Is "dynamic energy" a Proper Translation In Isaiah 40:26?

[AlanF]

On 12/12/2020 at 9:37 AM, Srecko Sostar said:

Not so related. Spirit is in person (or in animal).

Power is in the battery of your car. :))

Like most people who are semi-educated in Watchtower "science", Arauna does not know the difference between literal and metaphorical uses of words such as are translated as "spirit" and "power". Spirit literally means "breath of God". Now, God, not having lungs or breathing air, does not have literal breath. "Breath" is simply a metaphor for "the power of God" in Genesis. When Genesis says that the spirit of God was moving over the waters, it literally says "the wind of God". Ancient readers obviously knew that the literal wind was powerful, and therefore had no trouble understanding the metaphor. As regards "power", everyone can see what that means. Someone like Goliath was "powerful". Bears are powerful. The wind is powerful. Lightning is powerful. God was regarded as powerful. It's not rocket science.

Many biblical literalists go way overboard in trying to attribute modern understandings, such as of scientific ideas, to ancient writings. Islamic fundamentalists do the same thing with the Koran.

[Arauna]

14 hours ago, AlanF said:

Still no connection with E=mc^2 -- the Watchtower arguments are demonstrably false.

There are many respectable scientists who are JWs and many other scientists who are Christians.   They find the statements in the bible , which borders on science,  highly compatible with science.  You make many wild, arrogant, statements without giving proof.  You come across as patronizing -  as though you are the only one who understand science. Science is only a tool to understand the natural world. It is not a God and not an explanation of everything as you pretend it to be. 

As I pointed out earlier - scientists are just imperfect men who can make errors and are prone to ego, lying, evil , professional jealousy greedy...etc. just like any other educated or uneducated person.  (This Corona virus fiasco is a good example of science or rather, the scientists who run the science.  And it seems they think they can run the world under a technocratic - corperatocricy in future under the UN...... lol. We know, bible prophecy indicates a major failure for humankind and their science.)

Evidence is there that atheists make science their God..... but it is an extremely  imperfect God.    Science lacks the mathematic formulas to connect the different sciences together and cannot even explain the energies that exist - such as magnetism and how it connects with weak and strong energies and gravity - to get to  one conclusion for the universe and earth.  There are string theory and quantum theory - all theories that give a little explanation and are NOT compatible.... they give explanations only to a certain point ...... and then it lacks that which is needed to explain it all.

Do not pretend here on this forum that science has the answers - it only pretends to have the answers. The reality is - is it extremely DEFICIENT. 

14 hours ago, AlanF said:

Idiot savants have

I have not seen any "scientific " argument from you which is based on science- you mostly revile others... that is all.  You are a perfect advertisement for your godlessness.

14 hours ago, AlanF said:

more knowledge of "science" than any other educated people of their time. And in most cases their expressions reflect the common misconce

I suggest you read up on that history and your eyes will open up.  I am not here to teach a person who makes wild statements. I like to speak to logical, human being which is prepared weigh evidences.  Even in modern times there is a flat earth society..... so what do you think they believed 4000 years ago?

14 hours ago, AlanF said:

excellent observers and had good knowledge of mathematics. S

I said moses was educated.  It is interesting to read the construction dimensions given for the tabernacle.... either moses or God gave those dimensions and they seem accurate and detailed.. Come to think of it - even the arc built by Noah is very much a stable construction - similar in dimension to the large modern ocean liners..... just to give 2 examples.  I think you are unscientific - and your dismissiveness makes you so. A true scientist searches for the truth and follows it - wherever the conclusions may lead him to. You are too scared to do that. You may just have to re-evaluate your false claims

[Arauna]

14 hours ago, AlanF said:

Spirit literally means "breath of God". Now, God,

Neshamah means ' breath ' in its restricted sense. Ru'ah has a much wider application. It is an "active" wind or energy which brings visible results. It is always in motion and cannot be controlled by humans..........whereas  "power"  - can be latent or active..... so much for your lumping of all 3 words together in such a sloppy way.

 

[Arauna]

15 hours ago, AlanF said:

most people who are semi-educated in Watchtower "science",

You know nothing about me. My science education comes from reading science - as I have an interest in it.  I can give you many reasons why I do not believe in evolution and most of them you will not find in a watchtower publication...... lol.  

 

[AlanF]

Arauna said:

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17 hours ago, AlanF said:
Still no connection with E=mc^2 -- the Watchtower arguments are demonstrably false.

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There are many respectable scientists who are JWs and many other scientists who are Christians.

"Respectable" is a relative term. Many of these believe that God created animal life beginning about 20,000 years ago. Far more believe God created the entire universe 6,000 years ago.

So what? These people reject real science in favor of religious belief that they fall all over themselves to think is real science.

And of course, we still find no argumentation from you justifying the Watchtower's false claim about Isaiah and E=mc^2. Obviously you've conceded my point but are too arrogant to admit it. Now you're just putting out a lot of smoke.

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They find the statements in the bible , which borders on science,  highly compatible with science.

Like God creating ALL marine and bird life before ANY land-based-life, beginning just 20,000 years ago.

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You make many wild, arrogant, statements without giving proof.

Like my debunking of the Watchtower's claim that Isaiah wrote about E=mc^2.

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You come across as patronizing

A standard refrain from religious fanatics who believe nonsense like Young-Earth Creationism.

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-  as though you are the only one who understand science.

YOU have clearly demonstrated that you do not. So have Watchtower writers.

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Science is only a tool to understand the natural world. It is not a God and not an explanation of everything as you pretend it to be.

All proper scientists, and those who truly know science, know this.

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As I pointed out earlier - scientists are just imperfect men who can make errors and are prone to ego, lying, evil , professional jealousy greedy...etc. just like any other educated or uneducated person.

So what? Many people understand that in the long run, science tends to be self-correcting. That's because there are so many scientists who would love to make a name for themselves by overturning the findings of other ones. After a long time, whatever ideas survive the fray become recognized and solid science. Because such ideas have been tested rigorously and are backed up by copious real-world data, it's not likely they will be overturned, because a new idea will have to go through the same rigorous tests, plus explain all new data.

Religious fanatics like Jehovah's Witnesses know little of this process, because their beliefs are based, not on real science and observation and theorizing, but on whatever the leaders dictate.

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(This Corona virus fiasco is a good example of science or rather, the scientists who run the science.

Correct. And the fact that such people seem to be having real success in coming up with an effective vaccine -- despite the opposition from certain criminal political elements -- confirms how real science works.

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And it seems they think they can run the world under a technocratic - corperatocricy in future under the UN...... lol. We know, bible prophecy indicates a major failure for humankind and their science.)

Which all proves what I've seen from you for some time now -- you're a dyed-in-the-wool conspiracy theorist, with all that that implies.

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Evidence is there that atheists make science their God.....

Nonsense. Most scientists are quite willing to change their ideas -- so long as proper evidence is given.

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but it is an extremely  imperfect God.    Science lacks the mathematic formulas to connect the different sciences together and cannot even explain the energies that exist - such as magnetism and how it connects with weak and strong energies and gravity - to get to  one conclusion for the universe and earth.  There are string theory and quantum theory - all theories that give a little explanation and are NOT compatible.... they give explanations only to a certain point ...... and then it lacks that which is needed to explain it all.

So what? Science is an ongoing process. Neither the overall enterprise of science, nor any sane scientist, claims to know everything.

Your mistake is thinking that science-accepting people are religious fanatics like you. Hence you think that proper science must be able to explain every phenomenon in the universe right now. You're wrong.

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Do not pretend here on this forum that science has the answers - it only pretends to have the answers. The reality is - is it extremely DEFICIENT.

Science has SOME answers -- far more than anything coming from the Bible or religious circles. Science knows that the earth is not shaped like a pizza pie. The Bible does not.

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  17 hours ago, AlanF said:
Idiot savants have

I have not seen any "scientific " argument from you which is based on science-

 

Correction: you've blinded yourself. That's why you don't "see".

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you mostly revile others... that is all.  You are a perfect advertisement for your godlessness.

Back to the standard, fact-free ad hominems. But I consider that a compliment.

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  17 hours ago, AlanF said:
  
Arauna: you demeaned the questions asked by the bible writer.

AlanF: Not at all. What I have consistently pointed out is that Bible writers demonstrate no more knowledge of "science" than any other educated people of their time. And in most cases their expressions reflect the common misconceptions of their time, such as when Isaiah 40:22 clearly indicates a pizza-pie shaped earth. A fact that I've pointed out several times and you've carefully ignored.

I suggest you read up on that history and your eyes will open up.

 

Been there, done that. You obviously have not.

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I am not here to teach a person who makes wild statements.

I make no wild statements. You can give no examples of such.

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I like to speak to logical, human being which is prepared weigh evidences.

Demonstrably false.

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Even in modern times there is a flat earth society.....

So what? The Watchtower Society has long taught that life on earth is only some 27,000 years old.

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so what do you think they believed 4000 years ago?

Depends on which society you're talking about. The Greeks on the whole certainly knew the earth is a globe by about 600 BCE. There is evidence that the Sumerians knew it by about 3000 BCE. That says nothing about the beliefs of the common people, who have always -- and still do -- believed all manner of nonsense.

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  17 hours ago, AlanF said:
excellent observers and had good knowledge of mathematics. S

I said moses was educated.

 

But not with regard to concepts like E=mc^2.

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It is interesting to read the construction dimensions given for the tabernacle.... either moses or God gave those dimensions and they seem accurate and detailed..

Wow! Such a treasure trove of scientific knowledge!

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Come to think of it - even the arc built by Noah is very much a stable construction - similar in dimension to the large modern ocean liners..... just to give 2 examples.

So what? The archaeologist/historian Irving Finkel of the British Museum has argued that the traditional circular boat called a coracle used in Iraq for as much as 5,000 years best fits the pre-biblical Flood story found in the Akkadian epic of Atra-Hasis ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atra-Hasis ). A coracle is more stable than an "ark" such as described in Genesis. Finkel is quite entertaining and his take on the Noah's Flood story is easy to find:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_fkpZSnz2I&list=RD92bjJ-prtyk&index=10

Furthermore, careful scientific studies have shown that a wooden structure as large as "Noah's Ark" would not be able to support its own weight if subjected to real-world forces. That's why the largest wooden ships built in the 19th century, some 110 meters long, all quickly fell apart, and had to be replaced by iron vessels.

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I think you are unscientific

Merely because you have no idea what you're talking about most of the time.

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- and your dismissiveness makes you so.

Wrong. I first present argumentation and data, and after various ignoramuses reject it without counter argumentation, only then do I dismiss them. Of course, when such peoples' behavior forms a pattern, anyone with any brains comes to view them as crackpots.

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A true scientist searches for the truth and follows it - wherever the conclusions may lead him to.

Been there, done that.

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You are too scared to do that. You may just have to re-evaluate your false claims

LOL! Said like a true religious fanatic. Do you know how many times I've seen such nonsense claimed by such fanatics? And of course, such people direct their vitriol against ANY and ALL people who argue scientifically against their religious myths.

Your continued refusal to deal with the fact that the Watchtower's claim that Isaiah knew about E=mc^2 is a good example. Lots of huffing and puffing, but no actual arguments.

[AlanF]

Arauna said:

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 17 hours ago, AlanF said:
Spirit literally means "breath of God". Now, God,

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Neshamah means ' breath ' in its restricted sense. Ru'ah has a much wider application.

The latter is what is used in Genesis 1. The former is irrelevant.

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It is an "active" wind or energy which brings visible results.

Did I not say that?

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It is always in motion and cannot be controlled by humans..........whereas  "power"  - can be latent or active.....

They all come from the same roots -- something big and strong.

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so much for your lumping of all 3 words together in such a sloppy way.

Nonsense. You're simply too proud and ignorant to understand what I've said. Are you prepared for a much more detailed exposition? No, of course not.

[AlanF]

Arauna said:

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17 hours ago, AlanF said:
most people who are semi-educated in Watchtower "science",

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You know nothing about me.

Of course I do. Your words on this forum tell a great deal about you. Your "science" consists of parroting ancient mythical "knowledge", along with a conspiracy-theory take on modern science.

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My science education comes from reading science - as I have an interest in it.

So what? Anyone can read science, but without a solid science education, much goes over their heads. Or in one ear and out the other. The brains of religious fanatics contain an information filter that does that job.

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I can give you many reasons why I do not believe in evolution

You've tried that before and failed miserably. Your objections all boil down to some form of The Argument From Personal Incredulity and reflect the worst sins of Young-Earth Creationism and so-called Intelligent Design, all of which has been thoroughly trashed by proper scientists and knowledgeable commentators.

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and most of them you will not find in a watchtower publication...... lol.

Of course not. The world of conspiracy-theorists is chock full of nonsense.

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

They find the statements in the bible , which borders on science,  highly compatible with science.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 

The consensus among scientists, astronomers and cosmologists is that the Universe as we know it was created in a massive explosion.

Explosion = Light 

So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs.

Deep sleep = anesthesia .................Took one of the man’s ribs = surgery

Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib

Made a woman from the rib = type of cloning

[AlanF]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 

The consensus among scientists, astronomers and cosmologists is that the Universe as we know it was created in a massive explosion.

Not really. The Big Bang was not in any sense an explosion, at least not in any normal sense of "explosion". Rather, it was an expansion of space-time from a tiny blob of whatever. You can read about this at any number of websites that explain physics.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Explosion = Light 

The expanding primordial matter, consisting of quarks, electrons, photons and lots of other stuff, according to the latest ideas was opaque to light. This is because all that stuff formed a plasma, which absorbs light. After 300,000 years of expansion, the universe cooled sufficiently to allow quarks to join up into protons and neutrons, and then combine with electrons to form atoms. At that point the plasma was mostly gone, and the universe became transparent to light.

[Arauna]

On 12/14/2020 at 10:06 PM, AlanF said:

expansion of space-time

As well as matter forming from the 'controlled' energy.

[AlanF]

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

As well as matter forming from the 'controlled' energy.

Whatever. Still has nothing to do with what the Bible says: "power, strength" in the sense of The Incredible Hulk, NOT "dynamic energy" in the sense of E=mc^2.

[Arauna]

On 12/14/2020 at 5:43 PM, AlanF said:

Far more believe God created the entire universe 6,000 years ago.

This is a blatant lie - Your speak of your own originality as it is you who wish to paint JWs as idiots.

Even the silliest people know that the earth and heavens cannot have been created in 6000 years.  However, JWs accept that the earth itself was prepared in 6 epochs called "days" and the entire period of preparation of the earth is also called a day. 

On 12/14/2020 at 5:43 PM, AlanF said:

Like my debunking o

I have seen very little debunking and much more insults any very little science coming from you! You have not yet explained the Cambrian explosion...... One layer of earth wherein all  the different animals appear fully formed.  Can you explain this process?  Please debunk this without insults and without exulting in your superior intellect... or changing the subject because you usually answer with an unrelated question.

On 12/14/2020 at 10:06 PM, AlanF said:

to allow quarks to join up into protons and neutrons,

first there was energy - then came all the "other" stuff. 

 

On 12/14/2020 at 10:06 PM, AlanF said:

the universe became transparent to light.

That is what happened on earth as well.  After the cooling of the atmosphere the expanse had to be cleared up for the light from the sun to shine through.