Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

I guess we must remove the word conspiracy from the dictionary.

I don't know why anyone would think of that. There are proven conspiracies going on all the time. As you say, they are usually only proven later to have been conspiracies. But just because something fits a preconceived notion, agenda, ideology, or prejudice of ours, it doesn't mean there is actually a specific predefined conspiracy going on. The actual conspiracy might even be the one that we are inadvertently ignoring just because we prefer to believe the conspiracy that fits our preconceptions. This is why, a real look into available evidence from many different sources can be a protection against false conspiracies.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

They are there because they are Muslim.

I'm not sure whether you realize that the Muslim issue in China is one of the most hypocritically pushed stories the West has recently attempted. The Western nations attack Muslims and push anti-Muslim rhetoric in their militaries constantly, and ultimately end up killing literally hundreds of thousands of Muslim civilians in several different countries. You would think this was designed to create Muslim terrorists in the same way that Americans would undoubtedly react if America was continuously bombed decade after decade if, say, Japan, for example, kept bombing the US to take oil and other resources. 

I suspect there is a lot of prejudice and injustice that goes on in China against Muslims, especially when I consider how Americans have treated their minority populations recently, in my own town, and over the last couple centuries, too. But a lot of people don't realize that China has had a much larger terrorism issue with Muslims than the US has ever had on their own soil. Thousands of Uyghur Muslims have gone from China to Syria to fight with Al-Qaeda type forces. Many thousands are "radicalized." And yet even other Uyghur Muslims in China have praised the processes that China has been using to try to rehabilitate violent Muslim prisoners in humane ways. I know that the West would prefer to have everyone believe that there are ten million Uyghur Muslims all being tortured and chopped up for their body parts by the Chinese. If this was true, the terrorism problem would have gotten bigger. But it's actually considered by Uyghurs themselves as a massive success story. In fact, Chinese people have been punished for mistreatment of Uyghur Muslims and other minorities. The police in charge of the reeducation are Uyghur themselves. Pakistan officials for example have praised the Chinese processes and the great success story of the "reeducation" as a way to reduce terrorism. The Chinese leaders are proud of their successes in reducing ethnic violence, retraining for civic responsibility, education and gainful employment.

The Chinese are appalled at the United States, for the methods used here where violence and imprisonment are the common tools. The United States imprisons millions MORE people than does China, even though China has nearly 5 times the population. Incarceration rates are low in China, and the government emphasizes the assimilation of many different ethnicities of persons without violence. But the US has "black sites" "Guantanamo" "Abu Ghraib" and videos sometimes slip out showing torture.

I don't mention this at all to try to say that many things are better in China. A few things are probably better and a few things are probably worse. 80 percent of Chinese people give their government high marks in surveys. But they also strongly criticize things they don't like about their government. I've seen it. They laugh (sadly, sometimes) when they hear about the propaganda that tells Americans that the Chinese can't criticize their government. The laugh when they hear reports that China is kicking out Americans and teachers when they know that more and more people are coming to China to work. My son, who now writes Chinese fairly well, and went to school with many fellow students from China knows several Americans who have gone there to teach, or both Chinese and Americans who have gone back there to work. They also laugh when they hear that journalists can't get the truth out of the country. There are thousands of foreign journalists in China. It's the ones who are NOT in China, or have a Western political agenda who report the kind of very common false information.

So, I'm just hoping that we are careful not to fall into the trap of accepting exaggerated issues which are often just pushed onto us as propaganda.

We can often identify the hints that help us divide truth from propaganda when we hear items that can be checked for accuracy. We can't check all things for accuracy, because every nation tries to "spin" away its problems, and hide the negatives. 

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

The noose in the entire world is getting tighter. We are heading for a neo-fascistic/communistic world system wherein oligarchs and capitalist billionaires are working towards the same goals.

Just in case you think I disagree, I don't. I think this is absolutely true. This doesn't mean I see all the same conspiracies that you see, and perhaps not in all the same places. But that's not because I think you are necessarily wrong. It only means that when I tried to find the same evidence you seem to have based your specific beliefs on, I didn't see the evidence.

(I should add that this is not because I haven't tried. I've asked several persons to show the supposed Agenda points you often speak about in the actual U.N. documents you have claimed to know about, for example, and no one has yet been able to show me the actual places in these agreements where many of the claims are supposedly stated. This is not just about you, but several other persons I have questioned elsewhere who believe the same things.)

Now I find that some of these ideas come from sources like the ones linked to earlier. When I see these persons twisting facts in exactly the same way that some apostates twist facts about Witnesses, I begin to think its important to start checking out ALL of their "facts."

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

Tech companies gave away their technological secrets willingly to China and were instrumental in building up China in exchange for mega global financial growth....In the modern secular way of US thinking - I guess they are not accountable because the US dollar is the god ! It is the standard way of thinking in US. Trickle down economics has fooled everyone!  

More points of perfect agreement between us! LOL.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

The mega- capitalist corporations did not bring 'tax' into USA to help with infrastructure.  No, they did not want to pay tax because then they have no control over where the tax dollars are spent.   Instead they create "charity foundations" wherein they themselves  decide which subversive or front organizations get their money (those, which promote only their propaganda) and they  still "look good " in the public eye.

Absolutely. This is a difficult point for most Americans to understand. Even what looks like some of the best philanthropy will sometimes go (at least partially) to excellent charitable ends. But this too is often done as a way to divert millions to their own friends and family in organizations that do good, but with self-serving ends. One of those goals can be to "look good" while pushing an agenda that overall does even less good for the greater number of people. In other words, a specific policy that might help people will be lobbied against by a company that seems to do good for at least a few people. And then, the worst of all worlds, as you mention above, are those front organizations that pretend to do good but are really subversive. The US government has made use of such organizations even though they have great names like US AID, Centers for Democracy, Council on Foreign Relations, etc.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

CCP are not only manipulating these numbers but economic data etc. An oppressive, centralized government and its capabilities of hiding facts are unlimited.   i.e.Citizens in China who were reporting on the new virus using VPNs, were clamped down upon and all are facing long prison sentences.... no freedom any longer in China. 

I wouldn't doubt that numbers are being manipulated. I still have the TV on in the next room and half listened to Trump's State of the Union. Governments manipulate numbers as long as they can get away with it. I listened to the President manipulate economic data and hide facts, so what China does wouldn't surprise me either.

But it's completely untrue that that citizens in China reporting about the virus on VPN's are facing long prison sentences. They are still talking about it right now, on VPN's, as we speak. You can go right now on WeChat, Tik Tok, or Twitter and see Chinese people talking about the virus. Some are scared. Some are optimistic. Some have complained about local officials mishandling it. China is probably happy in general to have Chinese people talking about it. But there have been some who have been pushing a political agenda and who think that trying to cause mass hysteria is the way to go, or a way to get attention. If persons are purposely trying to cause panic and terror just because they don't like a political party then they should be censured. When China started the new 1000 bed hospital, I saw many Western reports (from amateurs) that those bulldozers were there to bury thousands of bodies. This is irresponsible, and such disinformation is second-nature on US news panels.

[Arauna]

On 2/4/2020 at 3:59 AM, Kosonen said:

thanks for replying to me, I felt encouraged. 

I like how you take the time to quote all the scriptures and very happy  you are taking the times we are living in so seriously.  Even if it does not happen exactly as these world leaders have indicated  - the bible (jehovah) shows the clear intentions of their hearts by indicating the beast's (king's) actions on the world scene - especially in the last days - the type of 'exclusive worship' the beast exacts from everyone and penalties for those who do not comply.... (not be able to buy or sell). 

Jehovah knew from the start of satan's rebellion what wicked humans would do with power, money and technological advancement combined. He also knows how satan will draw humans out to do his ultimate wish : to openly and literally 'enslave' all humans to false worship of the state (or else)  so they are 'forced' to leave their worship and 'service' to jehovah and lose everlasting life. 

This is Satan's ultimate goal which I think Rutherford understood clearly when he spoke of the totalitarians winning.  Unfortunately, It was way too far ahead of time for Rutherford to understand all the details because he applied it to his own time.......

BUT at the present time  there is a constant drip of world leaders and billionaires (who fund organizations) making statements which are indicating that they are working towards one world government. While their intentions may not be wicked at the start they are helping towards a goal that will ultimately be the most oppressive and wicked in its outcome - because jehovah will have to step in to save us. All flesh will be under threat.

Other statements from these atheist leaders and their world views (political philosophies) indicate to me that they think the Chinese model and neo-communism is a good thing (it has been white-washed) - which further indicates to me we are heading for a totalitarian type setup with little property rights and a rationing of all human needs.  To me this is worse than than the ancient feudal system. 

It is now time to get on Jehovahs side and understand how important it is not to get the mark of the beast.  The mark of the beast is not a literal computer chip or a literal mark because the beast itself is 'symbolic.' ......It is worship of the beast (entire political system) and a belief that human government can bring peace and security to the earth.  (Although they are already experimenting with human control by installing chips in the brain).

Only jehovah and his government under christ can bring true peace and security.............. However, the 'propaganda ' in the schools, universities, in the media is leading people to leave worship of jehovah and faithfulness to his laws/ principles to be replaced by a worship of secular thinking such as LGBTQ and all the new wordly goals they are replacing Jehovahs worship with. Collectivist thinking will eventually lead to the individual's life to be worthless - as in the totalitarian states.  Respect for life is waning.  I saw an under cover video clip yesterday where Bernie Sander's campaign camp were talking about gulags in USA. They were talking like bolchevists.......this gives one an indication how the youth (the leaders in less than 10 years) are thinking.  Life to them is worthless and they seem to have been indoctrinated at universities. 

If one knowns what the final goals are of agenda 21, 2030 (the outcomes the world leaders are working towards) then one can start to recognise the steps leading  to the final outcome in the daily news trickle. I do that.... think about what world leaders say and how it will affect the outcome jehovah has predicted  and my personal loyalty to jehovah. 

We know the outcome.... humans will fail to bring peace and security.  I myself am careful not to get too involved with the worldly things. I watch for trends.  The new trend is the one world religion which they want to forge......... The "harlot" ( Babylon the great)  will soon get center stage on the world scene and ride the beast (as before) by giving the goals of satan a boost. Her spiritism in opposition of worship to jehovah will lead to a conjuring up a false peace between the religions of this world.  At present the Christian's in north Africa are being exterminated in a type of genocide.......Is the Pope or other religious leaders talking about this?  No they are promoting the idea of one God (abrahamic interfaith) and one united  religion.   The idea is actually ludicrous if one has studied Islam and talmudic judaism..... but their UN-type agreements will eventually become binding on all. 

Yes, things are moving along and will get impetuous as more people succumb to secular philosophical  thinking..... after this things will happen in rapid succession...... Within the last 3 years the attitudes of people the world over has changed drastically...... I cannot imagine what attitude changes the next three years will bring. 

 

 

[Arauna]

On 2/5/2020 at 9:08 AM, JW Insider said:

There are proven conspiracies going on all the time. As you 

On 2/5/2020 at 9:08 AM, JW Insider said:

we prefer to believe the conspiracy that fits our preconceptions.

 

The bible clearly states that the state (beast) will control us to the extent that we will not be able "to buy or sell".  This is my "pre-conception".  I look out for world government trends (no matter what type of government) which confirm this 'pre-conception.' 

This is why I also look for trends in capitalist or democratic  countries who tend to go in this direction too. Such as issuing a  'license' to be a reporter. If you report against the ideals of the government or investigate corruption of the government your license is not renewed.  This is now being contemplated in Canada.   The noose is getting tighter......in the west as well. 

 In China at present one cannot travel or buy (bank account control),  if you anger the government.......yes,  it is already happening. The precedent is set.

In the idea of agenda 21 - the participating Western countries are removing property rights, and want to control all basic needs of water, food, transport, clothing etc (the idea is to have absolute control of the environment for sustainable development) smells very much to me of something I had seen before in history..... To  my mind it is NOT a conspiracy but something they have told us they are planning.... 176 countries signed up to it.   It fits in with my biblical 'pre-conception' of control from a central source -  the "image of the beast" who becomes the eighth king and receives kingship 'willingly' from other governments. 

While I am totally for the preservation of the environment, I firmly believe the environment is in a worse state than they are letting on and they now are taking drastic steps to control it....... this means a faster implementation of these agenda 21 plans that they have already revealed. 

I do not buy into the cover up (studies which lead us to believe the environment is hunky-dory)  of the true state of the environment because jehovah gave us a clue in Rev. 11:18..... another 'preconception'  I have.   If I read that crustacians have lost an extremely high percentage of their calcium shells compared to lab specimens of 100 years ago...... due to acidification of the sea.... I know that this prophecy is coming true because the food chain for bigger sea creatures can face eminent collapse if this keeps going on. The skins of sharks are thinning due to sea acidification.  ..... so I know that governments know they have to act in a drastic way........ which is already going on with the NGOs which are changing local laws in a drastic way all over USA and many UN agenda 21 countries to accommodate sustainable development. I read today that a ski resort closed in Bolivia in 2009 due to disappearance of a glacier. .... the prediction was the glacier would only disappear in 2015 ...... so ice is melting faster than predicted.

On 2/5/2020 at 9:08 AM, JW Insider said:

You would think this was designed to create Muslim terrorists in the same way that Americans would undoubtedly react if America was continuously bombed

Now THAT is a conspiracy theory!   I understand Islam very well - how Satanic it really is. I understand how dangerous is really is....... and how desperate the communistic governments are to control its terrorism. 

Islam is hostile to all human governments except it's own sharia law which it believes must be implemented in the entire world - with violence if needed.  Islam is NOT peaceful. The Quran and Hadith explicitly allows to kill unbelievers and other muslims which are hypocrites.  No government or soldiers can make Islam violent - its holy book ideology makes it violent.. It is inherently violent and becomes aggravated by any opposition. I therefore understand why totalitarian governments would act so harshly to re-educate these people.  Why I use Islam as an example in China is to demonstrate the tactics the CCP will resort to, to take children away from parents - which is wicked - no matter how violent the person is against the government. I cannot imagine jehovah ever doing that to a wicked person.  

Daily in the West people are openly knifed with calls of "Allahu akbar" but it is swept under the carpet and no-one (not even scholars) dare analyze the trends and say Islam is dangerous. Self-censorship is going on because of prison sentences by western governments on freedom of speech - even in the press -  as the UN compact 2018 agreement prescribes.. Scholars do not receive funding if they do not extoll the virtues of Islam.  To my mind there is something 'seriously amiss ' when this is going on.  I can almost call it a 'conspiracy' to silence everyone because there is really no solution to the problem. .... so bear up and keep quiet is the new moto. I know that this will lead to anarchy AFTER the call of peace and security...... the government cannot control it forever...... it is setting the stage for Armageddon. Religious and racial tensions are escalating all over.

In Russia they subjugated Chechnya by war.  Went in with tanks.  Because Russia is Russia it was eccepted. This can be done when one has a controlled media......and  the rest of the world receives only a 'trickle' of what  is really going on. 

China may have been highly acceptable until 2017 regarding freedoms but the new reality is : the CCP has returned to hard core communism and all press is controlled.  Foreign press visitors are  accompanied by state officials and watched. Unwanted footage IS confiscated. Independent news agencies have left the country or are leaving due to oppressive government attitudes.  The exodus out of China is going on. Foreigners were welcomed before but no longer needed.

Like in Russia -all foreigners have to register their whereabouts with the state.(hotels usually do this for you)  If you leave your apartment for longer than 2 days (if I remember correctly) you have to go to the police station and register your location with the police or face a penalty. With the new facial recognition surveillance they find you pretty quickly.

This is the NEW reality of China.   The China which needed financial aid from the outside world to rise itself  up to first world status has risen into a full grown fiery dragon which controls everything. Citizens who do not comply find themselves ostracized by everyone.  If you have contact phone numbers in your phone with anyone who  is labelled an "offender" against the state, your social credit score is lowered and your livelihood affected.

I do not think you understand fully the extent of the new control system. You say the exodus is western propaganda.   I dread to think what they are doing to JWs when caught meeting together.  Falun gong members are being used for body parts ,  not muslims at this time. Falun gong members are hunted down in stazi-fashion.  

They do more than 10000 transplants a year and one can get fully matching tissue immediately -  if you have the money.  This is unheard of in the west. One can get a 'matching' organ only after an extremely long wait.  They take DNA samples of all Falin Gong prisoners.

On 2/5/2020 at 9:08 AM, JW Insider said:

And yet even other Uyghur Muslims in China have praised the processes that China has been

If you are watched by the state - you will praise anything they do.  BUT secret messages are leaking out about what is going on...... I have watched heart-breaking videos.  People who cannot deal with the current re-education camps commit suicide. The preconceptions I have is "respect for life and justice" no matter how bad a person may be or how bad his religion may be deemed to be by the state. No human is dispensable.

On 2/5/2020 at 9:08 AM, JW Insider said:

there are ten million Uyghur

There are more than 1 million  in re-education camps and their homes are being bulldozed. In its place they are building surveillance type high buildings to keep tabs on everyone in future.  This is similar to agenda 21 ideals. 

 

On 2/5/2020 at 9:08 AM, JW Insider said:

They are still talking about it right now, on VPN's, as we speak.

I saw a segment yesterday on CNN which indicated that the doctor who contacted the government at first was ignored. He is now a hero....

But all doctors who were speaking out on VPN were followed up on by police. I saw one holding up a letter from police to not talk to anyone. 

While I understand that China do not want panic, I thoroughly understand that all news is now controlled by government. Citizen reporting is not allowed - on any subject. This is typical of totalitarian state.  They can commit atrocities in one district while the rest of the country does not know anything about it (travel restrictions apply as well) because news cannot get out about injustices or atrocities. 

Stalin killed everyone who knew about things he ordered to be done so the truth could not get out. This is a common MO in all totalitarian states. China is changing fast!  Foreigners allowed into China now are watched..... you have to be pro-China and have hi-tech information they can use.  If you are just an English teacher you are no longer welcome because they do not want your freedom ideas being spread.  They now check the phones of Chinese who have visited abroad for foreign websites.   I warn Chinese I preach to, to be careful. It is the loving thing to do.

On 2/5/2020 at 9:08 AM, JW Insider said:

persons are purposely trying to cause panic and terror just because they don't like a political party

I saw footage of people falling face down in hospital and a doctor calling a government official and going off on him because they waited too long to act and medicine was not available. He was working without rest for 36 hours (not allowed to rest) and had reached the end of his tether. Someone took the footage secretly and put it on internet.  I am sure that doctor will be watched in future.  He had no agenda against the government- just concerned about people. 

 

On 2/5/2020 at 9:08 AM, JW Insider said:

saw many Western reports (from amateurs) that those bulldozers were there to bury thousands of bodies. This is irresponsible, and such disinformation is second-nature on US news panel

Unfortunately they do this and a lot of rednecks will believe this....... The disease does have a high infection rate and according to reports at least a 10-15 %  death rate of those infected - mostly the very young, old, and those with a compromised immune system. 

Other reports say just above 2 % death rate. 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coronavirus-is-less-deadly-than-sars-but-that-may-explain-why-its-so-contagious-2020-01-30

[JW Insider]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to so many of the points made.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

In China at present one cannot travel or buy (bank account control),  if you anger the government.......yes,  it is already happening. The precedent is set.

Very possible, and in some cases very likely. Although it's easy to imagine that Chinese hear the same "propaganda" about the US when they are told about how the US Government freezes the assets of people who anger the US government and confiscate the property of those who anger the US Government and garnishes wages of those who anger the government (by not paying taxes or owing debts to courts and certain corporations). I know that one of the big problems in China is the fact that persons who cannot pay their train fares will crowd around the stations and jump on a train at the last minute even though they don't have a ticket. This is one of the reasons that facial recognition is being implemented at train stations. But we have the same thing at Penn Station and Grand Central Station in NYC, and undercover police make rounds at many of the subway stations to catch fare-beaters. I've seen dozens of these arrests over the years. (I understand that our real-time facial recognition doesn't work well enough yet, but that any seized security tape can be run through facial recognition by our police departments.)

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is why I also look for trends in capitalist or democratic  countries who tend to go in this direction too. Such as issuing a  'license' to be a reporter. If you report against the ideals of the government or investigate corruption of the government your license is not renewed.

I agree with the approach to look at trends and corruption wherever it comes from. You apparently had the impression that I was supportive of re-writing history in support of communistic or socialistic countries. But it's a matter of looking at additional types of trends and corruption. One of those types of corruption is the attempt to persuade a population not to investigate corruption about their own nation's involvement in media manipulation, currency manipulation, statistical manipulation. The uses of propaganda in the United States and the Western allies is so powerful and pervasive that it should make us question what we are told to think about other nations. The targets of much of the propaganda and regime change since WWII have been communist and socialist countries. So pointing out cases of this type of propaganda and these types of attacks on other countries will no doubt make some people think I am taking sides. It does not at all mean that I am siding with communistic or socialistic countries, but the methods the US has used to get citizens to ignore the abuses perpetrated all around the world are right under our noses. As you say, it's not even a "conspiracy" in the usual sense, because the admissions and intentions are often spelled out and documented, barely hidden.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

In the idea of agenda 21 - the participating Western countries are removing property rights, and want to control all basic needs of water, food, transport, clothing etc (the idea is to have absolute control of the environment for sustainable development) smells very much to me of something I had seen before in history....

I saw all this scary stuff in the conspiratorial commentary about Agenda 21. Then I looked it up myself, and most of it wasn't there. Just a few snippets of information that someone had built up into a big story. The snippets did not match the story that was made up. It made me wonder if people were reading the actual documents or just listening to the fear mongering and propaganda. That said, I agree that many Western countries, and probably many others too, have shown evidence that they don't really care so much about the environment, but would be willing to use any excuse to further control and trample the rights of the populations they are supposed to serve. Western countries especially have already been subverted by individuals representing corporate and other "monied" interests. This is not a conspiracy, it's continuous history. This will continue to happen whether Agenda 21 is innocuous or ominous.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

It fits in with my biblical 'pre-conception' of control from a central source -  the "image of the beast" who becomes the eighth king and receives kingship 'willingly' from other governments.

The UN could easily fulfill a role like the image of the beast, who receives kingship willingly from other governments. But it is not at all necessary for a Biblical fulfillment. The WTS has been looking for ways to tie the UN to this type of fulfillment for decades, just as many other religions in Christendom have also done. But Jehovah can make or permit this fulfillment to happen in any way he sees fit. His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. We need more humility and less presumptuousness. We don't need to pretend that we KNOW Jehovah's mind, and that we KNOW just what entities will be involved in the working out of his purpose.

A review of our past beliefs on the "disgusting thing standing where it ought not" "Gog/Magog" "the eighth king" "king of the North/South" would all show that more humility is in order.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

so I know that governments know they have to act in a drastic way........ which is already going on with the NGOs which are changing local laws in a drastic way all over USA and many UN agenda 21 countries to accommodate sustainable development.

They NEED to change laws in a drastic way, but I don't see it already going on "all over USA."

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

On 2/5/2020 at 12:08 AM, JW Insider said:

You would think this was designed to create Muslim terrorists in the same way that Americans would undoubtedly react if America was continuously bombed

Now THAT is a conspiracy theory! 

Not really a conspiracy theory. The US military has already shared papers that indicate they knew good and well that their policies were creating more terrorists. This has worked not only for the Middle East, but has worked predictably --as predicted-- in Central and South America, too.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Islam is NOT peaceful. The Quran and Hadith explicitly allows to kill unbelievers and other muslims which are hypocrites.

In my experience, 99 percent of Islam is as peaceful as 99 percent of nominal Christians, and 99 percent of Buddhists, etc. There are 100,000 Muslims in the metropolitan areas nearest where I live. After I retired 7 years ago, I also took a part time remote job working for a young practicing Muslim who was born in Palestine, as were his parents and uncles, all of whom I have met. We've had several discussions about his religion, and what they think of the those references to the Quran and Hadith. They are treated in about the same way that Judaism treats similar passages in the Hebrew Scriptures.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

No government or soldiers can make Islam violent - its holy book ideology makes it violent.. It is inherently violent and becomes aggravated by any opposition.

OK. Now I see why you didn't like the idea that the US and Western governments helped to create terrorists through the harsh and inhumane treatment of Islamic nations. The type of wars and crimes that Israel and the US, for example, wages on Muslim civilians will not likely convince you. But I think you are already aware of how the US has used combinations of bombings and sanctions on countries that won't give the US the control it wants in the Middle East. Before the Iraq War, in the decade before 9/11, the US had already killled hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Here's a statement about it, which is very typical. https://jacobinmag.com/2016/05/war-iraq-bill-clinton-sanctions-desert-fox

The effects of the sanctions were catastrophic. Iraq experienced shortages of food, medicine, and clean drinking water. And a 1995 Lancet study sponsored by the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization concluded that 576,000 children under the age of five perished because of the policy, while a “conservative” estimate put the death toll for the same age group at 350,000.

Dennis Halliday, a thirty-four-year UN veteran, resigned from the organization in protest after spending a little over a year as the UN Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq. He said the sanctions constituted genocide. His successor, Hans von Sponeck, also a career UN employee, lasted just two years before stepping down in protest; Jutta Burghardt, then head of the World Food Program, did the same.

If Muslims had found a way to kill half a million American children under the age of 5, you think that a majority-"Christian" nation would not turn violent? If not, perhaps it's because the United States was already violent. Most of those half-million deaths of children were managed because the United States was pushing biological warfare against them, by bombing electricity, sewage treatment, and clean water and irrigation sources. Along with sanctions to make sure no help and aid came to them. This might not look like "violence" to some people, but when you watch those men, women and children die, you feel it just the same, or worse.

And it takes a lot of successful propaganda to be able to pull this off, mostly during the decade before 9/11, without too many complaints by investigative journalists. 

We might even want to rethink which countries and ideologies we consider to be the more violent, and which countries are really the totalitarian countries.

I won't bother again with most of the claims you make about China, because most of these ideas are easily debunked even by anti-Chinese, anti-CCP journalists who have been in China, looking for the evidence.

[Kosonen]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

The bible clearly states that the state (beast) will control us to the extent that we will not be able "to buy or sell".  This is my "pre-conception".  I look out for world government trends (no matter what type of government) which confirm this 'pre-conception

Yes, that is interesting to do and should just get clearer as time goes on. Really various end time prophecies should become more and more easy to understand thanks to events in the end time. 

[Witness]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The UN could easily fulfill a role like the image of the beast, who receives kingship willingly from other governments. But it is not at all necessary for a Biblical fulfillment. The WTS has been looking for ways to tie the UN to this type of fulfillment for decades, just as many other religions in Christendom have also done. But Jehovah can make or permit this fulfillment to happen in any way he sees fit. His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. We need more humility and less presumptuousness. We don't need to pretend that we KNOW Jehovah's mind, and that we KNOW just what entities will be involved in the working out of his purpose.

Yes, the UN could fulfill that “image”. Satan can make it so. 

The image is spirit inspired and directed by a false prophet. Rev 13:11,12,15 The false prophet (Rev 13:11) comes with “two” horns (kings) like a lamb.  Two represents “truth”.  It is representative of false messiahs who appear to speak “truth”.  (John 8:17; Matt 24:24)

Two kings. Both are symbolic.  Daniel speaks of this:

“The two kings, with their hearts bent on evil, will sit at the same table and lie to each other, but to no avail, because an end will still come at the appointed time.”  Dan 11:27

This Beast from the Earth are “kings of the earth”.

John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits^[a] before his throne, ⁵ and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.  Rev 1:4,5

The only “kings” that Jesus rules over are his kings.

“On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords.”  Rev 19:16

“And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.   Rev 5:10

In the last days many of these kings who have not received the seal of their God on their foreheads, (Rev 9:4; 7:3) become unfaithful:

“For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”  Rev 18:3

With “her”…with the false prophet, who is the Harlot of Revelation.  Rev 17:1-5

The two Beasts of Revelation use deceitful lies to conquer God’s chosen people.

 The UN will not conquer God’s chosen people with lies.

Rev 16:13,14 - "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.  For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”

JWs and the “kings of the earth”/anointed priests are found throughout the world – “all the nations”. 

 

 

[Arauna]

On 2/6/2020 at 3:27 PM, JW Insider said:

The uses of propaganda in the United States and the Western allies is so powerful and pervasive that it should make us question what we

True - at our universities and local level many front organizations operating without restrictions.... and it is propaganda, propaganda everywhere. 

This is why the new philosophy of collectivism is so popular and young people no longer see right from wrong. Each one has their own opinion what is right and wrong and there is no longer an 'objective' moral compass - thrown about like waves of the sea full of mire.

On 2/6/2020 at 3:27 PM, JW Insider said:

Although it's easy to imagine

I am not talking about imagination. I am talking about reality!  Within China - information from America and the outside world is being  restricted and also any negative  information from within China to the Chinese people  I.e. this Carona virus is a good example:  the whistleblower doctor was forced to sign papers that restricted his talking and he was threatened with imprisonment.  The CCP within China has changed its policies and the propaganda within China is now the real thing: neo-communism...... becoming more totalitarian as we speak. Why is Hong-Kong rioting? Because they want the 'new freedom' of China?

 

I know why you see nothing wrong in the UN  migrant compact of 2018..... and agenda 21.   

The ' re-training'  of journalists as stipulated in the Compact does not bother you.? .....The "right" of any person to be a migrant and be given food,  shelter and medical by their host government is a wonderful idea  (to you, as it is to me) but  is is busy destroying Europe's economies.  

Why?  because these agreements have become legally binding. Nations who do not comply and take migrants beyond their capacity are financially punished..... it turns out that these agreements  are NOT  'non-binding'. 

The Barcelona Declaration and the Lisbon agreement were also non-binding EU agreements. These brought about the EU you see today - full of Arab speaking migrants.. These agreements became legally binding with a few changes of clauses later on by a majority vote...... UN is following the same procedure and the precedent set by EU,  to bring in one world government under UN.

My personal stance is this: I love migrants- I preach to them..... and I do not take sides about the political and economic policies and how the world and EU  is financially and morally deteriorating  as a result of them.... I watch merely for trends, to see which of these trends are leading to an "image of the beast" having teeth....... and which countries will control the wealth as indicated in Daniel. 

It just happens that the communist ideals are taking over the world..... and most people are starting to support this 'beast'  in their thinking because 'equality' of gender, culture etc.  is a deceptive propaganda tool. - even EU and UN leaders are all atheist/communist in their ideas and speech. ...... Why, even all the billionaires and ruling elite in America like this new collectivist propaganda which will bring their wonderful ideas on unity, peace and security to fruition under the UN (or a coalition of 176 nations which will be centrally organized in dictatorial fashion..)

I watch it merely to determine how the trends are moving towards Armageddon..... that is all. I am not making political statements or siding with political ideologies. But  I do realize that "human plans" that will bring extreme suffering and pain to mankind are not the plans to ' free us'  but to "enslave'us to a totalitarian government under which we will not have freedom of religious choice.

 

Just saw this clip: 

 

 

[JW Insider]

On 2/9/2020 at 1:36 AM, Arauna said:

Within China - information from America and the outside world is being  restricted and also any negative  information from within China to the Chinese people 

That's true about information from America being restricted. Just like information from China and other information from the outside world that negatively impacts American propaganda is severely restricted here in America. Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook news accounts that report evidence against Western propaganda are blocked. Americans journalists and reporters who have lived in China and report on things that disagree with the propaganda are constantly having their accounts blocked and credentials restricted or removed. Good, in depth reporting is constantly being flagged as fake news. One of the things that investigative journalists have easily identified with overwhelming proof is the the fact that thousands of Twitter, YouTube and Facebook accounts are dormant for months at a time until, each time, when there is a "need" to counter a trend with Western propaganda or US State propaganda. Then these thousands of accounts are active for just enough time to begin creating a counter-narrative so that "fake" propaganda news begins to trend, supporting US/Western interests.

 When China restricts US and Western fake news (and porn) from their Internet service, it is considered extreme censorship. There are certain stories that must be continually exaggerated or made believable through constant repetition by the West. When there is a problem, you will often see Western leaders stoking the problem, providing weapons and methods of maximizing and turning riots into civil wars if possible. Western news and media services will usually play along, prioritizing negative news about China over all other news.

On 2/9/2020 at 1:36 AM, Arauna said:

I.e. this Carona virus is a good example:  the whistleblower doctor was forced to sign papers that restricted his talking and he was threatened with imprisonment. 

As in almost all such situations, I'm sure we could just about guarantee that at least a few local authorities acted harshly and incorrectly. We've seen those scenarios play out like that all over the world. But you are right that he wasn't imprisoned or killed by the government as many sources had reported. From what I heard, there were probably at least 8 "whistle blower" doctors in December, and one of them, an ophthamologist, died from the virus after several weeks. But China is still a relatively poor country with a lot of "backward" thinking. Some doctors used their positions, not as whistle blowers, but as fear-mongers, which makes it much harder for other doctors and medical personnel around them to act responsibly. In the midst of the worst part of the crisis it's easy for someone to go crazy and start thinking that it's too late to stop this thing, and this makes others give up or go crazy. There was plenty of negative outcry on social media among Chinese who blogged about it and posted and chatted about it. Some of the reports were welcomed because they pointed out areas where not enough help was being given, or where people were giving up in desperation. I believe that a lot of this was removed by authorities, much false information was removed, but much of the false information is still there. It seems like there was a focus mostly on doctors and authorities who had been giving out false or obsolete information.

On 2/9/2020 at 1:36 AM, Arauna said:

Why is Hong-Kong rioting? Because they want the 'new freedom' of China?

I saved a link to a very interesting interview in English from a Fox News reporter who was interviewing an elderly state department or CIA person who had worked in the G.H.W.Bush White House. The reporter was snickering at the fact that China was blaming a lot of the rioting on Western interference. The reporter asked the Bush expert to counter that "obviously false" narrative, but the old man said, something like "Well, No, they're actually right. We are in Hong Kong on this issue through several groups , including National Endowment for Democracy. . . . . . ."

He admitted about three American groups (known otherwise to be funded by the CIA) who were there instigating "democracy." I wished I had copied the whole interview, but I'd bet that someone saved it somewhere. It did make me look around myself for a bit and I quickly found several "damning" examples of what the former US official might have been referring to. (They are much harder to find right now.) I discovered photos of CIA leaders meeting with riot leaders. (I posted one under another topic already.) I also discovered that very sophisticated tactics that the CIA had taught in other countries were being implemented here.

This happened to match perfectly a more official source that included the following

A CIA-backed US foundation has been colluding with the heads of the recent Hong Kong riots with financial and strategic support, actions that Chinese experts said show the US' intention of "Americanization" which is endangering Hong Kong.

Sentaku, a Japanese monthly magazine, revealed in August how the foreign forces represented by the US, manipulate the Hong Kong chaos.

The magazine said that Hong Kong extremists received significant funding from the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), which it called "a CIA soft-power cutout that has played a critical role in innumerable US regime-change operations."

Under the Reagan administration in 1983, the NED was founded to "support democracy in other countries."

The NED's website shows that it granted $155,000 to the Solidarity Center (SC) and $200,000 to National Democratic Institute (NDI) for International Affairs for work in Hong Kong, and $90,000 to the Hong Kong Justice Center in 2018. NDI received $650,000 from 2016 to 2017, and SC received $459,865 from 2015 to 2017.

"US foundations like the NED have been promoting 'Americanization' around the world," Li Haidong, a professor at the China Foreign Affairs University's Institute of International Relations in Beijing, told the Global Times on Sunday.

According to Li, the foundation conducts "transformation" in various regions around the world tangibly and intangibly, but in fact it is a behind the scenes player for color revolutions. It is also the US' way of violating the internal affairs of other countries.

"This is a tradition of US diplomacy," Li noted. "The US does not even try to cover its goal of promoting 'Americanized' governance, which has now been proven a failure and is ridiculous."

Western forces have been directly or indirectly involved in the Hong Kong riots, Shi Yinhong, director of Renmin University of China's Center for American Studies in Beijing, told the Global Times on Sunday.

He noted that the interference also includes media promotion, which aims to encourage the protests to follow the desired direction. "The intention is obvious - to endanger Hong Kong and endanger China."

If you compare the US coverage of the "yellow vest" riots in Paris with the riots in HK, you can guess at the truth of that last sentence. For people who think the coverage is balanced, they should try to guess how many persons they believe have died in HK riots, and make another guess as to the number of persons who have died in the Paris riots. Then they should check the actual numbers.

[Kosonen]

This American man lives in China and he makes videos about how life is there. For example how he got in jail, and luckily got out without getting beaten up by cops.

 

[JW Insider]

On 2/9/2020 at 1:36 AM, Arauna said:

I know why you see nothing wrong in the UN  migrant compact of 2018..... and agenda 21.   

I never said I see nothing wrong with it. What I said is that whenever people have claimed that it says a certain thing, they will never point to the place where it says that certain thing. Instead, at best, they point to propaganda clips by persons known to promote controversial conspiracies. Some of those controversial conspiracies may well play out as they claim. They may end up being right even if they have always been wrong 100 percent of the time in the past. Even propaganda and conspiracies can be true, or come true, even if the "official" source of these conspiracies has been wrong or caught lying dozens of times in the past.

So it's not that I see nothing wrong, it's that no one points me to the place where they get their ideas from in the original materials they are complaining about. It's always secondary materials that are supposedly commenting on the original materials.

In the above statement I know you are focusing on the possibility that I am reading too much into the word "non-binding" when in practice, these ideas become "binding." That's not it at all. I'm talking about someone finding those actual claims in the actual documentation in the first place, not whether an idea was marked as non-binding or not. 

On 2/9/2020 at 1:36 AM, Arauna said:

The Barcelona Declaration and the Lisbon agreement were also non-binding EU agreements. These brought about the EU you see today - full of Arab speaking migrants.. These agreements became legally binding with a few changes of clauses later on by a majority vote...... UN is following the same procedure and the precedent set by EU,  to bring in one world government under UN.

I knew when this was a big controversy in Denmark, because my sister has lived in Copenhagen for more than 10 years. (Married to a Danish brother, and it still took 10 years of language lessons, and tests to get citizenship.) Her husband is very prejudiced against Arab speaking immigration (and pretends he isn't, of course) and you probably know that the Danish PM, and its 'foreign ministry' were involved in the controversy. But everything he claimed turned out to be what everyone else was saying about them, and that the "legally binding" laws were not about what was voted on by the UN (as implemented by the EU) but were always about what he HEARD not about what was actually in the laws and documents.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

This American man lives in China and he makes videos about how life is there. For example how he got in jail, and luckily got out without getting beaten up by cops.

I know about this man's videos. (Laowhy86) He sells his Western propaganda through YouTube. He uses the fact that he is/was married to a Chinese woman to his "advantage" but you will see him interviewing his own wife sometimes and she is not going along with his agenda. He pushes so hard that when she gives an inch he will make a big deal of it (and gets called out in the comments for what he is doing.) They are evidently in the middle of a divorce.

He actually doesn't live in China anymore. I hear he is back in America even though he still keeps a patreon account linked to his YouTube account to help him raise funds to get out. Much of what he has talked about has been made fun of by "Nathan Rich." Using the TTH method, I found Nathan Rich immediately after finding Loawhy86. But also tried to find someone who had an opinion about both of them. The next link is an example from someone who has followed both accounts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1vTYNRUb54

His stupidity is made clear by watching some of the things he said about the coronavirus in a couple videos. It's easy to get links to that, so I won't give them, but here is a link to what Nathan Rich has said, which isn't too long, but it does highlight some of the prejudices that outsiders have about China. Whether he is usually right or not, I can't say, but I like the fact that he documents evidence against some of the false claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSIt496d82s

Nathan Rich, in his smart-aleck way attacks some of the points made by people like laowhy86. I added it to this thread because I think it's the one where he shows how anti-China propaganda so commonly upholds Hong Kong as a bastion of wonderful government, while trying to compare it with the awful Beijing government. The distortion as I recall was obviously full of lies, which N.R. easily showed with just a few news headlines that exactly contradicted the rewriting of history intended by the other propagandist.

The best thing is never to trust either side to tell the whole truth, but use such items to ferret out the methods each side uses to try to get their ideology to "win" over the other. Do this enough, and you will realize that there are not just two sides. There are multiple sides with many things right and wrong on all these sides. 

 

[Arauna]

6 hours ago, Kosonen said:

American

I sometimes watch "China uncensored".... and there is a South African who lived there for many years who loved China but now had to leave.