Why does the governing body lie?

[Space Merchant]

20 minutes ago, Witness said:

I am not speaking of any church.  I am speaking about the Watchtower organization that disfellowships one for rejecting man-made doctrine, rejecting it as salvation, and for one’s testimony to Christ.  Rev 12:11

Excommunication and or expelling applies to all churches, even the Jehovah's Witness churches, no matter how you knock it, it applies to all, even in Islam and Judaism. Dis fellowship in the JW church is nothing different than a Takfir or a Herem.

You do not have proof nor had shown any and or lack that the excommunication in the JW church is man-made, if you do by all means post it here if you think what you are saying is truth, as you claim, because I can easily point out what Jesus said regarding the church of which all churches follow regardless of their denomination, for this is not our first discussion of the church if I last recall.

Using Revelations 12:11 is irrelevant to your claim of a false form of excommunication, if which you are lacking information on. In addition, that verse alone connects and is compared to Acts 1:8, 2 Timothy 1:8, Revelations 1:9 and a dozen more verses of which do not connect at all in the realm of excommunication.

20 minutes ago, Witness said:

You may know a lot about the organization but you don’t know enough to realize this is fact, because you haven’t been a JW.  As John Butler said, you don’t realize the fear factor those in power put upon the sheep.  You don’t realize that transgressing’s man’s doctrine marks them as spiritually “dead”. 

I know a lot because I have studied several faiths, for I have mention this time and time again to you and others before. I am knowledgeable in the Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as Islam, Judaism, and the like (about a decade of knowledge hence why I am not blind as you or eat from the hands that spew conspiracy), and the reason it is important to be knowledge because it is correct to understand where so and so is coming from, especially if you are teaching to gospel to the person and or coming to common ground with so and so, this also includes knowing fully the Bible and Scripture because as I last recall you last made claims about an Interlinear bible, but remain oblivious to where the interlinear bible's source originates from - hence whereas I expressed my knowledge with pure facts and information, alongside textual criticism and bible strong's.

You can't use John's comment to help you here, I had made 2 responses to that comment and fact, you can go and see it for yourself for I will not waste time repposting it again because unlike some here, I am aware of things and my research on the matter gave me the conclusion regarding the Theology of other faiths.

Can you provide give ample proof to this comment you made? : You don’t realize that transgressing’s man’s doctrine marks them as spiritually “dead”. 

Spiritual Death is indeed a real thing, one cannot think of it as something false.

Because there is a clear source that can cause this claim of yours to fall back on you.

20 minutes ago, Witness said:

It is not a sin to reject lies.

Christ is our only judge.   

You claim lies but yet you do not give detailed proof of such. Christ gave the ability to excommunicate and or the removing of someone from the church by means of his foundation, how far will you go to refute what the bible says?

20 minutes ago, Witness said:

You are the one incorrect.  Jesus is not responsible for putting into motion, false doctrine.  Do you even know that the organization teaches all churches - ALL - aside from the organization are part of Babylon the Great?  That includes your beliefs and whatever church you go to.

On the contrary, you just shot yourself in the foot, Witness, but it wouldn't faze me for how you responded before regarding those who adhere to the Great Commission, and now you claim the church is part of Babylon, for such a claim you do realize the gravity of information and source that is against you, do you not?

Yet I await to see how your proof regarding excommunication.

As for the other stuff, there is evidences and information that proof even your assumptions and claims as false vs. those who actually know this stuff.

That includes my beliefs and the church I go to? Care to explain my believes because my beliefs in the scripture corrected you before as well as my knowledge in manuscripts used for scripture, and I will not waste my time bringing up those corrections again and or link said corrections. As for my so called church, I am there to help out and discuss on scripture, the bible we are encourages to learn and by means of bible study we take in information, in addition to studying Greek and Hebrew, after the Passover we are dealing with examples we can learn from the women of the bible.

Friend, next time you make claims and or willing to test someone, make sure there is a floor of where you stand for one cannot speak his or her resolve if he cannot stand upright - especially when it comes to speaking about what is true. That being said, the people tend to listen to those who know the scriptures well. Also do your research on Matthew 16:19 because the next comment you make on excommunication will only reap a biblical response you cannot cash.

[Witness]

50 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Can you provide give ample proof to this comment you made? : You don’t realize that transgressing’s man’s doctrine marks them as spiritually “dead”. 

"Cutting off from the Christian congregation does not involve immediate death, so family ties continue. Thus, a man who is disfellowshipped or who disassociates himself may still live at home with his Christian wife and faithful children The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home. It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum, in line with the divine principle: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person [or guilty of another gross sin], . . . not even eating with such a man."-1 Corinthians 5:11. Understandably, this may be difficult because of emotions and family ties, such as grandparents' love for their grandchildren. Yet, this is a test of loyalty to God, as stated by the sister quoted on page 26." Watchtower 1988 Apr 15 p.27

"Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to "hate what is bad." When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked." Watchtower 1961 Jul 15 p.420                                                                                      

52 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

On the contrary, you just shot yourself in the foot, Witness, but it wouldn't faze me for how you responded before regarding those who adhere to the Great Commission, and now you claim the church is part of Babylon, for such a claim you do realize the gravity of information and source that is against you, do you not?

What did I say?  I said, ”Do you even know that the organization teaches all churches - ALL - aside from the organization are part of Babylon the Great?  That includes your beliefs and whatever church you go to.”

rs p. 49-p. 53

"Modern-day religions have perpetuated many of ancient Babylon’s doctrines. Hence, the world empire of false religion is well named Babylon the Great. (Revelation 17:5) That international religious conglomerate has already suffered a fall similar to that of ancient Babylon in 539 B.C.E. (Revelation 14:8; 18:2) In 1919 the remnant of Christ’s brothers came out of spiritual captivity and shook off the religious influence of Christendom, a dominant part of Babylon the Great. Since then Christendom has lost considerable influence in many lands where it was formerly strong."  Ip-2 chapter 8 pp 105-119

The Watchtower is taught as the one, true, religion.  There is no other.  It is taught that all those outside of the Watchtower are not protected by God’s spirit.  They don’t consider other religions as part of the “Body of Christ”, as you do.   This is why a person who rejects the organization is considered an apostate.  If I was to reject the Watchtower and join your church, I would be considered an apostate and disfellowshipped, because I am rejecting "Jehovah's organization".                                                     

56 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

You do not have proof nor had shown any and or lack that the excommunication in the JW church is man-made,

Under disfellowshipping acts:   Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses: “Shepherd the Flock of God”

This is most definitely regarding man contrived doctrine.  All “old light” and “new light” is man-made doctrine.   

Sir.  Unless you have been a JW for a period of time, you don’t understand what the Watchtower truly teaches or practices.  You also don’t understand that within it, are true, authentic anointed ones, and the only place you will find them.   This is something that most all JWs will tell you.  

 

 

[Space Merchant]

2 hours ago, Witness said:

"Cutting off from the Christian congregation does not involve immediate death, so family ties continue. Thus, a man who is disfellowshipped or who disassociates himself may still live at home with his Christian wife and faithful children The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home. It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum, in line with the divine principle: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person [or guilty of another gross sin], . . . not even eating with such a man."-1 Corinthians 5:11. Understandably, this may be difficult because of emotions and family ties, such as grandparents' love for their grandchildren. Yet, this is a test of loyalty to God, as stated by the sister quoted on page 26." Watchtower 1988 Apr 15 p.27

To be cut-off from the church is indeed excommunication and family ties do indeed continue, however, religious and or church ties will be severed. Other than that, you just quoted how the JWs excommunicate members of their community, which is nothing different from others, especially in a Restorationist faith. Excommunication is considering a test of loyalty to God and in showing love to the member who has been excommunicated from the church. Despite not having church and or religious ties, their family ties include their family, and encouragement from their family to return to the church and at times counsel from church leaders, hence what was linked pervious which give word to the Restorationist theology regarding excommunication. However, dealing with and or being with someone who has been excommunicated will not only come as a shock, but an emotional thing for so and so has been kicked out of the church by means of excommunication either by sin and or some other act that is not prohibited inside of the church.

As for almost no contact, excommunication is followed by a shunning command, for at times contact with relatives, for such a thing is not easy for any Christian, especially when dealing with someone who has reached the point of apostasy in his or her view of God, thus making excommunication and or contact with such an individual very difficult vs. those who are excommunicated but does not hate God, his Son, his shepherds, the community of which the church resides in regarding professing worship to God and following scripture, etc.

Since you are clearly a fan of Barnes, this is what he himself had to say in this regard about Excommunication, check out what he had to say on this, which goes hand in hand with the practices of excommunication of the church (p. 208): https://books.google.com/books?id=ZKICAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=barnes+Regard+him+as+obstinate,+self-willed,+and+guilty&source=bl&ots=2H8XdRZEpB&sig=xNuMLZCfBqgBZ1567tbsOL-Poz4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3qIiuq6TaAhVs5oMKHUr9BmAQ6AEILDAC#v=onepage&q=self-willed&f=false

Other than that, expelling, excommunication, to shun, to cut off, etc. of incorrigible sinners is a clear and an explicit teaching in the Bible.

For Jesus Christ had established such as a requirement for the Christian church to follow, of which I have stated before. Anyone who believes otherwise simply does not really know the Bible nor Christ, let alone those who consider changing and or cherry picking scripture is the best course of action in an attempt to not follow a law or two that originates from the bible, in turn from God. Jesus himself had said in Matthew 18:17: “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”

Excommunication, is and was exercised by the early Christian church, and there was a reason as to why Apostle Paul had been very clear and explicit on the matter and that being said, excommunication has never been truly changed, unless you are a mainstream Christian who has changed it and or against the practice.

The next time you assume something is man-made, make sure it isn’t a practice in the bible first, then perhaps you would gain a chancing claim that would truly push your resolve, but sadly, this practice is biblical, especially regarding the Christian Church.

2 hours ago, Witness said:

"Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to "hate what is bad." When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked." Watchtower 1961 Jul 15 p.420       

I will just put this out here, if someone comes to know the will of God but refuses to do it, in turn, such a person is gaining, not God’s love, but his anger and or hatred, disfavor, if you will.

For if a man practices things that God clearly hates, it would spark his hatred towards those things of which he detest, and those who practice it, for the bible says in Psalms 11:5: The LORD [Yahweh/Jehovah] tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.

We can also see the words of Apostle Paul, for he makes clear in his letter to the Hebrews as we read Hebrews 10:26, 27: (26) For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (27) but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

A wise Christian man and or woman know very well that there is a time to love and when it is a time to hate, as we see in Ecclesiastes 3:8. Christians will indeed not sit at the table of wicked persons who are knowingly sinning and openly do such and or professing it, but such a person would pray for them, even though they are like this, some will consider the person who clearly does not want to know who God is and are knowingly sinning, for in the eyes of God this so called person may become a potential enemy, especially those who attempt to preach to change God's law and or what his Son had professed when he walked the earth, in addition to those whom he had placed to have such ability over the church of which the Christ is the head of.

Ironically, some Christians will attempt to preach to such persons, but if the person does not listen and or does not give a care of who God is and or insults God, dust off your feet and go to the next person. Regarding JWs, so far they have the spotlight on them when it comes to preaching the gospel to the good and the bad, especially of which the environment they are in, for as I said before, anyone Christian who takes the Great Commission seriously will adhere to it, be it if the gospel teachings is directed to a good person, or a bad person.

Romans 12:9: Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. (see Psalm 97:10).

2 hours ago, Witness said:

What did I say?  I said, ”Do you even know that the organization teaches all churches - ALL - aside from the organization are part of Babylon the Great?  That includes your beliefs and whatever church you go to.”

rs p. 49-p. 53

"Modern-day religions have perpetuated many of ancient Babylon’s doctrines. Hence, the world empire of false religion is well named Babylon the Great. (Revelation 17:5) That international religious conglomerate has already suffered a fall similar to that of ancient Babylon in 539 B.C.E. (Revelation 14:8; 18:2) In 1919 the remnant of Christ’s brothers came out of spiritual captivity and shook off the religious influence of Christendom, a dominant part of Babylon the Great. Since then Christendom has lost considerable influence in many lands where it was formerly strong."  Ip-2 chapter 8 pp 105-119

The Watchtower is taught as the one, true, religion.  There is no other.  It is taught that all those outside of the Watchtower are not protected by God’s spirit.  They don’t consider other religions as part of the “Body of Christ”, as you do.   This is why a person who rejects the organization is considered an apostate.  If I was to reject the Watchtower and join your church, I would be considered an apostate and disfellowshipped, because I am rejecting "Jehovah's organization".   

If you knew what I know, you wouldn’t think as such of Jehovah’s Witnesses, for they are not part of Babylon the Great – far from it, and I am surprised no one had a clue of “how and why” the JWs got banned in Egypt and Russia, let alone what is happening to them there. There are key figures who are obviously part of Babylon the Great, one can say Pope Francis, for he had somewhat of an involvement of the JW ban, a brief moment of encouragement he gave to the RoC leader of the Russian Church, of which even the Russians saw this but where silenced by the FSB.

That being said, the United States have their own faction of people, political and religious, while Russia has their own, Iran joining them for they are not a fan of the US, all of them having their religious parities ready to tango with the other faction. Then you have a group that was formed in Israel in the mid and or late 1990s I believe that is working to united all religious faiths together to form a one world religion and cleaning house on those who are not complying.

For it is evident by many that something will indeed happen and there will be an attack on the Christian faith and the freedom of the people. For we already the issue with the UN dealing with the first amendment of which people are against, and now the second amendment, including the fourth. On the other side of the spectrum, you are having a decline in mainstream Christianity worldwide, even in Asia, whereas not only it is decreasing there, but groups have gone underground in order to resume their practice of their faith.

Babylon the Great is strong and troubling indeed, but it and just recently something went down somewhere regarding the followers of the harlot – Saudi Arabia and China.

But, there will be a time whereas you, me, the JWs, every other faith in this world will be put to the test, for what is taking place outside of the US regarding Christianity is just a shadow of what is to come and what will take place regarding religion.

That being said, seeing from their theology, they believe that: Babylon the Great, mentioned in the book of Revelation, is the world’s collective body of false religions, which God rejects - Revelation 14:8; 17:5; 18:21. For they see that these religions differ in many respects, in one way or another they all mislead people away from the worship of the true God. - Deuteronomy 4:35. Examples would be teaching that Jesus is Jehovah, or that God is 3 persons (Trinity Doctrine of the Godhead), Immortality of the Soul, Hellfire Torment (for majority of Christians ignore God's shock and emotional reaction to fire torment in the Old Testament), the teaching of scripture and not applying God’s law and or principles, thus moving away of God by means of teachings and or worship, disrespecting Jesus Christ by not taking into account that he is the Head of the Church, and a list of other things. The Jehovah’s Witnesses of course have their reasons for saying such. In continuation of their theology, they believe a world empire can be political, commercial, or religious (There is one no currently) – seeing with that all the Religious Movements is going these days and the Reformation, who is to say they are wrong in this regard, especially with what went down in October 2017, Kairos 2017 and onward, as well as everything that took place after it.

In continuation,  and a quote on their end: The religious identity of Babylon the Great is further confirmed by the statement that she misleads all the nations by means of her “spiritistic practices.” (Revelation 18:23) Since all forms of spiritism are religious and demon-inspired, it is not surprising that the Bible calls Babylon the Great “a dwelling place of demons.” (Revelation 18:2; Deuteronomy 18:10-12) This empire is also described as being actively opposed to true religion, persecuting “prophets” and “holy ones.” (Revelation 18:24) In fact, Babylon the Great has such deep hatred for true religion that she violently persecutes and even murders “the witnesses of Jesus.” (Revelation 17:6) Hence, this woman named Babylon the Great clearly represents the world empire of false religion, which includes all religions that stand in opposition to Jehovah God.

Note: One of these so called groups is the Elijah Interfaith Institute that originated out of Israel, and has gotten the attention of the government and political powers, even some famous people in the US and around the world, one man, Ted Turner of CNN, who paid out big bucks for a on world religion back in the early 2000s.

That being said, the JWs, as to others, have made claim that religion is dying out back in 2015, which is true, for Christianity is decreasing, as mentioned, and in the EU, specifically the UK also, it is going down fast, with Islam surpassing it, and Islam itself has embraced government and political powers in the world, well at least several denominations of Islam.

In the end, JWs have a fight coming their way against the attacks that Babylon will soon throw by means of her power over government, politics and religion, if her power can influence those to ban JWs in a country, who is to say she will affect you also? This is an common enemy, you, me and everyone else here, JW or not will have to face, with some people will end up losing their faith in this fight, for such has already happen to a majority of Middle Eastern Christians, it can happen to you too for the slightly error in combat can result in death, in this regard, a spiritual death.

As for what was said before it was in regards to the Great Commission and its practices done by religious organizations, namely any who came out of the Second and Third Awakening, if I recall I had link sources to that a while back.

Back to the response at hand, 

Every religion teaches they are the one true religion and that there is no other, especially if the religion holds true to monotheistic beliefs. Islam also claims to be the one true religion, as well as others, therefore, the Jehovah’s Witnesses making this claim really isn’t such a big deal, for if the church teaches what is true in their eyes and that it is supported by scripture, they can say this claim. However, what makes a religion true is if they take into account both the Hebrew and Greek Testament of scripture, and they apply 100% of it and do not do anything to break any of the laws of which God had set in motion, nor break scripture, in addition to applying bible examples in their lifestyle and their actions by means of the gospel and a list of other things. As far as I know, based on JW theology, they are more concerned about absolute Truth and sticking to it, hence their teachings and practices, and their evident display of the marks of the church within their community, which is something all Restorationist are known for and have done for decades now – being united in their faith as one church, one in Christ, being one in God, and living stones to one spiritual house.

Making silly claims I see, I stated this time and time again, I do not consider, New Age Christianity, mainstream Christianity, Spiritualists, Trinitarians, The MK, MJs, Satanist, Christain opposition, Gnostics, Dishonest Christians, Anti-Christians, Anti-Religious conspiracy theorist, etc as the body of Christ, for I said it before, and I have said it again, for last I recall I corrected you regarding the body of Christ in a discussion about the church and the stones, so before you make those claims again understand my views of which I had mention clearly before, and where I stand on such views, biblically, as I mentioned before  unless you are wanting to use a typo against me vs my many responses, then by all means you can if that floats your boat.

And no, that is not why they reject it - JWs regarding the body of Christ. The people (opponents, former members, etc) who do not like the practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses consider them to be boring, out of touch (Old Skool), strict, to bible heavy, Bible fanatics, crazy, claiming they are a cult, they make claims the NWT is in error, when the reality is the NWT is literally following the Strong's and the Septuagint, a 4th century manuscript which the NIV, YLT, and the ESV are also following and several other bibles, and or wasting their time, giving themselves a reason to just leave the religion, hence why Atheists, on the other hand, have been making guides and advising people how to get excommunicated from any church, indulging guides on how to leave JWs, some of which can be found via Google, in addition to making outlandish claims against religion and bible bashing (this does not sit well with me and many others). They make claims and assumptions about how wrong they are about Jesus and or about God and so forth, I have spoken to JW opponents, one who was a former JW believes he can heal people with his hands by the grace of God has he claims, only to be shut down by a Muslim who knows the bible, another, who just recently made horrendous claims about the Passover and being Born Again with their own foolish claims of Nicodemus' conversation with the Christ that was shameful to read it through.

JWs clearly know what the body of Christ is, as do most Non-Trinitarians and what it implies regarding the church, as I mention to you before, The Great Commission, of which is part of the Body of Christ for he was the one who gave the command to do such. Another example is being a united people, being one in Christ and of God, just how Jesus’ disciples were one with the Christ and God, as well as the early Christians who were One in Christ and of God. For if they do not adhere to being in the Body of Christ, why is it these people go out of their way to preach the gospel of the scriptures day and night vs. mainstream Christians who stay at home and party every Saturday and become sudden saints on a Sunday? The answer of who is in Christ and who isn't is quite obvious and clearly it isn't a mainstream Christian who is in the right, in reality, this person is in the wrong, sinning knowingly in the face of the Father - quite the disrespect.

Other than that, your assumption of them not being part of the Body of Christ falls short, it would be true if these people didn’t really do what Jesus has taught, if they didn’t follow God’s laws and resort to changing them, if they didn’t follow scripture and or aware if they are part of the New Covenant. But since they do all these things that the bible teaches, they are indeed one and of the Body of Christ, thus being the stones of his temple, which is his body, as do their brothers and sisters who follow the bible 100% and not fool around like other dishonest Christians of the world.

That being said, any Christian and or Christian group who adheres to such things are identity as a True Christian and or True Religion if they do practice the monotheistic beliefs to its core, in addition to that, those that hear from them and how they interpret scripture will come to this conclusion also.

As for excommunication, that is how it works, anything pertaining to interfaith, anything regarding sin, is grounds for excommunication. It is understandable for the view of expelling has not changed with them, nor has it for any church, or temple for that matter compared to those who do not take it seriously.

In my case, if you came to my church and speak of anything interfaith, you would be escorted out the door and told the reason why and the final thing they will tell you is that you have been excommunicated and advise you to repent before coming back to the fold, and they will close the door on you, if you change and or convert to another faith, you can get either excommunicated and or just marked that you are part of another church, some Unitarians tend to be more strict than others on the matter, but excommunication can easily be raised, regardless of the church and or denomination, luckily you aren’t a Jew, for He’rem is far worse than any form of Christian excommunication.

2 hours ago, Witness said:

Under disfellowshipping acts:   Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses: “Shepherd the Flock of God”

This is most definitely regarding man contrived doctrine.  All “old light” and “new light” is man-made doctrine.   

Sir.  Unless you have been a JW for a period of time, you don’t understand what the Watchtower truly teaches or practices.  You also don’t understand that within it, are true, authentic anointed ones, and the only place you will find them.   This is something that most all JWs will tell you.  

You do realize what gets people excommunicated in a church, right? This includes the JWs, again, their very root stems from the Restorationist Movement and the teaching of excommunication has barely changed (inclduing the ability to expel a member), in this regard, from the days they were Bible Students, into the days they name changed to JWs. Excommunication at times may not go by means of someone sinning, but it can be done by actions inside a church and or the church community – be it physical and or verbal. In this case, spreading a teaching that is not of this church, interfaith teachings and spreading of interfaith doctrine, will enable the one spreading such to be excommunicated, in this regard, anything pertaining to interfaith actions, this also applies to those who insult God inside a temple and or the teachings of which a faith practices, inside the very temple and or church it is taught in, for these things are categorized in the Apostasy department of things. Physical should be obvious, enticing and or enabling a fight inside the church will also get you excommunicated.

Therefore, going in or being part of a church, specifically the JW church, sin can get you excommunicated, spread of interfaith teachings and or teachings not of the church, can get you excommunicated, starting and or enticing physical action inside the church can get you excommunicate, or something that has been done before, attempting to debate with church leaders inside the JW church that Jesus is God and or Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh, as well as saying I have found Christ and promptly ignoring the Father, will at times get you excommunicated, especially if you are pushing the envelope. That being said, doing this kind of thing inside a Non-Trinitarian church will get you kicked out swiftly, regardless of the denomination, a plus if the church has security guards, you will not last more than 4 minutes inside the church you choose do take such action in, all in all for sin, you can get expelled, and usually it is address to the church community and or by means of a letter, the worse case scenario, this only happens in a mainstream Christian church, is being not excommunicated, but shot by an angry pastor, for this was done before, a game of chance and risk in a so called church of God.

Therefore, if a Christian, who is part of the church, sins and or does any of those actions, it is not okay, for such influences and encourages others to live however they so please, which will be a problem and pose as a challenge for a church community of members, for the actions of one can defile the many, if such a person is not removed regarding disruption and or tainting the teachings of which is taught in the church.

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Sir.  Unless you have been a JW for a period of time, you don’t understand what the Watchtower truly teaches or practices.  You also don’t understand that within it, are true, authentic anointed ones, and the only place you will find them.   This is something that most all JWs will tell you.  

I have done my research on the group already and I do know them very well in terms of teaching and practices for they fall under the category of Christian Primitivism as do their Non-Trinitarian counterparts that are similar to them. For those who study biblical hermeticals, it is taught that in order to speak with someone of another faith on their level, you have to understand of where they are coming from and why it is their faith is so, hence speaking in dialogue with reasoning and not the blind faith nonsense some Christians, the majority around the world, are doing.

It does not matter if you were a JW and or a current – for the learning of one’s  faith theology to some is important for better understanding of so and so and where they are coming from, in addition to that, discernment comes in to play also to see if so and so is true and or false, an example would be to understand the position of the Gnostic and their belief, for everyone know what they teach is incorrect, hence you go on their level to speak what is true, without tending to insult and faith bashing.

As for the anointed, other churches claim they have chosen ones also, some state that the chosen ones are only the black members of the tribes of Israel, the question is, who among the chosen one is doing God's work and following scripture, and who was indeed God's by God and not assuming he himself was chosen. Other then that, I am well aware of who the JWs are, as I am aware of who my Rock of Salvation is.

So the question still stands, how is their excommunication man-made?

[Space Merchant]

8 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Of course, the modern words such as excommunication, disfellowship do not appear in scripture, however, the phrase from apostle Paul’s letter to Timothy of, “turn away from such as these” have the SAME effect.

Bingo, this is a claim that dishonest and mainstream/new agers claim to ignore the practice of excommunication, therefore, they cherry pick scripture. Just because they do not see the word there, but the practice itself is there.

Excommunication/Expelling is biblical, and if they wish to not practice it, tough cookies for them, it is in the scriptures for that is where the practice, the ability given to the early Christian leaders, originates from.

 

Excommunication is Excommunication

Also I'd like to point out my response to Witness, this is the real enemy who is on the side of the Harlot of which will catch people who are not aware off guard, the opponents of Christians, this includes JW opponents, keep gunning for JWs when they could be targeting these people like the majority of us Christians who are vigilant and aware of what is taking place:

 

The things about Saudi Arabia and the like is a whole other can of worms on its own.

So all of us have to remain vigilant because these guys are on the move.

 

The big man of CNN in early 2000s:

 

[Witness]

31 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I have done my research on the group already and I do know them very well in terms of teaching and practices

I suppose you feel you are the expert of every religion out there, but until you are a member; dedicated to each aspect of the Watchtower, attend all meetings year after year, preach weekly door to door,  you have no leg to stand on.

32 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

So the question still stands, how is their excommunication man-made?

I never said it was man-made, did I.  I said one does not have to sin to be disfellowshipped from the Watchtower.  

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I suppose you feel you are the expert of every religion out there, but until you are a member; dedicated to each aspect of the Watchtower, attend all meetings year after year, preach weekly door to door,  you have no leg to stand on.

This is a weak claim, yet, it has never stopped you from accepting  outlandish Christian conspiracy regarding a Bible Student pastor from a person who was never among the faith to begin with and or has been those who are the opponents of the faith that has inform him/her of, of which you so boldly posted, yet somehow he is the expert when his assumptions and claims bear no fruit and or has merit to truth, for isn't that something, no? I do not think so.

I do not consider myself an expert, but I consider myself as mild Christian who has always been interested in Christian theology, Church History and our Church Fathers, the Bible and what the scriptures teach us, manuscripts, the Hebrew and Greek languages and respects to the language itself, the spreading of the gospel and the like.  Other than that, I am just knowledgeable, and I do not feed myself with conspiracy as most Christians in the mainstream do - hence I have a biblical stance of some, who at least are reasonable and not blind.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I never said it was man-made, did I.  I said one does not have to sin to be disfellowshipped from the Watchtower. 

I am asking you how is their form of excommunication is man-made, for that was what the majority of my response was about previously and now, for you yourself claim previously that people reject the Watchtower's man-made doctrine to which I responded to and posted Revelations verse again, in addition to the old/new light comments from a book for which the JW church elders use, a book of instruction of some sort, regarding excommunication of said members of the JW faith, you linked quotes regarding excommunication and or disfellowship from the faith, for excommunication is of their teaching, their practices and is obvious molded into their doctrine of their faith. I did say that it is as if you are assuming a teaching and or practice is man-made, which also includes excommunication and or expelling, the very practice of it inside the church, also saying to make sure it isn't a biblical practice first before assuming such, pertaining to a portion of your WT quote.

So I ask, how is it their excommunication man-made? Or just to go along with what was said before, what is it in their doctrine that is false and or man-made of which you claim people reject it for?

Note, I already made a response as to why people reject the JW faith, for such is very close to and similar to other churches of which people are wanting to get kicked out of, it is the same common things that people will succumb to if they want out of a church and or faith -  again, that is why, sadly, some people make guides of how to get excommunicate from any church, which I find rather ridiculous.

I do insist though you read up on Albert Barnes regarding expelling members of the church, he was as clear as with what he had to say.

 

In the end, I guess following the bible to the core, for some, is false.

[Witness]

35 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

his is a weak claim, yet, it has never stopped you from accepting  outlandish Christian conspiracy regarding a Bible Student pastor from a person who was never among the faith to begin with and or has been those who are the opponents of the faith that has inform him/her of, of which you so boldly posted, yet somehow he is the expert when his assumptions and claims bear no fruit and or has merit to truth, for isn't that something, no? I do not think so.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.  And you obviously have no idea what I’m talking about. 

My whole comment concerned disfellowshipping individuals who had not sinned.  (You do know the pedophile victims have been threatened with disfellowshipping if they went to the authorities, don’t you?  This is man-made doctrine and has actually been carried out)  Yet, Wt’s version of “sin” and the resulting shunning from it, makes no distinction.  One could be a thief, or take up smoking.  In any case they are treated the same; as spiritually “dead”. 

If you are aware of Watchtower teachings then you know of their history of failed doctrine.  If it has failed it is man-made doctrine.  

We are on a different wave-length.  My focus is on JWs in the Watchtower and how their spiritual life is in jeopardy.  That, I will continue to pursue.  

 

 

 

[Space Merchant]

16 minutes ago, Witness said:

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.  And you obviously have no idea what I’m talking about. 

It was regarding your older threads whereas you posted a video in an attempt to make claims of the Bible Student Pastor. Here you stated I would have to be a JW to understand how they work whereas your source of regarding CTR and the JWs was clearly not an expert, nor a JW, yet you take his word and consider it as something true, but when I speak truth based on my research, suddenly it is insufficient compared to a conspiracy nut who copy videos and information from others. Other then that, when you literally dive into Theology and in Christianity, you really learn things about some known groups, who is teaching what is true and or close to what is true, who is far from the truth, etc.

19 minutes ago, Witness said:

My whole comment concerned disfellowshipping individuals who had not sinned.  (You do know the pedophile victims have been threatened with disfellowshipping if they went to the authorities, don’t you?  This is man-made doctrine and has actually been carried out)  Yet, Wt’s version of “sin” and the resulting shunning from it, makes no distinction.  One could be a thief, or take up smoking.  In any case they are treated the same; as spiritually “dead”. 

Why didn't you say that regarding pedophilia before? If that was the case, the other threads of which that this was address you could have posted there, this threat, whoever, is in total regard to excommunication practices in response to the OP.

I have read those comments yes, alleged and or have made claims of, I looked into it and I think I made mention to that somewhere if I am not mistaken, same claims regarding JWs also include them alleged underground grooming gang and abuse groups, once again, claims, another to where they stated a child was abused in a JW pre-school, as far as I know, Jehovah's Witnesses do not own and or have built in their name, pre-schools. Other then that, this is why I agree with pure facts, and nothing but the facts pertaining to the information, so in this case, I do know, and I do know the facts regarding such and what is true, what alleged and what are just claims, etc. this isn't the first time I am reading about abuse in churches, nor will it be the last.

What is agreeable is pedophilia is indeed a problem, but going on a warpath about dealing with the issue is only going to cause more harm than good, and I being someone who actually helps children,a s to many others, is mentally sane on how to deal with the issue and educate people, both adults and children, on the matter. As I said before, sin, it is a price we pay for our imperfection, and with sin comes desire of the flesh and ill intent to do bad, for free will is both a blessing and a curse. There is a reason why in Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention it is stated that be it a victim and or the parents of the victim, if one adult is not much of a help, tell another, and another, etc. A church tends to be fixated on giving advise and doing somewhat of an effort, but due to religious law they are bounded by, it is not easy for them to go to authorities, hence why they encourage the abused and the family of the abused to go to the police themselves, this is the same case with educational institutions, clubs, YMCA being a big one for a child, a victim, was able to contact authorities on his own, etc. others outside of the these groups will sometimes try to help and or suffer from bystander syndrome/effect, for some tend not to get too involve with anything child abuse, for if history has not shown us in the past couple of years, people end up being killed and or being the killer, thus becoming an avenger of blood - literally.

The people in today's society is aware of religious law and how the churches tend to react to child abuse, be it if they are educated on the problem or not. To condemn a religion for a problem they suffer from, is like those condemning the police for brutality and or the military for arming allies to leave Christians for dead and a list of other things. I myself can say upfront, the Unitarian faith in some of its denominations also has a few bad apples that have been dealt with, it will not stop me from following the faith, and in regards to our counterparts, it will not stop them from following the faith either, for anyone who did the crime is totally an enemy of which they feel sorry for due to the demon that has attached itself on to such abusers at birth, the psychological problem known as pedophilia. There actions are indeed vile for what they do to children, earning the trust of their family and community only to get closer and abuse them, at the same time, these people indeed have problems, and such problems only God can correct when he rids the world of wickedness.

Other then that by means of church discipline and religious law, a church is obligated to, on their part, commit to internal investigation of things, and they themselves would have to be obedient to the laws of the law, but should the laws of the land hinder the church rules and or regulations, civil disobedience, of which Apostle Paul was a fan of, will eventually come into play if man's law attempts to change and or overwrite God's law. Read up on Church Discipline and Religious Law so you see what as to why some religions/faiths are bounded by such.

As what was mention to John, I agree with the final reports of ARC and the educating of persons of child abuse, so one can save at least a child and or identifying the signs, for pedophilia main goal is earning trust, which is the root of abuse -  I was this close to posting PSA information to this regard to John however.

Also no, religious law is what tends to hold such religions back, this is very common in several religions, including JWs, but they do make an effort to put publications of child abuse in their articles, the question is, who is applying them and who isn't. The "because it will never happen to my child" mentality is intertwined with majority of folks around the world, and an example of that is on full display regarding the, a bit off-topic, Florida School Shooting an the whole gun control thing. This mentality has to be put to end like the stranger danger one, we have to educate our kids and the adults on such matter, including child abuse to increase prevention and on the parents part, they should always be around their children, for abusers are very watchful of that, one of the signs.

43 minutes ago, Witness said:

Yet, Wt’s version of “sin” and the resulting shunning from it, makes no distinction.  One could be a thief, or take up smoking.  In any case they are treated the same; as spiritually “dead”. 

There is no other version of sin, as you just stated. Sin is sin just as an orange is an orange, there is nothing different about it, for it is what it is. Excommunication begets shunning command thus the binding and loosening of the church regarding the ability of the church leader(s) to remove someone. For Jesus had put this in motion and Paul and the others had practiced it.

And I have made mention to Spiritual Death already, briefly.

I will say it again, Spiritual Death is indeed a real thing, one cannot think of it as something false.

It has a huge meaning and is connected to Sinning and Expelling, as well and it is more than just a separation from God by means of sin and or action of one who puts him/herself in said position.

 

Epistle of Ephesians - the Church, which is the Body of Christ

Ephesians 4:8

They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

Note: Ephesians 4:17–32 is a valuable, highly practical explanation of how to live out a Christian life. Paul notes the difference between a life wallowing under the power of sin, as opposed to a life thriving in the power of Christ. Christians are called on to ''put away'' the things which entangle unbelievers. This includes sins such as malice, slander, commotion, and bitterness. Instead, we should demonstrate a Christ-like attitude of love and forgiveness.

And yes, one can be a thief and take up smoking, and what does that get them? One has to abandon such practices and be part of Christ and be part of God. These things will often get you warning, but to some it is very close to getting expelled, however, any who is knowledge in helping someone to quit their errors so that he or she can return to the church, that counsel is open for those who accept and to those who are truly repentant, but should he or she chose to continue down that route, even ignoring counsel despite what they are doing is wrong an they know it, obviously the spirituality will not be there, thus being spiritual dead, and knowingly sinning in front of God and not heeding any counsel from a member of the church and or a reveal who is of the church, this is the route of which the person chooses, for God will know one has made the effort vs. one who does nothing at all regarding spiritual death.

For sin can cause one to be spiritually weaken and or dead, however, o be born and not being isolated from God, his Kingdom and his Spoken Word reverses Spiritual death, of which includes serious repentance, and building of faith if one sins and or is excommunicated, and or allowing him or herself to be alienated from God, of which the first parent Adam has done in the Garden of Eden.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

If you are aware of Watchtower teachings then you know of their history of failed doctrine.  If it has failed it is man-made doctrine.

Care to explain? But so called failed doctrines, assuming you are getting at the 1914 date, was addressed before and I remember saying of whom, both existing and non-existing groups who agreed on the Bible Students regarding things such as 1914, for the JWs believed that the year is of which Jesus reign as King and shortly after, Satan the Devil was cast out - the other groups agreed due to the events that took place by means of violence, war, outbreak and earthquakes that took place on that year and onward, things getting increasingly worse. It would have been a failed teaching if none of the craziness unfolded on that year, but things did happen - it would have been quite a surprised if it was a lucky guess though, because if it was, that was a really, really good guess on that year.

Other then that, I am aware and I adhere to factual information, not one-sided claims and conspiracy, and have made mention to such before, even posting chart of earthquakes that took place in that year, as well as the growing epidemic, I would have address the war, but someone had made mention to it at the time already, so I stuck to the other two known things, including the list of groups that also believed that year to be true to what happen.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

We are on a different wave-length.  My focus is on JWs in the Watchtower and how their spiritual life is in jeopardy.  That, I will continue to pursue.  

I do not see how their spiritual life is in danger, if anything, a JW hate parade will cause more harm than good, for there has been examples of this in the past, like last year, we have Warwick and NJ people defending JWs from JW opponents, effectively halting their advance in a park, even a gay man who spoke of changing his ways in his video, defended JWs, to which the JW opponents attacked him for it and saying he is better off dead, a disgruntled man who attacked JW opponents for making a video of his girlfriend who became a JW, to which the JW opponents attacked him for defending someone he loves. One girl in particular was very crazy, wishing death to JWs during the Russian ban situation, and one of the Russian commentors mention the UK bombing, to which the girl gloried it and said, and I quote : I WANT BLOODSHED ON EARTH (in all caps). Next we have opponents accusing and spreading lies that the JWs are going to have all 8 million+ members drink poison like the Jim Jones situation and they had people believe this among the JW opponent community, others being cool with a hate crime stabbing, and knowing the UK, most Hate crime stabbings are influenced by social media and or the internet which was addressed by Teresa May due to knifing attacks, and only one group in the UK tends to bad mouth JWs every chance they get, those who are against them. The list goes on, this group out of all faiths, they is more negativity towards JWs by opponents and conspiracy nuts on the web and it only pushes the claim of JWs being right to the point it is being joked about how they are right about holidays and the like. Lastly, whenever it is Passover and or memorial of which they celebrate the Christ, no Passover has ever had any interruptions and or disruptions but the JWs only, for those who do this, no matter what they have been excommunicated for, that is unacceptable, and an insult in the face of God for a day of such is greatly important.

But tell me, how is this helping a group who is bible strict and strict on worshiping God and following Jesus? How is "saving" JWs working out when you follow a crowd that wants to literally destroy them by any means necessary, even at times lying an making false claims, or in support of the Russia ban (those who accept the Russian ban not realizing Babylon's hand in it), and wouldn't mind taking down all of Christianity in order to do it, as the decline continues? It would be no surprise if they pulled a Wilkes, thus putting you and every Christian in temporary out of disdain for a sole group.

No matter how much you throw at the Watchtower, it will not hurt them, just like how no one can hurt Islam. What it is that is going to prove far devastating for you is the fact that whatever the JWs are pushing, others are adhering to it, you'd be surprised of how people view holidays now, death, hell torment doctrine (aka Molech worship), abortion, Jesus having a God and Father, etc. Other then that, they are among the Christian minorities who are still growing even while Christianity is on the decline.

But I do not think you can really do much, especially when you tried to say their Interlinear is incorrect, when you do not realize they were using an accurate manuscript thus making them right, or mixing verses that do not cross-reference with each other which proves your level of hermeneutics, thinking current and New Jerusalem is the same when they are not, or the bit about Yahweh being the Rock of Salvation and comparing it to the rock in the New Testament when the reality is Rock in the Old and New Testament do not relate to each other regarding refugee and or salvation regarding God the Father, believing their founding pastor was a Mason when there is no Registry information and or Lodge info present and even Masons, who were opponents of this man stated this man was not one of them, etc.

You yourself have to be bible strict and teach people accurately, for if you don't, the smallest of error you speak can and will mislead masses, and in regards to excommunication, mixing Current and New Jerusalem,  and or any outlandish interfaith teachings or erroneous teachings, can get you excommunicated in some churches if they know their stuff and can identify what you are spreading among their community.

That being said, and I said this before, there is a strong biblical reason as to why some real Christians do not mess with Jehovah's Witnesses, instead, we tend to be not only understanding of them, but remain neutral with them, in addition to still considering them as our brothers and sisters, for as some say, brothers of the neighboring tribe, thus we stay in our own lane and not try to them off in regards to bashing their theology. One example of a neutral Christian, a guy I am knowledgeable of named Brother Kel, is is clearly not a fan of organized religion, however, he speaks on what is true and even defends what the bible says based on the teachings, as well as being advanced in Textual Criticism and exposing the lies of Trinitarian Christians regarding the bible/Textus Receptus, JC.

For the people know the JWs, they know their teachings, and you have even the non-religious going out of their way to put together information and facts of what this group actually believes compared to those twisting their teachings i.e. claims:

opponents say JWs teach the world was going to end in 1914  and everyone who is not a JW will die, as they claim, but facts shows us that the JWs believe Jesus became King and Satan was thrown out in 1914 and that only the wicked will perish and or will be in front of the white throne of judgement while the righteous an the meek will inherit the earth (new creation by means of the first fruits), things of that nature.

The more that people speak on JWs, the more people will do the research, and they will find out what was true and what was not true, hence why non-JWs/non-Christians tend to be on the attack, especially if they themselves have family who are JWs. They also know about Child Abuse, and are aware of how to educate such persons, how to prevent it, how to see the signs, etc, for everyone knows child abuse has entered all institutions and is a problem, even to the JWs, for the world does not live in a box like the JW opponents do and us on the outside know there are smarter ways of dealing with such problems and we are crazy on trying to dismantle a group for its imperfections, for it we were like that, we would destroy the laws, the schools,etc, therefore, we are not monstrous in action or crazy for doing negative things for justice, we stick to positive action.

If you want to help and save people, you should be going for those who are literally twisting scripture, like those who twist the bible in order to promote sexual orientation, those who accept things and trying to normalize bad things, and or same-sex marriage, to name a few, for you are doing better justice there, only if you 100% adhere to scripture and being knowledgeable about it by means of interpretation and reasoning.

Other then that, I have been around the block, so clearly I am aware of many things, and you focusing on the JWs, good luck with that, for if you can't tell the difference in some things in scripture, Christology, and or manuscripts, it will not get you very far - for there are better things to do with time, for every second that passes you cannot get back.

As I said about people now seeing the viewpoint of a Non-Trinitarian faith, specifically JWs, did you see the recent news about the Pope? Despite having strong dislike for Pope Francis, for he was the cause of what Christians had been dealing with in the Middle East, I find his quite interesting, and this has sparked a lot of debate so far regarding hell fire.: http://www.pulse.ng/communities/religion/what-pope-francis-jehovahs-witnesses-muslims-say-about-hell-id8187144.html

But bear in mind, this man is still a threat, and will be the common threat for everyone on this forum and everyone who is not part of the OWR, Babylon the Great - The EII. As they say, the protest is not over.