 1947. In fact the entire rejuvenation for Zionism was the extreme subjugation of Jews by European nations, especially Germany, over the previous recent years since 1939. This entire book gives details on a perspective only summarized blandly by statements like the following:

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel

Although the United States supported the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which favored the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine, President Franklin D. Roosevelt had assured the Arabs in 1945 that the United States would not intervene without consulting both the Jews and the Arabs in that region. The British, who held a colonial mandate for Palestine until May 1948, opposed both the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in Palestine as well as unlimited immigration of Jewish refugees to the region. Great Britain wanted to preserve good relations with the Arabs to protect its vital political and economic interests in Palestine.

Soon after President Truman took office, he appointed several experts to study the Palestinian issue. In the summer of 1946 . . . . Under the resolution, the area of religious significance surrounding Jerusalem would remain a corpus separatum under international control administered by the United Nations.

Although the United States backed Resolution 181, the U.S. Department of State recommended the creation of a United Nations trusteeship with limits on Jewish immigration and a division of Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab provinces but not states. The State Department, concerned about the possibility of an increasing Soviet role in the Arab world and the potential for restriction by Arab oil producing nations of oil supplies to the United States, advised against U.S. intervention on behalf of the Jews. 

The details show that there has continued to be trampling and subjugation by other nations over Israel and Jerusalem. History tells us that not just a few, but MILLIONS fell by the sword, and Jerusalem continues to be trampled on by the nations. Israel is little more than a client of the US and sometimes Britain. A supposedly "safe," non-democratic national military base, weapons testers and purchasers of US manufacturers, and an appeasement to religiously fanatic Zionists and Christian fundamentalists.

So tell me again how this was fulfilled in 1914:

(Luke 21:24) . . .And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
 

[George88]

51 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I think you just did a pretty good job yourself demolishing your own premise. Recall that your challenge was basically to disprove that the Jews were liberated from Palestine at the "End of the Gentile Times" in 1914:

It takes a truly inept and ignorant individual to attempt to manipulate the storyline, especially when their assertion is utterly untrue. Hilarious!

If that is truly the sole reason why you left the closed club to expose the utter foolishness that occurs within its forum, then you are, without a doubt, accomplishing an outstanding feat.

 

[George88]

57 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

So now you quote (without attribution, btw) British Jewry, Zionism, and the Jewish State, 1936-1956, by Stephan E. C. Wendehorst · 2012.

Your exaggeration is pointless since the information you posted was easily accessible. It is typical for you to resort to ignorance and your AD1914 mindset after losing an argument. No Jehovah's Witness should entertain apostasy by seeking support here, nor should they listen to people like you from the closed club.

[George88]

TWENTY-ONE

The “Liberation” of Palestine

Before 1914, Palestine was an underdeveloped backwater within the Ottoman Empire with no independent or autonomous political or administrative status. A desolate land, it had less than half a million inhabitants at the turn of the twentieth century, most of them Palestinian Muslims, though an old, established Sephardic community had existed there for many centuries. By the eve of World War I the population of Palestine stood at 689,000, of whom 85,000 were Jews; close to half of the 100,000 Jews who had immigrated since 1882 as part of the Zionist project would remain to settle the land.

Find out the origin of this statement, since it is easily accessible like the others. Gain a deeper understanding of the historical origins and significance before attempting to criticize and erroneously assert the ability to debunk them.

[George88]

Origins
In 1878, at the Berlin Conference which brought an end to the Russo-Turkish War (1876-8), the Sultan of Turkey ceded the administration, though not the sovereignty, of Cyprus to Britain. In 1914 (when Britain and Turkey went to war)
Britain annexed Cyprus. Enosis - union with Greece - had existed prior to 1878. In 1915 Britain offered Cyprus to Greece in return for a Greek attack on Serbia, but Greece declined the offer and it was then withdrawn.

Now, if you want to continue to challenge Pastor Russell's teachings and words, you need to do better.  What's another name for Turkey? Ottoman Empire. What is Britain considered? Non-Jew.

"Shoot forth -- When the rich foliage of God's favor covers Israel, and is manifest to all, she will be ripe and ready for the work of blessing, feeding, and healing the nations, according to God's plan. R384:2* Now being signally fulfilled. Not only are thousands of Israelites returning to Palestine, but the Zionist movement has assumed vast proportions to put into a practical shape the proposal for the reorganization of a Jewish state in Palestine. D604 These buds will thrive, but will bear no perfect fruit before October 1914--the full end of Gentile Times. D604

Summer is now nigh -- There are unmistakable signs among the Jews as a people today by which we recognize Christ's words and know that not only the restoration of the Jews is at hand, but also that the Kingdom of God is nigh. R127:4*
 

[JW Insider]

57 minutes ago, George88 said:

The “Liberation” of Palestine

It's still best practice and discussion forum etiquette to identify the sources you copy from. This makes it easier for readers to recognize the context and perspective of the source. In this case, yes, the source is easy to find as A Lethal Obsession: Anti-Semitism from Antiquity to the Global Jihad, by Robert S. Wistrich · 2010. 

This book is probably more damaging to your premise than the last one you quoted. It is selective and biased, but it is a good source for understanding the hateful, anti-semitic underbelly of several fundamentalist and terrorist anti-Israeli ideologies. It shows how whole, entire nations surrounding Israel are constantly fighting and killing and trampling the rights of Israelis in Palestine, and have been ESPECIALLY SINCE 1914. It picks the worst of the racist rhetoric from Muslim national leaders and militant group leaders not just from Hamas and Hezbollah, etc., but from "respected" national and political and religious leaders in the region. The book shows how a lot of this is echoed, not just in the region, but those taking sides all around the world. 

If one needed a textbook to show how Jerusalem and Israel continue to be trampled on by the nations, especially since 1914, then this would be an ugly place to start, but it makes the point unequivocally. 

1 hour ago, George88 said:

Gain a deeper understanding of the historical origins and significance before attempting to criticize and erroneously assert the ability to debunk them.

That's good advice. I've seen people who think they can do something like a Google search on words like "Israel and 1914" and then immediately interpret a snippet from a returned source as if it supports their opinions. But then, when one reads it carefully, or reads a few sentences of context, they could easily see that it actually debunks their premises. That's why it's always best to try to get a deeper understanding before attempting to criticize and assert a false premise. It's excellent advice for me, and for all of us. Thanks.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, George88 said:

What's another name for Turkey? Ottoman Empire. What is Britain considered? Non-Jew.

I agree. These are Gentile nations. And you have provided multiple sources now showing how these Gentile nations ae still subjugating Israel. Israel has been relegated to a puppet state that does the bidding of the United States. It has recently reared its own ugliness and has more openly done exactly what that last book Wistrich's book claimed were "scurrilous accusations" that Israel would never do because they are too morally superior. As an aside, the book also unwittingly  exposed the moral emptiness of nations like the United States and Britain. (Several examples, but just to give one, the book claims that Hamas or like groups say that Israel threatens terrorism with weapons like "depleted uranium" so that Palestinians die more slowly and painfully. The book shows attempts to appeal to the American and Western mindset to make sure it remains on Israel's side by calling such accusations scurrilous, yet the author likely didn't know that the US has supported and manufactured such shells, and the US and Britain recently approved shipments of them to Ukraine to fight Russians.)

There has been no moral high ground in the Israeli-Palestine conflict, historically or currently. I think Russell meant well because he didn't know that Zionists are often radicalized. They are religious fundamentalist and are supporters and exporters of terror, just as is the majority of Israel at the moment.

Israel, currently, is a failed state. If not propped up with billions of dollars and promises of protection by the U.S. its economy and "place" in the region would collapse. 

[George88]

11 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

This book is probably more damaging to your premise than the last one you quoted. It is selective and biased, but it is a good source for understanding the hateful, anti-semitic underbelly of several fundamentalist and terrorist anti-Israeli ideologies. It shows how whole, entire nations surrounding Israel are constantly fighting and killing and trampling the rights of Israelis in Palestine, and have been ESPECIALLY SINCE 1914

Your viewpoint on the conflict between Arabs and Jews, likening it to a biblical prophecy, introduces an interesting perspective. However, as you continue to navigate through your understanding of complex issues, it's important to remain open to considering all the facts. The value of knowledge lies in the expertise of the individual. It seems that, up until now, you have not been able to refute Pastor Russell's statement about the conclusion of the gentile times, especially considering that you have been unable to disprove historical evidence.

It is considered proper etiquette to credit the author when posting content, especially when we lack permission to share a lengthy post that does not qualify as academic use. Failing to do so neglects the author's rights and goes against proper etiquette. While this might not be a concern for some, we mustn't condone such behavior.

Instead of dismissing the significance of the year 1914, you should provide evidence that shows its insignificance to the Jews. This will help demonstrate that 1914 did not mark the end of the gentile times, especially considering that Palestine was still under the Ottoman Empire.
 

[George88]

4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

There has been no moral high ground in the Israeli-Palestine conflict, historically or currently. I think Russell meant well because he didn't know that Zionists are often radicalized. They are religious fundamentalist and are supporters and exporters of terror, just as is the majority of Israel at the moment.

Did he examine Zionism, or the situation of the Jews as mentioned in the bible? I don't remember Pastor Russell being involved in politics or supporting the Jewish nation politically. It would be as absurd as claiming that the Watchtower supports Israel's political future through a war against Hamas. This assumption would be wrong. The truth is that 1914, regardless of attempts to rationalize modern perspectives on conflicts, is simply another sign that the time of the Gentiles ended in 1914 CE and that the true worship described in the bible as the faithful nation waiting for God's judgment began to rise, without actually using that specific term.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, George88 said:

the Zionist movement has assumed vast proportions to put into a practical shape the proposal for the reorganization of a Jewish state in Palestine. D604 These buds will thrive, but will bear no perfect fruit before October 1914--the full end of Gentile Times.

I assume you know that as an organization we are no longer Zionists. You have claimed to be mostly supportive of the Governing Body, and you are clearly if not rabidly supportive of certain doctrines. Russell's prophecies and predictions about Zionism were copied from fellow Zionist supporters. They were right. As expected by Herzl and others, Zionism did "put into practical shape the proposal for the reorganization of a Jewish state in Palestine." And Russell was right that it would bear no perfect fruit before October 1914 -- the full end of the Gentile Times. 

Obviously has not born perfect fruit yet either. A lot of rotten fruit. Yet October was supposed to be the "FULL END" of Gentile rulership. But Gentile Rulership continues. I think you were making the point that Britain and Turkey were "non-Jew" therefore Gentile nations. Russell said Israel would go on increasing while the other nations crumbled into chaos. At first this would happen in October 1914. Then it would happen between October 1914 and October 1915. Finally it would happen within a few months or perhaps even a few years after. Rutherford still bought into it in spite of his anti-Semitic statements against the Jewish race. He thought Russell's prophecies would come true but just delayed until 1917, then 1918, then 1925.

Have you read Rutherford's 1925 book "Comfort for the Jews?"

At any rate. It's all been dropped, and for reasons that were becoming painfully obvious between 1914 and 1925, officially dropped right around 1930. And no one wanted to go support these predictions again after 1947 either. You are the first Witness I know of that still pushes the Zionist predictions as something to support.