King David

[Jack Ryan]

Take David for example. He is always used as an example by JW’s of God’s forgiveness.

I was under the impression for all of my life that he was forgiven for one sin, one murder, Bathsheba’s husband,

But what I had never even heard of until I left the religion and what wasn’t even considered murder according to the bible during that time was in 1 Samuel 18:27 where David killed 200 hundred Philistines in battle and brought their foreskins back to king Saul so he could marry his daughter. That apparently was okay!

And here were are today, where if someone joins the military or wants to become a police officer they get disfellowshipped! They are expected to die in prison rather then do military training.

David cuts foreskins off people for a wife and he’s one of the greatest examples of faith in the bible! Then if you consider the fact that if someone doesn’t spend enough time in service each month they have to wonder if god will kill them in Armageddon!

Crazy

- Contributed

Not only that ... he was a Pedophile.... no wonder JW's adore him and "imitate his faith"....

Check out how old Abishag was. According to Jewish tradition she was under the age of 14! Nothing happened tho according to scripture, David was probably suffering with penile dysfunction, can't be King if he's not able to perform!

Bet Abishag was given a list of things to do to help with his problem!

[Arauna]

On 12/22/2019 at 8:49 AM, Jack Ryan said:

David killed 200 hundred Philistines in battle

Again I urge you to study a little ancient history to see what practices were prevalent in those days 3000 years ago.  We cannot compare our ideas of how society should function to those days.  One must view history in context of the period.  For instance - People underestimated the power of  radio technology which helped to program an entire nation into Nazism.

You forget that David also did not have only one wife and he was also  given"  a wife - Saul's daughter - which was a most common practice in most kingly families. For example it was practice for the pharoahs to  marry their own sisters. 

When the pharisees challenged Jesus on the divorce certificates,  Jesus replied that Jehovah made only one wife for Adam and intended it to last forever but said that " due to your hard heartedness, 'Moses' allowed this practice. Matthew 19. This is key - under moses they still were allowed more than one wife but this will soon cha ge. Israel had to be made ready for the next set of principles taught by Jesus - not laws- which liberated them as individuals.

Remember that the law wers only a "tutor" until christ. Teaching israel right from wrong....... something which other nations did not have.  For example the pagans practiced spiritism which included oracles in many forms, spells, talking to the dead, magic, marrying children and burning their own children.  

When christ came he taught his dedicated nation even  more  advanced standards such as loving an enemy, having one wife, self-sacrifice and more behaviours which gave individual responsibility coupled with more freedom. Christs disciples refused to go to war and serve in armies.  But israel before them were allowed to protect themselves and on one occasion made pre-emptive war. 

Israel fought for the promised land - but they had to fight for it and trust in God to assist them. 430 years before that God had promised abraham they will acquire this land but not before the wicked people who were living there fulfilled the requirement for being taken off the land by war. Israel carried out gods will - they did not rape women or act unjust in war as other nations did.

You forget that Israel was under terrible oppression in the time of Saul by the Philistines. Goliath was one of them.  They were in constant war. To ask David to get foreskins was basically a death sentence because the opposition was always prepared for war.  Saul was a wicked king by this time and later went to the witch of Endor to speak to the dead. 

David had to show courage similar to Samson who also harassed the oppressive philistines.  The philistines were a powerful nation who also burned their children in fire. 

David had to do battle for the foreskins against hardened soldiers.   If you read any history you will understand that mankind has been at constant warfare and slavery since Cain killed Abel. 

A few years of rest and then at war again.  Most philosophers are saying that another world war is now overdue.... .  But as you know- when the world leaders call out that they have attained " peace and security" then armageddon will be on its way.

Then injustice, oppression and war will only be a history of the past. Under Jehovahs government there will be true peace and security.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

12 minutes ago, Arauna said:

When the pharisees challenged Jesus on the divorce certificates,  Jesus replied that Jehovah made only one wife for Adam and intended it to last forever but said that " due to your hard heartedness, 'Moses' allowed this practice. Matthew 19. This is key - under moses they still were allowed more than one wife but this will soon cha ge. Israel had to be made ready for the next set of principles taught by Jesus - not laws- which liberated them as individuals.

Remember that the law wers only a "tutor" until christ. Teaching israel right from wrong....... something which other nations did not have. 

We can go with try to understand context. That is ok. 

In Moses period, did he go against God Order in Eden? One woman one man. Because, according verses it look like he, Moses gave law on that issue and not God?!  Jesus replied that Jehovah made only one wife for Adam and intended it to last forever but said that " due to your hard heartedness, 'Moses' allowed this practice.

Well, this Bible history record making big question? What laws are given by God and what by Moses??!!  

13 minutes ago, Arauna said:

David had to show courage similar to Samson who also harassed the oppressive philistines.

Yes, but still ..... Does this act shows more? It seems how David was not satisfied just to kill enemies of him and his nation, but he had need to cut private parts of killed people? Or you suggest how such act was just common and normal, not only in historical context, but normal for God's Chosen

If yes, than such practices not contribute to "separated" them as Holy Nation, but to be part of "worldly" spirit. In further talking about this, perhaps God have, had plan to make few various period of changes for his "nation" and in every time frame doing something to mold his people in specific way but according to worldly, secular circumstances?  This can work too. Because people are not "inspired" to do good and teach good and truth, but to live according to general situation :))   

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Moses period, did he go against God Order in Eden?

No - Jehovah allowed it in Mosaic law because the Israelites were so hard hearted.... but Christians had to follow the standard set in Eden. They used this certificate to divorce wives on any small pretext - even leaving older wives for young ones. They abused this provision.

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

cut private parts of killed people

They cut private parts of young girls in our so-called modern society.  The law case against the doctor in USA was thrown out of court.  Thousands of young girls in Africa and even in USA are subjected to this - which makes them vulnerable to all kinds of sicknesses - not to mention the life threat and pain to having sex and child birth. This is happening right now with permission of most governments.

Savagery in war has been with mankind forever.   Some scalped, some shrunk and kept the heads of victims. Less than 400 years ago in Europe they used to hang and quarter people - let their entrails hang out......put their heads on pikes for weeks.  I will not go into the other gruesome things that humans can think up.  In Zaire in 1972 they put barbwire up JWs  backsides and screwed it around so their intestines break up and they die a most painful and slow death..... you want to know about more details?   I can tell you some gruesome things which Africans and also ISIS are still doing in Africa and in the Syria war...... you will not sleep for a week.

So cutting off foreskins as proof of activity after persons were dead and cannot feel pain is merciful.  For more civilized people today this is very distasteful BUT remember this:   the germans were very civilized nation - and look what atrocities they got up to during WW2. The Japannese as well.  Look what people did to each other during hurricane Katrina a few years back..... bring bad situations and peoples true colors come out.   Most people are capable of horrible things when they do not believe that Jehovah can see them.

Jehovah's people are now being prepared for a time of anarchy so they do not participate in this kind of stuff during Armageddon and so keep Jehovah's approval. 

Israel had laws and were not allowed to do certain things in battle which other nations practiced.  They did not flay people and cut off body parts as the assyrians did.  They did not cut off all the fruit trees and stop up water holes etc.  Jehovah did teach them mercy and justice. 

 

[JJJ-AUSTRALIA]

Wow I didn't know that part about David even with context to skinned enemies for whatever reason sounds pretty over the top.

Is like killing them wasn't enough... 

Makes U wonder why JWs doesn't teach that bit.... 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

It's not that the people back then were so barbaric ... it's just that we today are so pansy-ass wimpy.

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah allowed it in Mosaic law

I made question on this. Please to repeat it once again. Who made and gave law on polygamy in Israel? JHVH or Moses? It would be nice to hear clear and unambiguous answer.

If JHVH, than it is needles and excessive to talking about permission.

allow = to give permission for someone to do something, or to not prevent something from happening:

If Moses get this regulation from his own head, than we can start asking about other problems. Was Moses INSPIRED by God when wrote this and other paragraphs? .......etc.

When JW people answer with: "JHVH allowed" ....this or that in Moses Law, such answer is not answer but just comment that say nothing valid. JHVH allowed many things, good and bad. Not only things connected with Moses Law, old Israel, First Congregation or today's JW, but also with all other things in life of all people who lived and living now in the World. To just say: "He ALLOWED" is meaningless. And can give both, wrong and/or correct, perception about interaction between God and Human and relation that coming from some sort of inactivity, lack of interest from God but also from human. Perhaps various aspects of "atheism" or non-religiosity coming from human can be also be explained by wording "allowed". Human "allowed" that things happen (People allow things to happen).

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

To the best of my knowledge and belief , based on actual provable facts ( and not flights of fantasy) in modern times Jehovah has not interfered in the lives of ANY Nation, or ANY individual.

He did not save  anyone involved in World War I .. or World War II ..... not as a political nation, not as a religious group, and not as individuals.

...and that's the fact, Jack!

Of course you can disprove my statement with just ONE solid example to the contrary.

I look forward to your correcting me.

.... all it takes is just ONE example to the contrary.

 

 

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, JJJ-AUSTRALIA said:

U wonder why JWs doesn't teach that bit.

We know about that. If you attend all meetings you will hear about these details. There are other interesting facts as well such as when the ark was taken by the philistines their god, Dagon fell face down - If I remember correctly on 3 consecutive days; they also developed terrible piles etc.   

 

55 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JHVH allowed" ....this or that in Moses

When Jehovah allowed things it was not the ideal but he allowed it because - as Jesus said - they were hard-hearted.  Most probable hard to deal with too because their inclination was not kind, or loving. What does your church say about it?  Do they have an opinion?

 

45 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

has not interfered in the lives of ANY Nation

I agree on this - he does not take political or racist sides. However, he can assist people to deal with major problems and to stay faithful.  In some cases he can use circumstances to work out for his servants.  When witnesses were facing long prison sentences they received their freedom...quite unexpectedly -it happened in 1919. Jehovah had a job for them to do.  

[JJJ-AUSTRALIA]

Attend all the meetings. 😆😆😆

[Arauna]

2 minutes ago, JJJ-AUSTRALIA said:

Attend all the meetings

Your choice...... 

[Srecko Sostar]

20 minutes ago, Arauna said:

When Jehovah allowed things it was not the ideal but he allowed it because - as Jesus said - they were hard-hearted.  Most probable hard to deal with too because their inclination was not kind, or loving. What does your church say about it?  Do they have an opinion?

I am not church member. I gave my opinion and thoughts and questions. You said: When Jehovah allowed things it was not the ideal but he allowed it because - as Jesus said - they were hard-hearted. 

Why you think, how JHVH dealing with human in this way, by allow, is not ideal?? JHVH is perfect and if he decide "to allow" things, than that IS ideal. You need more faith :)))

As i can understand so far, JHVH "allowed" (perhaps exist some Bible verse who said this. It will be fine to find Bible verse who give clear God's intention and standpoint on this idea.

Next, we have Jesus words who specifically say how Moses, and NOT JHVH, gave permission about it.

Idea how JHVH "allowed" polygamy is just human idea and theological explanation.

Fact that Jesus confirmed is clear: Moses gave them permission to have more than one wife. Jesus never said; JHVH gave permission. 

Also, Jesus gave answer on question: "Why Moses allowed that?". But Jesus not gave answer on: "Why JHVH not stopped this immoral law to be part of His Law and to stand as equal among His righteous and supreme, Divine words and laws?"