Governing body (self) praise and (self) deceiving on global level

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote "as long as we respect the doctrines promoted by the the Governing Body. "

Worship of the Governing Body then ?

Not at all. Respecting the teaching of older men in the congregation is a longstanding theme in the Christian Scriptures.

• (1 Thessalonians 5:12, 13) . . .Now we request you, brothers, to show respect for those who are working hard among you and presiding over you in the Lord and admonishing you; 13 and to give them extraordinary consideration in love because of their work.. . .
• (3 John 9, 10) 9 I wrote something to the congregation, but Di·otʹre·phes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not accept anything from us with respect. 10 That is why if I come, I will call attention to the works he is doing in spreading malicious talk about us.. . .
• (1 Timothy 5:17) 17 Let the elders who preside in a fine way be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching.

Honor is not worship.

• (Romans 12:10) 10 In brotherly love have tender affection for one another. In showing honor to one another, take the lead.

• (1 Peter 2:17) 17 Honor men of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, honor the king.

• (1 Peter 3:7) . . .Assign them honor as to a weaker vessel, the feminine one, since they are also heirs with you of the undeserved favor of life, . . .

• (1 Timothy 5:3) . . .Give consideration to [Greek, "honor"] widows who are truly widows.

 

This idea of "double honor" is scriptural and has nothing to do with worship.

 

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I wonder how many years the Pope has spent in Bible study ? Does that make him worthy of double honour then ? 

Sure! If we think he is "presiding in a fine way" or presiding over us "in the Lord." (For me, he is not, although I respect the fact that he appears to be presiding in some ways that are better than previous Popes.) There is nothing wrong with showing respect toward the Pope. He is one of those "men of all sorts." It's not worship. But again we consider the type of honor we show based on how their faith has turned out (Heb 11), whether they are related to us in the faith, whether their position makes them a "superior authority." (For many years, historically, Christians in certain countries would have had to consider the Pope a kind of "king." Note the end of 1 Peter 2:17, above.)

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

There are rules in the JW Org, basically keep your mouth shut unless you are praising the GB and the Org.

This is not true. We can choose the ideas that encourage us and build us up, and keep talking about these. No one forces us to accept what our conscience won't allow. If we focus on what we agree with, the rest of the congregation is built up. We need not focus on those ideas we don't agree with. Personally, I think it's important to communicate our questions and concerns about questionable teachings, too. But this is not up-building in the congregational setting. It's not the purpose of the meetings.

• (Philippians 4:8, 9) 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. 9 The things that you learned as well as accepted and heard and saw in connection with me, practice these, and the God of peace will be with you.

• (Hebrews 10:23-25) . . .. 24 And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.

I believe there is a time and place for everything, and even a time to tear down, rather than build up. A time to speak and a time keep silent:

• (Ecclesiastes 3:1-7) 3 For everything there is an appointed time, . . .  a time to plant and a time to uproot what was planted; 3 . . . a time to break down and a time to build; . . .  5 a time to throw stones away and a time to bring stones together; . . . 6 a time to seek and a time to give up as lost; a time to keep and a time to throw away; 7 a time to rip apart and a time to sew together; a time to keep quiet and a time to speak;
• (Matthew 9:16, 17) 16 Nobody sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old outer garment, for the new piece pulls away from the garment and the tear becomes worse. 17 Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins. If they do, then the wineskins burst and the wine spills out and the wineskins are ruined. But people put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

I've used this particular forum as a place, outside the congregation, for the time and place to speak up about things I have sought, and things I have given up on. It's a place to discuss whether certain deeply entrenched things should be thrown out, preserved, or whether they should just be patched up.

(Edited to add: If JW.ORG had a place for comments it would be a mess, but I look forward to a time when this is possible in some way. In the meantime, I'll try to refine and question my own beliefs here or another place where I might find persons willing to discuss questionable issues.)

[Witness]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

We need not focus on those ideas we don't agree with. Personally, I think it's important to communicate our questions and concerns about questionable teachings, too. But this is not up-building in the congregational setting. It's not the purpose of the meetings.

No, it’s not the purpose of those meetings, but why allow an obvious lie to be propagated?  An up-building congregational setting in the apostle’s time was centered on Christ’s teachings, not the teachings of men.  Where in the Bible does it say we must obey doctrines outside of Christ’s teachings?  2 Pet 2:2   We are to reject those ideas we see as blatantly wrong; and if they continue to add up, there’s something askew with the big picture – the organization and its existence.  Gal 5:7; Rom 1:25; 2 Cor 11:3

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I've used this particular forum as a place, outside the congregation, for the time and place to speak up about things I have sought, and things I have given up on. It's a place to discuss whether certain deeply entrenched things should be thrown out, preserved, or whether they should just be patched up.

Yes, and I have agreed with you on some things; yet, if you did this in the congregation you would become a target, someone to watch.  Each person has a heart and a conscience that God expect us to exercise in righteousness.   We are not to kowtow to men and their ideals. Christ never did, the apostles never did.  They are our examples.    We are to follow Christ’s teachings as God expects us to.  We are to support God’s Son, not a GB who in their apparent pious way, are actually false “christs”.  Matt 24:24  

If we allow ourselves to be manipulated by doctrine of men, we are essentially their slaves.  1 Cor 7:23; 1 Thess 2:4; Rom 6:16

They have instilled the fear (you can’t see it) in JWs, that to obey God and Christ, it must be done through the organization.  There is no valid scriptural reason for this.    If it is challenged by someone in the organization, that one can be disfellowshipped.   Would God bless an organization that throws out HIs children who care to serve Him, with their whole heart, mind and soul, instead of for and through a material corporation?  Mark 12:29-31  Would God bless a "preaching work" that claims it leads people to salvation, when He only approved HIs Son as our salvation?  Acts 4:12  Wouldn't you say that by following these cited scriptures the person is following God's decrees?

If one truly desires to serve the Father and Jesus, why would this be a confusing issue?  Where is confidence that Holy Spirit can draw out and inspire those whom He needs to get the work done?    Only men feel they need to control God's work and how it's accomplished.   He, on the other hand, is fully in control of His "preaching work" and to whom must hear the message.  Although it is claimed that God controls the organization,  it is as if God really has no power or control, in the eyes of all in the organization.  Zech 4:6; Matt 10:23  

He chooses where his Spirit is directed.  Obviously, men who teach out of their own resources would not be blessed by God.  They give no  scriptural support to the claim that God and Christ are in control of the organization.  Their validity is all based on elemental calculations, and what the eye can see.  

"Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.  If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.  He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him."   John 7:16-18

Should it be any different today among anointed "teachers" who purport to follow Christ?

 

 

 

[FelixCA]

16 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Matthew 5 v 48.  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NWT)

King James Version.  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 

Perfection can possibly mean different things to different people, especially to God. 

Adam was created perfect, but he could not fly. If he had jumped off a mountain and tried he would have been in trouble. Does that mean he was not perfect ? I don't think so.  I think being perfect means being perfect for a specific job. 

Then you would agree there is a need to comprehend what is before us. Especially when it relates to definitions of particular words.

This prevents us from thinking we can be perfect instead, try to imitate perfection by following in Jesus footsteps. Do you honestly believe you are perfect according to the word, perfection? Even if we comply with every instruction given by Jesus and the commandments given by Jah can we remove our sinful state?

This can be illustrated by the conduct here of a failure to meet Christ standards of perfection. Ephesians 4:22-32

This is why Jah continues to give us a chance to redeem ourselves from a sinful state. Meaning as imperfect humans. Romans 5:8

What is one of the prerequisites to maintain that appearance of sinless state, if not with obedience?

[FelixCA]

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What is essence of my little/short essay is to highlight main question: 

WHO can be inspired, guided, motivated to speak and act under The God's Spirit influence? 

Let’s ask the question.

How would you go about teaching and inspiring over eight million witnesses and about twenty million interested parties? Remember, there are language barriers and scriptural interpretation to consider. Have you ever run a corporation? You place your self above all the anointed. Can you explain how Jah gave you this higher spirit?

[Srecko Sostar]

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Personally, I think it's important to communicate our questions and concerns about questionable teachings, too. But this is not up-building in the congregational setting. It's not the purpose of the meetings.

If we take in consideration how "voice" of Spirit beside His powerful expressions have other side too, and that is that Spirit is very sensible, soft, coming to human individuals if we allow Him to come. Spirit is (i think) not pushy, demanding, Spirit not love to force other to accepting what He want, but He love our free will and He love to see our give Welcome to Him. To Spirit is easier to approach to us, if in us there is no noise, that kind of noise because of what, we can not hear his quiet and soft voice, call: "Come!, Hear Me!"... or else. But as i express myself in previous comments, Spirit can go wherever He want to go, when ever He want, and to "visit" all people no matter what they are in particular time. Even if you are in mess He can come to you. 

I see sort of "technical problem and spiritual problem" when you mentioned "purpose of meetings" in JW community. Program of meetings are in sphere of Uniformity under common believes how worldwide Unity depends on Same Program for All. This is, i think, one moment when Human Program makes barrier for Free Spirit to come. (two things i have in mind with Free Spirit, and that is Holy Spirit and your Personal Spirit). 

I am very sure how all of you (us) feel the need for something different when come to meeting. For example, need to sit in peace and silence and thinking about own stuff, or just looking around on other people and to observe, to notice and be perceptive about surrounding ..... But when things are ordered in advance, from day to day, week to week, your current needs, feelings and state of mind can not be satisfied. You became sort of Robot with idea how you must do this or that because other ask you that, it is Expected from you.  Just for little illustration. :))  

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I've used this particular forum as a place, outside the congregation, for the time and place to speak up about things I have sought, and things I have given up on. It's a place to discuss whether certain deeply entrenched things should be thrown out, preserved, or whether they should just be patched up.

(Edited to add: If JW.ORG had a place for comments it would be a mess, but I look forward to a time when this is possible in some way. In the meantime, I'll try to refine and question my own beliefs here or another place where I might find persons willing to discuss questionable issues.)

This is why i am pleased and have honor to have conversation with few of you here :) 

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

4 hours ago, FelixCA said:

Then you would agree there is a need to comprehend what is before us. Especially when it relates to definitions of particular words.

 

 

This prevents us from thinking we can be perfect instead, try to imitate perfection by following in Jesus footsteps. Do you honestly believe you are perfect according to the word, perfection? Even if we comply with every instruction given by Jesus and the commandments given by Jah can we remove our sinful state?

This can be illustrated by the conduct here of a failure to meet Christ standards of perfection. Ephesians 4:22-32

This is why Jah continues to give us a chance to redeem ourselves from a sinful state. Meaning as imperfect humans. Romans 5:8

What is one of the prerequisites to maintain that appearance of sinless state, if not with obedience?

 

Of course you are aware that the word accordingly was put in by the GB or writing dept of W/t are't you ?

Hence i gave you the King James version also. 

The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek is this :-

"You shall be therefore you perfect as the Father of you the heavenly perfect is."

That is directly from the Greek hence seems strange BUT no mention of the word ACCORDINGLY.

The GB make it up as they go along. 

And this perfection is expected of the Anointed not of the earthly class. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider In my opinion that is the reason the Tuesday evening group study was stopped. Because bros and sis were talking amongst themselves about the things that the GB were doing wrong. 

The GB nor the elders had the control over the group studies because after the study the people there would have tea and cake etc, and sit down and chat. The Elders did not have control over the conversations, the questions asked, the details given. Yes there was one elder in each group but he could not control the whole group. 

The GB didn't like that around 20 or more congregants could have group discussions which the GB did not control. 

I believe there were similar problems in Bethels where bros would gather together for personal group studies without the control of an elder. The GB are frightened, that much is obvious.   

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Of course you are aware that the word accordingly was put in by the GB or writing dept of W/t are't you ?

i just went to my Kingdom Interlinear Translation  

Copyright 1985

by WTBTS of Pennsylvania and IBSA

800 000 copies. 

Publishers:  WTBTS of New York inc. and IBSA Brooklyn

Made in USA

IN Greek text not existing word "accordingly"

[FelixCA]

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

f course you are aware that the word accordingly was put in by the GB or writing dept of W/t are't you ?

Then you cannot appreciate what scripture is actually relating to us mortals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:48

If you wish to bring in scriptural understanding with the old Greek Classic, versus the Koine Greek, if you have experience with linguistics, then, by all means, let’s discuss this matter through intellectual understanding. From the textus receptus, Latin Vulgate, or whatever codex you wish to use. Even the Westcott and Hort.  Since Srecko failed to reply on how his wisdom is above all others, then I can only stipulate this is your idea also.

Logic, as seen through the definition, brings in many afterthoughts. The word perfection is not intended as you describe it. If we do, it loses all credibility to what is intended through scripture. This is a fundamental flaw in understanding. We can only imitate perfection, not become it until after Armageddon.

To an extent, you and Srecko have become what the post is.

[Srecko Sostar]

11 hours ago, FelixCA said:

Let’s ask the question.

 

How would you go about teaching and inspiring over eight million witnesses and about twenty million interested parties? Remember, there are language barriers and scriptural interpretation to consider. Have you ever run a corporation? You place your self above all the anointed. Can you explain how Jah gave you this higher spirit?

 

Teaching and inspiring, about this issue, is job for Spirit, not for me to care about. Because Word we talking about aka Bible aka God's and Jesus's teaching are not came in existence with my birth day.

If you believe in Bible reports about Power of Spirit who made that people speaking various languages and in that way give testimony about God, then you can put your trust in this same Spirit.

This Spirit, i suppose, is able to overcome language barriers, you talking about,  because this same Spirit was causing language barriers in humankind before many centuries, according to Bible report.  

People run Corporations (GB run WTJWorg inc.) but I am not sure that Holy Spirit have interest to run any Human Corporation. I would rather be ready to believe how Holy Spirit wish to run human hearts.  

By such influence, on people's hearts .... all your doubts can be explained.    :))

[JOHN BUTLER]

42 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

Then you cannot appreciate what scripture is actually relating to us mortals.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:48

If you wish to bring in scriptural understanding with the old Greek Classic, versus the Koine Greek, if you have experience with linguistics, then, by all means, let’s discuss this matter through intellectual understanding. From the textus receptus, Latin Vulgate, or whatever codex you wish to use. Even the Westcott and Hort.  Since Srecko failed to reply on how his wisdom is above all others, then I can only stipulate this is your idea also.

 

Logic, as seen through the definition, brings in many afterthoughts. The word perfection is not intended as you describe it. If we do, it loses all credibility to what is intended through scripture. This is a fundamental flaw in understanding. We can only imitate perfection, not become it until after Armageddon.

 

 

To an extent, you and Srecko have become what the post is.

 

I won't be pathetic enough (unlike some) to start calling you names or retaliate to your last comment.

The scripture i quoted still stands. It is from God's word and  accordingly does not appear in it. 

In my opinion the scriptures were written only for the Anointed to FULLY understand. Yes of course we of the earthly class can understand much of it, but not all and not fully. 

The TRUE Anointed obviously have a much closer relationship with God and with Jesus Christ. 

Hence the scripture 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew', spiritual Jew of course. The Anointed

But the whole point in question is, are the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses 'perfect' ? That is, perfect in the way that Jesus meant in that scripture. And the answer has to be NO. As can be seen by their actions and words.

You may say it's not my place to judge, but we have to judge to know whom we should follow. 

I think that brings us back on topic. The GB pretending to be things they are not.

1. They cannot be Anointed          2. They cannot be the Faithful and discreet slave. 

[FelixCA]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Teaching and inspiring, about this issue, is job for Spirit, not for me to care about.

Then I can only say, what are you doing here? Scripture is meant for those that follow Christ, not become retaliatory to let off steam. If you have insight about scripture with a better interpretation, then, by all means, let’s hear it. This idea of criticism by you and Bultler has brought nothing but failures in understanding. We are all adults. But there is a difference between being a human grownup, and being a spiritual child that matured. Let’s get off meaningless criticism and concentrate in fundamental in Bible truth if you wish to learn. If not, then there is no need for further discussion.