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When a teaching changes after baptism.....

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On 7/11/2016 at 10:06 AM, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. The OP is about what happens when there is a change in understanding after your baptism. You are implying that you were tricked somehow. However, if you had been studying for several months you would've learned that changes happen, especially if you prepared for your studies well. That way when you were baptized you wouldn't be under any illusion as to what may happen after your baptism. But let;s just say you feel tricked or fooled what is the common reply. It is 1 Corinthians 13: 8 - 13 and Proverbs 4: 18 they are used hand in hand. But let's go further and say, you don't understand what either of those texts have to do with changes after baptism. The next thread of thinking, is to take you through history from Adam to present day showing you all the adjustments that took place leading down to Jesus then on to our day. I've touched on some of those things. But personally, it is so clear to me that adjustments in thinking have been happening since the beginning it is irrefutable, but maybe you don't believe the taking away of the kingdom from the Jews and to spiritual Israel was a significant adjustment. Did the apostles complain? Saying "this is not what I was baptized into."
 Did they look for excuses to disregard every explanation given or did they accept each adjustment? When they met with the older men of Jerusalem and the result was Acts 15: 28, 29, then it was conveyed to the existing congregations, do you think that was from men or God? I'm interested in your answer to that.

:) What is it we're agreeing to disagree on?  That the apostle Paul said true Christians would be recognized for their constant changing of what they say the Bible really teaches, just the way the WTS has been doing for it's entire history?

Is that what you're agreeing with?  Because I certainly disagree with that.

I wasn't implying anyone was tricked at all.  I thought I was being very clear that JWs change their beliefs when the men on the governing body tell them to because they are listening to those men as though to the voice of God, just as those men have told them to.

[w57 6/15 p.370] Let us now unmistakably identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day, that we may continue in his favor. Listen to the inspired answer to the situation, in Matthew 24:45-47 (NW): “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” And has he? Yes, particularly since 1919 has it been true that he has appointed the collective body of the anointed remnant over all the visible interests of the Kingdom. The “slave” then became responsible not only for ministering to the needs of the anointed body members but also for taking on the responsibility of preaching the good news of the established Kingdom to people of all nations. (Matt. 24:14) Such is true not by their determination of it, but because God himself has so directed. “God has set the members in the body, each one of them, just as he pleased,” is the way it is pictured in 1 Corinthians 12:18 (NW). It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.

If the "slave" is really to be listened to as you would to the voice of God, would you listen to a "slave" who said something like the child born in Revelation 12 is the antichrist?

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39 minutes ago, HollyW said:

If the "slave" is really to be listened to as you would to the voice of God, would you listen to a "slave" who said something like the child born in Revelation 12 is the antichrist?

That's a new one on me, Holly!  When did the GB say that?  Appalling!

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14 hours ago, Witness said:

That's a new one on me, Holly!  When did the GB say that?  Appalling!

From the very beginning of its existence.

This is from the December 1879 WT (Zion's WT) p.2

 

Quote

 

"The woman, clothed with the sun," is the Gospel church,

covered with the precious promises of God and the glorious

light of truth. The moon is the reflection of the sun's brightness,

so the Law or Jewish age was a shadow of the Gospel.

It was light, but not the real, only reflected light. The woman

had the moon under her feet. She had reached a higher plane,

and yet she rested upon the foundation of the apostles and

prophets, the diadem of twelve stars representing the apostles.

( V. 3). The Roman Empire had seven heads (Rome's seven

successive and distinct forms of government) , and ten horns

(divisions of power). "The red dragon," Pagan Rome, persecuted

the church. "His tail drew the third part of the stars

of heaven and did cast them to the earth." "Stars of heaven,"

-the bright ones or ministers and teachers in the church. The

dragon's tail draws them, i. e., these become followers of Pagan

Rome in hopes of having favor with the empire and escaping

persecution. As a result, they lose their position as stars in

the true church, and are "cast to the earth." Persecuted and

reviled, she was pained to be delivered, and longed for the

completion of the promised "Seed of the woman which should

bruise the serpent's head." Her anxiety and desire in this direction

produced a pre-mature birth-"The Man of Sin" (the

papal hierarchy) being the offspring. This "male child," at

first a weak one (A. D. 314), was gradually "caught up unto

God and to his throne," or exalted to the position and titles,

homage and praise of the true "seed." so that "He as God sat

in the temple [church] of God, showing himself that he is

God." And within three hundred years he did "rule the

nations with a rod of iron."

 

You can download it online at 

http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/zions-watch-tower/

And this is from the book Jesus surely would have been inspecting in 1917: The Finished Mystery, Chapter 12 The Birth of the Antichrist, p.187: 12:5. And she brought forth a man child. — The papacy.  — Z.'79-12-2.

http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/finishedmystery/fmr12.html

 

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20 hours ago, HollyW said:

:) What is it we're agreeing to disagree on?  That the apostle Paul said true Christians would be recognized for their constant changing of what they say the Bible really teaches, just the way the WTS has been doing for it's entire history?

Is that what you're agreeing with?  Because I certainly disagree with that.

I wasn't implying anyone was tricked at all.  I thought I was being very clear that JWs change their beliefs when the men on the governing body tell them to because they are listening to those men as though to the voice of God, just as those men have told them to.

[w57 6/15 p.370] Let us now unmistakably identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day, that we may continue in his favor. Listen to the inspired answer to the situation, in Matthew 24:45-47 (NW): “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” And has he? Yes, particularly since 1919 has it been true that he has appointed the collective body of the anointed remnant over all the visible interests of the Kingdom. The “slave” then became responsible not only for ministering to the needs of the anointed body members but also for taking on the responsibility of preaching the good news of the established Kingdom to people of all nations. (Matt. 24:14) Such is true not by their determination of it, but because God himself has so directed. “God has set the members in the body, each one of them, just as he pleased,” is the way it is pictured in 1 Corinthians 12:18 (NW). It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.

If the "slave" is really to be listened to as you would to the voice of God, would you listen to a "slave" who said something like the child born in Revelation 12 is the antichrist?

 

There are lots of straws in your hat, and you are picking at all of them :) I can answer you by asking questions too, without of course answering the questions. We can play this silly game all day long, but if we have nothing to agree on, then we should agree to disagree, unless of course you want stay on this merry go round.

Do you believe Moses was God's spokesperson or in my native language mouthpiece? Just curious, because if you can accept Moses you can accept the "slave" along with all it's imperfections, just like Moses. If you don't that Moses was God's mouthpiece who are you, in fact, disrespecting?

Whom do you think the child of Revelation 12 is, or what :)?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

There are lots of straws in your hat, and you are picking at all of them :) I can answer you by asking questions too, without of course answering the questions. We can play this silly game all day long, but if we have nothing to agree on, then we should agree to disagree, unless of course you want stay on this merry go round.

Do you believe Moses was God's spokesperson or in my native language mouthpiece? Just curious, because if you can accept Moses you can accept the "slave" along with all it's imperfections, just like Moses. If you don't that Moses was God's mouthpiece who are you, in fact, disrespecting?

Whom do you think the child of Revelation 12 is, or what :)?

 

Moses did speak for God, and wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  The parallel you're drawing is that because Moses was imperfect and the men you are following are imperfect, it's okay to keep following them even when they're wrong.  Shouldn't we then make that allowance for all men.

The child of Revelation 12 is obviously Jesus, the Messiah.  

In 1914 the folks of the WTS believed it was the birth of the antichrist, but now you say it was the birth of the Messianic kingdom, and your book, "God's Kingdom Rules", calls this the greatest event ever to occur in the history of the world.  But at the time that you say it occurred, in 1914, it was being called the birth of the antichrist by the WTS.  Is this the Moses-like mistake that will keep them out of the promised land?

 

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6 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Do you believe Moses was God's spokesperson or in my native language mouthpiece? Just curious, because if you can accept Moses you can accept the "slave" along with all it's imperfections, just like Moses. If you don't that Moses was God's mouthpiece who are you, in fact, disrespecting?

Hello Mr. VHC,

I am sure you know Moses communicated with God directly, and was considered above prophets:

 Then He said,

“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.

Why then were you not afraid

To speak against My servant Moses?”  Num 12:6-8

No man, anointed or not, can claim such a position with God.  All knew he was a genuine representative of God.  When it comes to chosen ones, there are two possibilities.

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?”  Matt 24:25

Some become unfaithful slaves, teaching error. 1 Tim 4:1; Matt 24:4,5,11,24,25,48-51;7:15,20; 2 Pet 2:1-3; Col 2:8; John 8:47; 2 Cor 11:13-15; Rev 2:2; 2 Thess 2:1-4; Acts 20:30; Luke 16:1,2; Rev 2:20; 13:7,10,11 

And some actually lead others in the way of truth, remaining connected to the vine of Christ. 1 Cor 4:2,1; John 7:38,39,18,17; John 15:4

Are you comparing  Moses to the GB?  Or rather, should we compare the GB to the Pharisees?

“Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.  Therefore whatever they tell you to observe that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.  For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.  But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments (false piety christening themselves and proclaiming to be “faithful and discreet”) They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,  greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ (…or the "faithful and discreet slave")

But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.  Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.  And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.  But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.  And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.  Matt 23:1-12

I ask you to go to your website and search for Governing Body inspired.  Perhaps in older literature there may be reference to such, but the closest I have found is this:

Theocratic appointments come from Jehovah through his Son and God’s visible earthly channel, “the faithful and discreet slave” and its Governing Body. (Matthew 24:45-47) The whole process of such recommendation and appointment is directed, or guided, by holy spirit. This is the case because the qualifications are set out in God’s Word, which is inspired by holy spirit, and the individual appointed gives evidence of producing the fruitage of that spirit. Therefore, the appointments are to be viewed as being made by holy spirit. w/15/1/15

This seems a pretty hazy conclusion when scriptures speak of Moses as the Servant of the Lord.  Josh. 1:1, 15; 8:21, 23; 18:7

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.  Heb 3:1,2

Moses' faith is compared to Jesus' faith toward the Father!  Can you say the same for the Governing Body, when they lord it over their own brothers by exalting themselves?  "He who humbles himself will be exalted".   No early humble apostle that was faithful, compared himself to Moses.

lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

For this reason, all in the congregation view it as their sacred duty to follow and uphold the direction coming from the faithful slave and its Governing Body. Wt 2007

Do you feel it is your holy, hallowed, blessed, consecrated, sanctified, venerated, revered, (synonyms for sacred) duty to uphold the direction of men that one must question whether they are inspired?  Where is the proof that they are indeed faithful to Christ, their Head, when they have exalted themselves with a title that is not deserved until Christ gives it to whom he will upon his return?

"His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Share your master's joy!'   Matt 25:23

 

http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/04/who-is-slave.html

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts Witness, I'd like to hear your thoughts on these scriptures:

Exodus 3: 1 - 4 Was it God's voice or the angel conveying God's words?

Compare Exodus 14: 19; 23: 20; 33: 2

Numbers 20: 14 - 17 Was it God that brought Israel out of Egypt or was it an angel?

Also, have you read Acts 7: 30 - 38?

Acts 7: 30 “After 40 years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Siʹnai in the flame of a burning thornbush. 31 When Moses saw it, he was amazed at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice was heard: 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’ Moses started trembling and did not dare to investigate further. 33 Jehovah said to him: ‘Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have certainly seen the oppression of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and I have come down to rescue them. Now come, I will send you off to Egypt.’ 35 This same Moses whom they had disowned, saying: ‘Who appointed you ruler and judge?’ is the very one God sent as both ruler and deliverer by means of the angel who appeared to him in the thornbush. 36 This man led them out, performing wonders and signs in Egypt and at the Red Sea and in the wilderness for 40 years.
37 “This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel: ‘God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me.’ 38 This is the one who came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Siʹnai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give us.

So, was it God's voice that Moses heard or was it God's word conveyed by an angel? Very interested in your answer here.

Edit: Just wondering, do either of you, Witness or Holly consider yourself inspired or moved by holy spirit?

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2 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Witness, I'd like to hear your thoughts on these scriptures:

Exodus 3: 1 - 4 Was it God's voice or the angel conveying God's words?

Compare Exodus 14: 19; 23: 20; 33: 2

Numbers 20: 14 - 17 Was it God that brought Israel out of Egypt or was it an angel?

Also, have you read Acts 7: 30 - 38?

Acts 7: 30 “After 40 years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Siʹnai in the flame of a burning thornbush. 31 When Moses saw it, he was amazed at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah’s voice was heard: 32 ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.’ Moses started trembling and did not dare to investigate further. 33 Jehovah said to him: ‘Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have certainly seen the oppression of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and I have come down to rescue them. Now come, I will send you off to Egypt.’ 35 This same Moses whom they had disowned, saying: ‘Who appointed you ruler and judge?’ is the very one God sent as both ruler and deliverer by means of the angel who appeared to him in the thornbush. 36 This man led them out, performing wonders and signs in Egypt and at the Red Sea and in the wilderness for 40 years.
37 “This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel: ‘God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me.’ 38 This is the one who came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Siʹnai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give us.

So, was it God's voice that Moses heard or was it God's word conveyed by an angel? Very interested in your answer here.

Edit: Just wondering, do either of you, Witness or Holly consider yourself inspired or moved by holy spirit?

Hi again Mr V, :)

I'm wondering if maybe a new thread is in order for your questions, unless you are relating them in some way to the question in the OP.  If you are, could you explain how.....for instance, are you saying you believe the men on the WTS governing body are on par with the angel in these passages?

Everyone who has received the Holy Spirit are moved by Him, but it won't be in any way that contradicts scripture.  So, if the men on the governing body were wrong, for instance, about the child in Revelation 12 being the antichrist, that would not have been something that came from the Holy Spirit since it contradicts scripture.  Was the Holy Spirit moving them to identify first the 144,000 as the faithful servant of Matthew 24:45, and then to discard that teaching and identify Russell alone as that servant, then to discard that teaching and again identify the 144,000 as the faithful servant, and now to discard all of those teachings and identify just the handful of men on the WTS governing body as the faithful slave of Matthew 24:45?

How about when they presumed an appointment over all of the Master's earthly interests?  Were they moved by the Holy Spirit to presume that appointment and now moved by Him to discard that belief and say it didn't happen after all and they are still waiting to be found faithful to receive that appointment?

If it's your belief that the leaders of the WTS have been moved by the Holy Spirit in all their teachings, even when those have been wrong teachings and had to be changed, is that the reason you believe JWs should be willing to accept changes in what they've said the Bible really teaches?

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On 7/14/2016 at 8:13 AM, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

So, was it God's voice that Moses heard or was it God's word conveyed by an angel? Very interested in your answer here.

Hello again Sir,

You are defending the GB, I realize that.  You believe they are blessed by the Holy Spirit simply because they are anointed, and because they call themselves the “faithful and discreet slave”. We must remember that any anointed one can fall from God’s grace by their desire for prominence. This was prophesied.  2 Thess 2:1-4; Jude 1:8-13; 3 John 1:9,10; 2 Tim 3:1-9

I believe the Angel of the Lord you are referring to was the Christ himself, as Michael and as the Word.  Jesus has been given various roles and assignments displaying his wondrous capacity, various responsibilities, and divine nature.  Isa 9:6; Luke 1:31-33; Matt 1:21,23; John 1:1,14,29; Rev 19:11,16

He bears the role of Michael, the Archangel (Who is Like God) (Josh 5:13,14), and as the Word (messenger or “angel”) (also Josh 5:13).  It is with the "commanding call" of Christ, that he gather his faithful anointed, with this voice. Rev 1:10,12,13; 1 Thess 4:16; Joel 2:11; Rev 19:11,14,8

Dan 12:1; Rom 7:25; 2 Tim 4:18

1 Cor 10 gives solid evidence of Christ’s presence with Moses and the Israelites:

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,  all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,  all ate the same spiritual foodand all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.  1 Cor 10:1-5 

The one who bears this spiritual food is mentioned in John 6:

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe." John 6:26-32;36(John6:26-32,36)

This is the bread which comedown from heaven that one may eat of it and not die.  John 6:50

Jesus represents or is, the “bread of life” as the Word, and we see he provided spiritual sustenance from God to those people in the wilderness.   John 6:33,35

Since Jesus and the Father are one, sharing the same light, (John 10:30; 8:12; 14:20; 1 John 1:5) the Angel of the Lord that appeared to Moses was Christ, in one of him many capacities.  John 8:18 Thus, ultimately it was God who lead Moses and the people out of Egypt, as they are one.

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”  Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.  John 14:8-11  (Gen 16:10,13; Judges 13:21,22)

The Word was with the Father since the beginning.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” John 8:54-58 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”  John 8:56-58

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.  This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.   John 1:1-3;6-9

To “bear witness of the Light”, and God is this Light. Since Jesus is also light,  it shows the ability of Christ to represent God to Moses, and cause Moses’ face to shine.  Exod 34:35 (Matt 17:2; Rev 1:16)

 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”  John 6:40 (Ps 78:21-25)

He is also the “hidden manna” of Rev 2:17, which is Truth.  (Matt 4:4; John 17:17)

To compare the GB with Moses goes against God’s arrangement today. The only Head and Leader of the anointed ones is Jesus Christ, and they are not expected to replace Christ as Head among any man. Matt 23:8,10; Eph 1:22; 5:29,30,28; Col 1:18  We know the GB does not speak face to face with God, (Heb 9:24) nor can they be compared to the angel that appeared before Moses. God has given Jesus divine approval to be Head of the Congregation and none other.  Eph 1:22; John 8:18; Mark 9:7

At this time of the end, Jesus again leads those of a righteous and repentant heart toward salvation through the declaration of truth Jesus provides them.  Rev 11:1-11

 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts.(2 Cor 3:3; Heb 10:15-17) And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”  Jer 31:31-34

 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thess 4:16

Deut 5:6; Exod 20:2;7:5;29:46;Num 15:41; Ps 81:10; Deut 5:6; Hos 13:4

 

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My point was that God made the corrections to men, not men making corrections to men. When you have a group that changes from left to right and back to left again, then you must know that this did not come from God. Could God use this left right left to His advantage? sure, He uses people and circumstances to His advantage all the time, to work out His will. When a group claims to speak for God and these changes become apparent, it is not that hard to see God is not using this group as His mouthpiece.

Was it not by men that God corrected his people in the past? Was not Moses used to convey God’s thoughts to Korah, Dathan and Abiram? Were not the Judges humans used to bring the people back from apostasy. Was not Nathan a man that corrected David? Were not all the prophets sent by God? I think my point is established. If you believe God led Israel through the wilderness you will know they did not travel in a straight line :D Either you believe God led the people through the wilderness or you believe a man did who thought he was guided by God. Which is it? Remember the law was a major change for the people, a lot of ingrained thinking had permeated them while living among the Egyptians.

You know the saying that the WT uses, the one about tacking into the wind as a sailboat does? A few things came to mind about that. One, if this is describing the mode of operation of the WT how does this compare to say John the Baptist?

  John made the pathway before God straight (Isa 40:3/Matt 3:3/John 1:23/Mark 1:3/Luke 3:4). John preached one thing, repentance,  and this didn't change. He did not say "repent" one day and then the next "you don't need to repent yet". The second point that came to mind was how if by tacking, a sailboat gains distance traveled, the sailboat also has a course set out and a destination. What ground/distance is gained in a flip flop of doctrines? It is reversing to a previous point, not advancing. What destination is there in mind when a complete reversal takes place?

John’s baptism was insufficient to be saved was it not? Because all had to be baptized into Christ. If John’s baptize was enough there would be no need to be baptized into to Christ. Hence, a major adjustment for the followers of John. Many of them clung to John but some did not and were baptized into Christ. Now, question, those who stayed in the baptism of John – would they receive holy spirit and be guided by it? I think also we need to look at the meaning of the word “Straight” very carefully. Taken literally we are inclined to think a straight line or direct path, but God often has not taken the most direct rout in a matter. For example, before the crossing at the Red Sea the Israelites reached Etham at which point they could have gone straight up into the promised land minus 40 years of sojourneying. Instead, they ‘turned back’ and went down to ‘Pihahiroth in view of Baal-zephon’. In human eyes, this was a catastrophic error and a major adjustment for the people who began wondering where Moses was leading them. To Pharoah it looked as though the Israelites were wondering in confusion! Do you see something similar happening today? In human eyes, the Governing Body may look like crazy men leading the people in what may seem confusing directions. But maybe you are not able to see the pillar of cloud leading them by day and the pillar of night leading them by night.

What ground is gained? You’re thinking in human dimensions. Remember, our faith is only made stronger by getting a tested quality through enduring trials. Most of the people were untested and prone to complaining and looking to the things behind. They were spiritual babes not yet knowing how to walk. The light of the sun was still at early dawn and while we know much more since that time full day is still some way to go. Thus, God’s view of progress is different than ours, what takes us a thousand years is only a short time to God or a day.

 

The difference between us both sticking with the Bible and not being in agreement, it that of a bias we have within ourselves. I am content in using the Bible alone and allowing it to support itself. Are you?

An issue here is whether millions of individuals can separately arrive at the exact same conclusion. It certainly is not impossible for God to lead his people this way, but the question is, is that the way God leads his people. What does Bible history tell us? Adam instructed Eve and his family, Enoch taught his son, who taught his son , who taught Noah, who taught his family, who taught their families, who spread abroad after the flood with the line of Shem leading to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Israelites, who were led by Moses, Joshua, Judges, Kings, informed by prophets, apostles and today the Governing Body. To me, God has always used men to lead his people. The very basic uniti of society is the family arrangement. God uses the family head to direct the family.

Another aspect to consider, is that while God’s people are in their millions not all have the same ability to understand God’s will. There is great variation among God’s people. If I may use the illustration of hiking through a national park as a group. How should the people travel? Together or individually? Would individuals have a better chance of going it alone with just a map or compass? What about the individual needs and abilities of each person, some may be fit but others may not be so fit? If you decide to travel as a group, should you travel at the pace of the fittest member or the least fit? I’m sure you’re aware that directing an organization is subject to a huge amount of variables. Now, think about the varying spiritual states of each JW. A large number of people that we are meeting cannot read, what good would the Bible alone do for such people unless the people knew how to read. Was it not Paul that said “How could I know unless someone told me?” Or did he say “How could I know unless I read it myself?”. What about Philip running alongside the Ethiopian Official? He was reading a part of the Bible, but Philip asked, do you know/ understand/ comprehend what you’re reading? Again, his reply helps us to see: “How could I unless someone guided me?” What about Jesus’ commission to preach, if it were up to individuals to use the Bible alone to teach ourselves, would not Jesus direction be invalid? If we make Jesus direction invalid are we not then bringing heavy judgement upon ourselves.

I agree that neither of us can understand everything there is, and we will miss things along the way, but our willingness to bring forth our ideas for criticism is what helps us remove our bias. Without an independent party (others on this forum and elsewhere) giving us what they see in both our view as well as their view, then we have a group who might as well believe the sky is falling.

Hahaha, to some people we are suffering from mass delusion – sky falling syndrome :D I’ve done enough talking. Over to you…

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