Believing false information

[divergenceKO]

3 hours ago, Witness said:

We both know you are establishing a belief that an "organization" of leaders is vital to salvation.  

Scripture please?  

Does this mean, The almighty was "wrong" to rely on men to achieve his goal of obedience? Wasn't it vital for those chosen to understand and follow God's laws and commands by those chosen to teach the people? Was Jesus and the apostles not leaders, wasn't it Jesus proclamation to submit and follow those leaders that look out for you, mean nothing?

What kind of separatist are you? Not even a false Christian thinks this way.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

We do not believe in gay rights being acceptable to God, myself nor any Christian I have ever known thinks killing is acceptable,

 

[Witness]

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You would demand a scripture to prove that there were ones who took the lead back then? It is too stupid a request to countenance.

I do not have a scripture to specifically say that first-century Christians used the privy, either. In the absence of one, I am going to assume that they did not.

Prove I am wrong, lady. Where is the scripture?

It's all under this thread, in a conversation with Arauna:

 

[Witness]

16 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Was Jesus and the apostles not leaders, wasn't it Jesus proclamation to submit and follow those leaders that look out for you, mean nothing?

What kind of separatist are you? Not even a false Christian thinks this way.

Firstly, you have totally ignored the scriptures I gave Tom.  Unless Jesus’ words have little meaning to you.    Matt 23:10; Luke 22:25,26

Secondly, to be a “leader” does not mean to expect unfailing obedience to the person or to a “body” of elders.  That is what Jesus was saying in Luke 22:25,26  “It is not to be like that among you”.  But….it undoubtedly is, in the organization.

20 hours ago, Witness said:

There is to be no one exercising headship over another.  If one "leads" in truth, he is serving that individual with truth.  He expects no honor to be given to himself.  Do a little research, look up "honor" and how it relates to "elders" in the organization.  Look up "humility/humble" and how it relates to the anointed in the organization.  No honor is bestowed on God's kings/priests, but certainly  on man's choice of who are the "priests and kings" of your organization.  

Jesus was a separatist, wasn’t he.  This separation from corrupt rule happens again during the time of the end, when God’s people give credence to an organization,  and totally disregard Jesus’ counsel.  Many perceive this stifling oppression by men, who have taken into their hands, a falsely given power to judge another’s spirituality. Rev 13:1,4-8   And, people wake up to the fact that there is a necessity to separate themselves from an invalid rulership, not authorized by Christ or the Father. Rev 18:4-8  Jesus’ words give them validity to do so.  If we choose to obey Jesus’ words, and not your leaders, are we wrong? 

"If anyone hears my words and doesn't keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 "The one who rejects me and doesn't receive my sayings has this as his judge: The word I have spoken will judge him on the last day.  John 12:47,48

If we choose to love Jesus because we believe his words, are we wrong?

Jesus answered, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.  John 12:47

Paul led people to Christ, to truth. He was that type of leader. Does your GB and elder body lead people to Christ, or to an organization of full rulership over 8 million people? 

Paul stated:

 Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I were yet pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave. Gal 1:10

You see, we don’t have to please elders or a GB who expect recognition and honor.  We don’t have to submit to an organization; we only submit to God and Christ – and neither one ARE an organization.  If you see a symbiotic relationship of sort, you are an idolater.  Isa 46:5   

 Don’t you know that when you present yourselves as servants and obey someone, you are the servants of whomever you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?  Rom 6:16

Men cannot bring us life.  If I obey the words of men who expect recognition and obedience; and I don’t obey the words of Christ, I sin, and sin leads to death. 

I chose to obey Christ. 

16 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Does this mean, The almighty was "wrong" to rely on men to achieve his goal of obedience? Wasn't it vital for those chosen to understand and follow God's laws and commands by those chosen to teach the people?

Funny you should mention that, because it is the anointed who carry the laws of God within their heart, as bodily members of Christ who fulfilled the law.  Heb 8:10; Mal 2:7  But, your organization has its own set of laws, and those who carry God's laws have been shoved aside.  Rev 11:1,2; 2 Thess 2:3,4   Even they, have  lost that knowledge of what's inside them, since  the elder body, who "represents" them, RULE with their Shepherd the Flock of God book, and they accept that rule over them.  

Is the organization following God's laws and commands?  How can it, when it chooses to ignore them?  

[Matthew9969]

17 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Can you say that about all Christians? If you read correctly, that is what I meant. It's good your church doesn't believe in Gay Rights? How about those Christian Churches that do? How about those Christian Churches that have Gay Priest?

If you find plenty of stories about Jehovah Witnesses killing others in the name of God, just like the majority of Christians that defend their lands through patronage, possibly including your own church, please provide the evidence. I request you apologize for being a false prophet and naive.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Jehovahs+witness+murders&form=EDGNB2&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&plvar=0&refig=1e8e8c9126c84dc49fa734639ddb1805&sp=-1&pq=jehovahs+witness+murder&sc=8-23&qs=n&sk=&cvid=1e8e8c9126c84dc49fa734639ddb1805

[divergenceKO]

1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Jehovahs+witness+murders&form=EDGNB2&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&plvar=0&refig=1e8e8c9126c84dc49fa734639ddb1805&sp=-1&pq=jehovahs+witness+murder&sc=8-23&qs=n&sk=&cvid=1e8e8c9126c84dc49fa734639ddb1805

There you go again, showing how naive you are by attempting to interject human fallacy (imperfection) with murder that is caused by war. Now who is being dishonest. I can give several cases where a Witness murdered their husband/wife. Do you honestly want people to believe, those witnesses were NOT disfellowshipped for their personal decision with consequences, That you continue to say they are witnesses?

Does your church not teach that lying is a sin? Does the Bible not teach it.

[divergenceKO]

15 hours ago, Witness said:

Firstly, you have totally ignored the scriptures I gave Tom.  Unless Jesus’ words have little meaning to you.    Matt 23:10; Luke 22:25,26

Only because you continue to distort scripture to compare the GB with the Pharisees. That is your opinion. Not to mention, why would Jesus lie about having spiritual leaders. You are calling Jesus a liar.

I won't discuss anything with you anymore. Your disregard for scripture has hit a new low, that I don't want to associate with, even anonymously.

[Witness]

16 minutes ago, divergenceKO said:

Only because you continue to distort scripture to compare the GB with the Pharisees. That is your opinion. Not to mention, why would Jesus lie about having spiritual leaders. You are calling Jesus a liar.

Matt 23:10

Don’t make others call you a leader, because you have only one leader, the Messiah.  GW

Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.  Holman

Nor are you to let yourselves be called ‘leaders,’ because you have one Leader, and he is the Messiah! CJV

None of you should be called the leader. The Messiah is your only leader.  CEV

Do not let yourselves be called leaders or teachers; for One is your Leader (Teacher), the Christ.  AMP

 

I am not calling Jesus a liar.  

[Matthew9969]

Are you saying that is proof that all religions support gay marriage?

[divergenceKO]

Yes you are. You are also lying, the GB are above us spiritual brothers. It’s people like you that distort that. It is your kind that elevate the GB as some kind of POPE. Then some of you use it as an excuse to suggest they are not in compliance with scripture. They elevate themselves. Dishonesty known only to well here.

 

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: 13:17

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

 

13:17 “Obey … submit” This is a PRESENT PASSIVE (A. T. Robertson lists it as a MIDDLE VOICE) IMPERATIVE and PRESENT ACTIVE IMPERATIVE. Although individuals are free in Christ we must yield ourselves to spiritual authority for growth and service (cf. v. 7; I Cor. 16:16; I Thess. 5:12–13).

This word of encouragement to submit to Christian leaders is much needed in our day of disrespect for authority of any kind, and an overemphasis on the rights and powers of the individual. God has placed some as leaders among His people. We honor them because of their call, training, commitment, and service. However, there is an opposite “ditch.” God’s calling has been abused by some authoritarian personalities. There must be a balance, a mutual respect, a co-operative spirit between God’s people and God’s leaders. All believers are called to be subject to one another out of respect for Christ (cf. Eph. 5:20).

Q. Do you, as members of the Governing Body, regard

43 yourselves as being appointed by Jehovah God or under the

44 capacity or authority of Jehovah God?

45 A. What we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our

46 brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility

47 to guard or to be guardians of doctrine. So just the same.

 

The “Ditch” on this forum, it teaches “false” Doctrine by some authoritarian personalities.

This would mean exercising Bible understanding by staying away from such individuals. Provocation is the devil’s work, not God’s.

[Witness]

21 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

This word of encouragement to submit to Christian leaders is much needed in our day of disrespect for authority of any kind, and an overemphasis on the rights and powers of the individual. God has placed some as leaders among His people. We honor them because of their call, training, commitment, and service. However, there is an opposite “ditch.” God’s calling has been abused by some authoritarian personalities. There must be a balance, a mutual respect, a co-operative spirit between God’s people and God’s leaders. All believers are called to be subject to one another out of respect for Christ (cf. Eph. 5:20).

I don't understand where this quote comes from.  From the NASB?

21 hours ago, divergenceKO said:

Although individuals are free in Christ we must yield ourselves to spiritual authority for growth and service

Whoops. That wouldn’t apply to the GB, since they regress and then, redo their doctrine pretty regularly.  Their offerings are soon to be labeled, “rotten fruit” which does not attribute to spiritual growth.  Matt 7:15-20

Heb 13:17, NWT:  “Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive”

Why does the NWT use this interpretation, and I don’t see it anywhere else?   Could it be because the GB, who act like apostles, and along with the elders, have taken the lead over all anointed ones through pure assumption on their part? 2 Thess 2:1-4; Rev 13:4-8,11,15  You are fully aware of the changes in doctrine of the “faithful and discreet slave”.  You also see that the GB are now completely ‘ruling over’ the entire spiritual house of God; not as a faithful steward, but a wicked one who silence any who may disagree with them. Matt 24:48-51 The threat of disfellowshipping, is their polished sword - a control method, effectively used to protect their rule.  Luke 21:12-17; John 16:2; Rev 13:15; 11:3,7

The apostles never ‘took’ the lead, but were given spiritual authority over truth, as a divine appointment. They didn’t have to take it, since Holy Spirit inspired them to lead in truth. Is the GB inspired?  They say no; so, they have “taken the lead” without divine guidance from God. 

 The apostles, with the prophets and Christ as the chief cornerstone, are the foundation of the anointed Temple. Eph 2:20 The GB are the foundation of an organization in this world; which has nothing to do with the organization outlined by God.  Eph 2:20-22  What are the predominate requirements of an organization in the world?  The way to invest its money, how to grow successfully by appealing advertising, how to protect all earthly interests and real-estate investments, how to win lawsuits. Where does truth come in?  The organization may be thriving (?) by worldly standards, but it fails continually when it comes to scripture.   The apostles solely concentrated on Christ’s teachings and nothing connected to the works of futility offered by the world. 

" Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things."  Phil 3:17-19

 The GB have assumed the role of “apostles” to support another “temple”, and they follow the very situation of rule Jesus said not to do in Luke 22:25,26

Heb 13:7 “ Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account”

NIV:  "Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. "

Scriptures4all Interlinear:

BE-YE-beING-PERSUADED to-THE ones-LEADING OF-YOU AND BE-YE-UNDER-SIMULATING they for ARE-beING-vigilant OVER THE souls OF-YOU….

 There are persons who are leaders in their field of expertise; medicine, scholarly teaching, protection (firefighters, police), technology… We can be ‘persuaded’by and "have confidence" in what they offer us through the knowledge they possess, and “submit” to their lead, knowing that by disregarding their lead of expertise, we may end up making unwise choices; possibly affecting our life.

Spiritually speaking, during the apostle’s day those newly joining the body, as well as all believing in Christ, submitted to apostle’s lead to learn, and spiritually, live.  Those “leaders” in the Body of Christ did watch over the souls of those whom they taught the words of Christ.   These new ones were compared to babes, children.  Does not a growing child obey its parent’s direction?  Wasn’t it the aim of Paul to see individuals mature in Christ?

1 Cor 4:15 - "For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."

 "Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious. "   1 Pet 2:2

"For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness—God is witness. 6 Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ. 7 But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children. 8 So, affectionately longing for you, we were well pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God, but also our own lives, because you had become dear to us."   1 Thess 2:5-8

"Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults."     1 Cor 14:20

"For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the sayings of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."  Heb 5:12,13

 In Matt 23:10, Jesus was the apostle’s Master, a Master leader in the Word of God.

This is a better translation:

“Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.”

There is a distinct difference made between the apostles as leaders ,and Christ as our Master. The apostles did not usurp the role of their Head Master, by dominating  their brothers and sisters. The GB does dominate the lives of others through rules and regulations established by men. Col 2:20-23

The word for “master” in the following  two scriptures means,

“he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord”

“the owner; one who has control of the person, the master”

“Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.”  Rom 14:4

“No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”  Matt 6:24

I will not imitate the faith of men who speak their own twisted version of God’s word, with a failed record of prophesy trailing behind them.  I will not follow their lead or the lead of the elder body who parrot their teachings.  No one should.  The GB fully put faith and trust in themselves, and not in God.  The true “leaders” in God’s Word are already outlined in scripture. 

Heb 13:7,8 "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

 

 

 

 

[divergenceKO]

You are correct. Known of the things you imply, apply to the Watchtower GB. I would suggest you look into your own “rotten fruits” before you speak of others.

Submitting endless copy/paste information doesn’t make your stance anymore intellectual. It just makes it more transparent and desperate.

If you consider, most Bibles; base the same basic concept. If you deny the words of scripture because you only rely on your own corrupt understanding, then you deny the words of God no matter how it is applied.