The French Speaking Baptist Church of Stratford is now located in the former Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Hall at 494 Milford Point Road.

[Witness]

8 hours ago, Anna said:

Something is only as good as what it is on the inside.  Any structure has value to the Witnesses when it is used for pure worship. I know an old church that was converted to a KH. So it's not about the building, but about what goes on on the inside. Once a building stops being used for the purpose it was built for and is put on the market, it becomes immaterial to the JWs what or who occupies it after that. This proves there is no idolatry or placing of spiritual value on the building itself.

A very 'practical' viewpoint.  As a young Catholic, I would set up a shrine to  the "Virgin Mary" in my bedroom for the month of May.  I didn't think much of the statue until I dressed up the temporary shrine with bouquets of flowers and anything else I could think of that would make it appealing.  I prayed to Mary in front of that statue...just for the one month.  The rest of the year, Mary was put on the book shelf and left there.  There is no doubt in my mind that any JW would believe I was committing idolatry, which I was.

Definition of “shrine”:

A shrine is a place of worship which is associated with a particular holy person or object.

Shrine comes from the Latin scrinium meaning "case or box for keeping papers." Think of a shrine as a niche or case in which the spirit of someone special is kept. It could be a statue or some other form of commemoration to either a person or a relic. A shrine can be as small as a tiny mantel in your house or it can be as massive as a building commemorating, or shrining, a sacred person. (vocabulary.com)

 

Armenian Branch Dedication Video

David Splane:

“Is it your desire to dedicate the Branch facility, the assembly hall and the school facility to Jehovah today?”  (met with applause)

You say this isn’t idolatry?

wp16 No. 2 p. 10:

“Originally the word “shrine” represented a case that held sacred relics. The meaning has since broadened; it now refers to a place considered sacred, religiously or otherwise. Religious shrines are dedicated to the worship of a deity or the veneration of a “holy” person.”

“Many of the world’s major religions have shrines, and countless millions of people visit them. In professed Christian lands, there are numerous churches and shrines dedicated to Jesus, Mary, and the saints.”

Is it not a shrine if it is dedicated to “Jehovah”?  Is it not a shrine if it is called a kingdom hall or assembly hall?

“How, then, should Christians view pilgrimages to and worship at shrines? (video - “The dedication week started off with a welcome night, where many traveled long distances to attend.  And some had not seen each other for a long time”)

Taking into account Jesus’ command that true worshippers worship God with spirit and truth, it is clear that worship rendered at any shrine or sacred place has no special value to our heavenly Father. Additionally, the Bible tells us how God views the veneration of idols in worship. It says: “Flee from idolatry” and “guard yourselves from idols.” (1 Corinthians 10:14; 1 John 5:21) Therefore, a true Christian would not worship at any place that is viewed as holy in itself or one that encourages idolatry. Thus, on account of the very nature of shrines, true Christians refrain from worshipping at them.”

Every time a building is ‘dedicated to Jehovah’; and its finished product is spoken as bringing honor to "Jehovah”, idolatry is encouraged; even if at a later point in time, the building is sold.  This building and discarding of dedicated kingdom halls, assembly halls, and Bethels, reminds me of Isa 44:9-20  Yet, it is not a new idea with the organization, since it also is “worshiped”. Rev 13:4,8  To verify this, JW believe salvation is not possible without it.  We worship God who is our salvation.  Christ also deserves our worship, since “there is no other name under heaven” by which we must be saved.  Acts 4:12; Rev 5:13,14

 But an organization as man’s salvation?  Built in Satan’s realm?   Any bit of truth, such as stated above in the article, is not put into practice by your leaders. (like child abuse)

2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."  Matt 23:2,3

 

All who make idols are nothing,
    and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
    they are ignorant, to their own shame.
¹⁰ Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
    which can profit nothing?
¹¹ People who do that will be put to shame;
    such craftsmen are only human beings.
Let them all come together and take their stand;
    they will be brought down to terror and shame.

¹² The blacksmith takes a tool
    and works with it in the coals;
he shapes an idol with hammers,
    he forges it with the might of his arm.
He gets hungry and loses his strength;
    he drinks no water and grows faint.
¹³ The carpenter measures with a line
    and makes an outline with a marker;
he roughs it out with chisels
    and marks it with compasses.
He shapes it in human form,
    human form in all its glory,
    that it may dwell in a shrine.
¹⁴ He cut down cedars,
    or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
    or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.
¹⁵ It is used as fuel for burning;
    some of it he takes and warms himself,
    he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
But he also fashions a god and worships it;
    he makes an idol and bows down to it.
¹⁶ Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
    over it he prepares his meal,
    he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
    “Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.”
¹⁷ From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
    he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
    “Save me! You are my god!”
¹⁸ They know nothing, they understand nothing;
    their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
    and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
¹⁹ No one stops to think,
    no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,
“Half of it I used for fuel;
    I even baked bread over its coals,
    I roasted meat and I ate.
Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?
    Shall I bow down to a block of wood?”
²⁰ Such a person feeds on ashes; a deluded heart misleads him;
    he cannot save himself, or say,
    “Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?”

 

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, Anna said:

Now if the direction proved wrong, then sure, we can blame the GB for the bad outcome, but it was STILL our choice and we have to get up and move on.

 

8 hours ago, Anna said:

It's a little bit more complex than that.

Yes Anna, it is always little bit more complex than we can say at a moment :))

If JW members dare to blame GB for wrong directions, they doing that in own head and thoughts perhaps shared with one or two trustful JW friends, not in comment at meetings.

On other hand, we all can testimony how GB not wish to take any blame for wrong instructions, but to spread "responsibility" on all who, supposedly, act in too much zeal for worship or how they misunderstand  some article and public talk. :)) 

It is complex, for sure. One of reason for that is Sort of Culture developed in Society/Organization (not unique problem in WT only but in other organizations too) how Higher Hierarchical Class is less "guilty" because God "appointed" them on/to position of lead and guide. 

[Witness]

17 hours ago, Anna said:

It always seems to me that when people try to hold the GB responsible for their choices in life, its like they forget that no one actually MADE them do anything. That it was the persons personal conviction, that whatever the direction the GB gave was correct, and therefor they followed it. We have to make the choice whether to follow it or not. Now if the direction proved wrong, then sure, we can blame the GB for the bad outcome, but it was STILL our choice and we have to get up and move on.

It if was just that easy.  Experience by those who do so, will say that no one gets up and moves on without being shunned or disfellowshipped for doing so.  So, although no one actually made an individual do anything, it is stipulated that any who are independent of GB direction, are "apostate"; especially if it is expressed verbally.  

But you know these things already.  

 

[Anna]

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

we all can testimony how GB not wish to take any blame for wrong instructions, but to spread "responsibility" on all who, supposedly, act in too much zeal for worship or how they misunderstand  some article and public talk. :)) 

Yes, it does appear like that sometimes. Perhaps though it really IS due to misunderstanding 😀. It can happen so easily, especially with the written word. This is why it's always better to call someone, rather than text 🙂.

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

One of reason for that is Sort of Culture developed in Society/Organization (not unique problem in WT only but in other organizations too) how Higher Hierarchical Class is less "guilty" because God "appointed" them on/to position of lead and guide. 

But if you know the Bible, then you believe the opposite: "Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him"   (Luke 12: 47-48) (This scripture is actually talking about the Faithful and discreet slave/GB).

[Anna]

8 minutes ago, Witness said:

 Experience by those who do so, will say that no one gets up and moves on without being shunned or disfellowshipped for doing so.  

That's because they DON'T just get up and move on.

[Witness]

56 minutes ago, Anna said:

That's because they DON'T just get up and move on.

In other words, you recognize that speaking up against the GB’s mistakes can cause one to be shunned; however, no one can walk away, not even quietly without being shunned.  I can count four individuals close by, who are not disfellowshipped but are treated as such, just for walking away.    You also know these things.

A true Christian who follows the path of Christ, would speak up for truth and expose error, right?  Isn’t that the emphasis the organization takes when it comes to “christendom”?  Why should upholding truth  stop just because eight uninspired men say they represent Christ?  

Matt 24:24  Even the anointed/"elect" are stumbled by the end time, "false christs".  John 16:2; Rev 13:11,15  

Christ was not a coward; following in his footsteps requires speaking out for his truth., not swallowing lies or just walking away.   Matt 5:10,11

Eph 6:12

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

This is why it's always better to call someone, rather than text 🙂.

Perhaps it will be a little expensive to call few of you across the Ocean :)) .... and with my slow mind and weak English .... i think i will stay on text :)))))

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

But if you know the Bible, then you believe the opposite:

Hope dies last :))

[JW Insider]

12 hours ago, Anna said:

(Luke 12: 47-48) (This scripture is actually talking about the Faithful and discreet slave/GB).

(Luke 12:41, 42) . . .Then Peter said: “Lord, are you telling this illustration just to us or also to everyone?” 42 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?

Interesting. So when Peter asked Jesus, "Are you telling this illustration just to us or also to everyone?" Jesus should have answered, "NEITHER!" It's not to any of you apostles or disciples, because you'll be long dead by the time I return, and it's not to "everyone" either, because it's only going to apply to about two or three dozen people who are around between 1919 and, let's say, 100-and-some-odd years after that date.

[Dotlizhihii Tlenaai]

On 9/10/2019 at 4:11 PM, Ray Devereaux said:

You may wish to start with the understanding, Christ is the church. Is the Body of Christ a building? Did Jesus not use the temple? Perhaps by visiting JW.org, these questions can be made clear.

An illustration was given by Jesus on what kind of standard should be taken by those that decide to take the lead. The GB doesn’t overreach on its authority. I recall when Brother Jackson commented on how they, including the Elders, should not be seen like the Gentiles of Jesus at the time.  A better defense of contextual evidence than an irresponsible comment from outsiders about Luke. 1 Peter 5:3

Jesus himself stated, he was a servant and not to be served. Matthew 20:25-28

I have not found any evidence to suggest the GB has made it a practice to rule over others except by following Jehovah’s command. I don’t believe the GB has any illusions of being masters, especially task masters.

Maybe some brothers have forgotten. The GB has a greater responsibility as faithful servants and will receive a worse judgment of Jehovah if they deviate from God’s message.

In Brother Russell’s time, it was a given since each congregation was independent of each other. Perhaps the Bible Students felt the same way of understanding, Galatians 6:9.

[JW Insider]

On 9/9/2019 at 6:58 PM, Ray Devereaux said:

While there was a difference between Charles Taze Russell’s understanding of the definition of the word “dedication” and “consecration” it does not diminish todays understanding by Jehovah’s witnesses that understand what an “acceptable” dedication really means.

Russell did see a difference between "consecration" and "dedication." But it did not become a big deal. In fact, the song "Consecration" as it was sung from 1928 under Rutherford's leadership, was not changed to "Dedication" until almost a decade into the leadership period of Knorr/Franz, in the 1950 to 1966 songbook (with hardly any other words changed in the song). After dropping that song for a while, most of the words were brought back into the latest song "My Prayer of Dedication" (now #50).

I should clarify that I see nothing wrong with buying a church/synagogue/mosque, or reusing or repurposing it for our own meetings. (With appropriate modifications.) And I see nothing wrong with selling a property to someone who wishes to use it however they want. The "dedication" was for a temporary purpose because it was a material object.

I also do not object to dedicating material objects for spiritual purposes. There is nothing wrong with dedicating Kingdom Halls, Assembly Halls, or even houses, cars and fields for such purposes.

I did want to make the point that because there will be more and more of this "turnover" and material transience in the times we live in, that we should be careful not to think of such material things as permanent. We are but alien residents passing through the world, and this world is passing away, not just in the future, but parts of it keep passing away before our eyes. (From human, economic, and even natural causes.)

To quote another of our songs: (#92) we do NOT attach any special significance to the material in the building or its location:

May we present this place to you,

And here may your name be known.

We dedicate this place to you;

Please accept it as your own.

2. And now may we honor you, Father,

By filling this place with your praise.

May glory ascend with the increase

Of those who are learning your ways.

Committing this place to your worship,

We give it our generous care.

And long may it stand as a witness,

Supporting the message we bear.

When I worked in the Art Dept at Bethel around 1980, a brother had drawn an Armageddon-like scene from the viewpoint of everyone attending a meeting and the typical destructive view as seen through the window of Kingdom Hall. This view was rejected by the Writing committee in favor of the more typical image of a stream of Witnesses walking away from a city being destroyed and up into the peaceful hills nearby with all eyes forward to a goal and no one looking back. More recently we have seen images of the Great Tribulation from the viewpoint of groups of Witnesses gathering wherever possible, but there is no special emphasis on Kingdom Hall buildings. 

I think that choice of imagery helps to avoid thinking of the buildings themselves as the "ark of salvation." It's much better to think of pure worship, including association with others, as that "ark of salvation."

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Dotlizhihii Tlenaai said:

The GB doesn’t overreach on its authority. I recall when Brother Jackson commented on how they, including the Elders, should not be seen like the Gentiles of Jesus at the time.  A better defense of contextual evidence than an irresponsible comment from outsiders about Luke. 1 Pet 5:3

I believe that the illustration of the Faithful and Discreet Slave applies to the Governing Body. But I also believe that it is presumptuous for anyone to limit the meaning of the Faithful and Discreet Slave to the Governing Body. In fact, making such a claim of BEING the Faithful Slave before Jesus returns to confirm who has actually been "the faithful slave" is presumptuous, and is therefore a sign of being indiscreet. It is the very definition of being "discreet in one's own eyes."

(Isaiah 5:21) . . .Woe to those wise in their own eyes And discreet in their own sight!

1 Peter 5:3 was referenced by you and it says:

(1 Peter 5:3) 3 not lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, . . .

Referring to oneself as "governors" (i.e. a "Governing Body") is exactly what "lording it over" would be expected to look like. So it's not being faithful to this Bible verse, nor to the original illustration of the "faithful and unfaithful steward/slave" in Luke and Matthew. That same point is made in the NWT cross-referenced verse:

(2 Corinthians 1:24) 24 Not that we are the masters [lords/governors] over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing.

When you mention not wanting to be seen like the Gentiles in Jesus time, you probably recall that this included the titles we might use to identify ourselves as the Gentiles and Jews of Jesus day liked to do:

(Matthew 20:25-27) 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.

(Luke 22:27) 27 For which one is greater, the one dining or the one serving? Is it not the one dining? . . .

(Matthew 23:7-10) . . .. 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.

The Governing Body members, through the publications and public conventions, continually point out that they are the ones taking the lead over the congregations, and that correct teaching only comes through the hands of a few, rather than just pointing to how well these teaching match the teachings of Jesus himself. We should consider whether this might actually be the very kind of "overreach" that Jesus warned about. 

I see nothing at all wrong with the idea of the committee(s) of elders who preside over matters for the collective congregations, just as there is nothing wrong with the committee(s) of elders who preside over matters that come up for local congregations. But it is our Christian duty to question the food served, especially to comment on any concerns with respect to how well it matches the teachings of Jesus, the congregations' true Leader and Teacher.

As servants (slaves) the ones preparing such meals should expect and desire to be questioned about the ingredients of the meals they distribute, they should humbly seek out the input of others with respect to the content and quality of the meals prepared and distributed by such stewards.

In reality, there is no parable of the "faithful and discreet slave." It's really a parable of the "faithful slave/steward vs. the unfaithful slave/steward," and it everyone's responsibility to act like the faithful one, and not the unfaithful one.  All of us need to be faithful rather than unfaithful stewards. In fact the parables are MORE about what it means to be the UNFAITHFUL steward. In the parable of "Who really is the [true] neighbor?" this is only a little bit about the untrue neighbor, and MORE about who really is the "TRUE neighbor," using the example of the good Samaritan. But in this parable about "who really is the true steward?" it's about faithfulness, but it's even MORE about examples of UNFAITHFUL stewards, and various levels of unfaithfulness.

That said, it's still true that overseers, including the Governing Body, take on a greater responsibility as stewards. And this also increases the responsibility to act even more faithfully, humbly and discreetly. A slave would never ask for obedience to themselves, only that we obey Christ's leadership. Therefore, as we see how the example of any overseer's faith works out, we obey the lead of those elders. (Hebrews 13:7)

While it's true that we are all stewards, every overseer, especially, is God's steward.

(Titus 1:7) . . .For as God’s steward, an overseer must be free from accusation, not self-willed, . . .

There should be no stewards who set themselves up as a kind of human tribunal:

(1 Corinthians 4:2, 3) . . .In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal. . . .

Paul wrote to congregations in Corinth where certain persons were trying to be too influential in "governing" the faith of those in the congregation, going right back to 2 Cor 1:24 already quoted above.