Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

One must understand the period to understand why people accepted certain things.

I think i can understand.

If we would like to accept this for some, few individuals than we have accept this for all/every other individuals too. By this we can explain why Pope done this or that, and also why Rutherford done this or that.

By this i can understand why Moses made slavery, polygamy or else to be legal under power/in the name of God's commands and Law. Would you agree? 

 

[Arauna]

On 1/19/2020 at 6:57 PM, JW Insider said:

gradually erase national borders.

They are erasing borders:  by means of the UN migration compact 2018; this agreement echos the 'non-binding ' Barcelona Declaration 1995 signed by EU members. They are also redistributing wealth by means of the compact. Migrants have rights: they must receive a home (up to 4 wives have own accommodations ); free medical; food allowance, language lessons and help to  intigrate.

(As witnesses we believe in helping others and we do this willingly with love - so I personally do not complain). But as a political experiment it has been disastrous. Atheists really believe that redistributing wealth will make everyone happy.  They do not understand religion as a political ideology.  Murders, rapes etc have escalated.  Handgranades go off.  Churches vandalized every day, statues beheaded etc. (France had this happening before the Notre Dame was burnt) now Italy has the same.   Jews killed or maimed. And the press is gagged by the 2018 Compact agreement. Nothing negative may be written  about migration

This gag order reminds me of the time before the iron curtain came down.... Stalin took control of the press in eastern block countries.... and then literally took over the countries.  This is communist and  totalitarian tactics in the making. The UN is displaying its intentions. 

The so-called 'non-binding' agreements become binding. How?  Majority voting.   They change clauses after the initial agreements. It becomes binding. In EU now they threatened Hungary to deny it any of its funding.  They are trying to force it to take its quota of migrants. They will cut off trade etc. Hungary refused to sign the compact but it is majority rule that decides EU policy and it has jurisdiction.

Small countries like Sweden is reeling under the migration influx. The nationalists are growing in Europe and migrants was the main reason for Brexit.  The arbitrary instructions to take migrants. EU is like a dictatorship.... it controls quotas in farming etc....as well which impoverishes nations like Spain, Italy, Portugal etc.  One law for all when some countries cannot deal with it and it causes hardship.

EU is a good example of UN because their goals are aligned.

What does this indicate?  The EU and UN has shown their true colours. Watching parliament is scary because one realizes how many power-happy people are running these organizations..... 

 

 

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But extreme capitalism does not look like communism, it's the definition of fascism. Capitalism defended by a militaristic state is fascism.

I believe that the extremely rich on top and the workers at the bottom with no middle class makes communism and absolute capitalism end up with the same result.  Extremely rich dictators on top and the poor at the bottom.  In USA the middle class is disappearing and it is harder to get out of poverty. 

The global corporations in USA are now monopolies (they have not been held back) and hence now have too much power over all controlling bodies such as FDA, EPA etc. They also work with other oligarchs such as CCP in China. 

Facism is extreme nationalism with dictatorship.  We will see which way it goes... I think the global corporations are working towards globalization goals. 

These ideas I put down here are things to watch for. No-one can predict the future.... 

[TrueTomHarley]

26 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The global corporations in USA are now monopolies (they have not been held back) and hence now have too much power over all controlling bodies such as FDA, EPA etc.

They are incestuous, with execs freely migrating from regulatory agencies to the companies they are supposed to monitor, and then back again.

A favorite piece of interview from the movie ‘Inside Job’ about the 2007 Great Recession is an interviewer asking a business professor why, several years later, no exhaustive inquiries have been undertaken.

”Because then you will find the culprits,” the fellow said.

They go to the same country clubs and belong to the same social strata. They are not interested in turning upon one another. Do a little to have something to present the masses and then ‘on with the show.’

[Arauna]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's the reason that the United States has chosen to destroy nations like North Korea and Vietnam and Libya and Syria and Venezuela and Nicaragua and even much smaller nations, more defenseless than those.

North Korea is a totalitarian dictatorship with its citizens starving most of the time. A shocker for me two years ago was the soldier which defected. He would not have survived longer if he did not defect..... he had so many different kinds of  parasites in his body. This tells you the condition of their soldiers..... and how they care for the soldiers they put on TV parades with the face of the dictator everywhere. 

Venezuela has oil. It should be a rich country.... but a benevolent socialist  dictator brought the poor out if poverty....(he did well on that ) . but then he went further and nationalized all assets and became communist.  He died - The next dictator put the nail in the coffin of the system... Communism killed Venezuela- not America.  It is a bad system of governance. I equate it with feudalism. This is the system the UN is proposing.... a kind of feudalism to get control of the environment..

While I do not support any form of human government - I do evaluate what they do.... and I do not think it is conspiracy when I say I foresee a terrible future for the world if these plans comes to fruition.   That is all. Hopefully jehovah steps in before it goes too far. 

I do believe that some scientists are lying about the environment in their so-called studies.  I believe the biosphere has tremendous problems and geo-engineering is definitely going on to cover up the problems. The forests are being dessimated by China and those still in existence are drying out.  The roots are so dry that new saplings are not sprouting up. Leaves are dry. There are fires in Siberia and Sweden. The Himalaya' s glaciers (Bhuthan is facing severe threats) are melting and forming lakes. When these start to burst and brim over thousands of lives and farming land will be lost. There are islands going under in Maldives.... Too much to mention. 

[Arauna]

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

China's

Yes China has become or will soon be the number one economy in the world. Communism can uplift more people because it has centralized decision- making and can get rid of all opposition. There is no freedom of expression, religion etc. The state decides what you should know and do.

 In the last 3 years China is tightening the screws. Foreigners are leaving in droves. It does not like foreign teachers of English because ideas of freedom could be exchanged. China's 20 year stint in capitalism enriched it.  I call it communism with a face-lift (a slight deviation). Unfortunately many of its poor were working like slaves- 18 hours a day and living in cluttered hostel rooms- terrible conditions.. These people were like expendable fodder to the regime - like the 1million Muslims now in camps with their children separated from them in re-education schools.  Many die. 

 US companies relocated to china for cheap labour and helped to rebuild China while US factories were closing in USA. China stole the intellectual property and is now improving on it.  They do not need anyone any longer. They are building their own supersonic  weapons, rockets, aircraft carriers, new islands in the south China sea and taken over fishing rights etc. They use body parts of religious and Falun gong citizens for transplants - 10 thousand per year.

Yes, I can talk about the rapid "upliftment" but this is not what communism is known for. It is known for its totalitarian control and a disrespect for life. Play or pay. The CCP is returning China back to the fundamental communist ideas. 

There is not free will or choice.  Education for all - that is good - but it is an indoctrination vehicle from young age. They now have the social credit system with surveillance everywhere

In Russia,  Perestroika/glasnost brought forth a new brand of communism. It allowed the orthodox church so it can help build nationalism.  The centralized government has oligarchs who play ball.  If not- they land up in prison and their assets taken.  In the  last 20 years human rights lawyers and investigative journalists were just shot on the street or found dead. 

Russia is not poor - its industry is larger than I at first anticipated.  It builds washing machines, all kinds of equipment. Global companies have factories in Russia for shampoo, soaps, hair colorants etc. I see the well known western brands in our shops but they are made in Russia.   Industry is flourishing. I think they even make Heinz tomato sauce.

Russia and China are now a formidable block to be reckoned with. They are like a wild card in the mix...... making unthinkable alliances with Muslim countries etc.

They have agreements for oil, gas, satellite cooperation etc

USA has been outplayed..... the trump card is not Trump's to hold.

[Kosonen]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. How can it be said of an American city that “in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth?” “All those who have been slaughtered on the earth?”

I just draw the conclusion that it must be a litteral great city, because that is the explanation Revelation itself gives. The prostitute and the beast are the symbols, but the great city is the litteral thing. 

Just look once more, please, at the wording in the scripture that gives the definition in Revelation 17:18: "And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

That is the clue to understand what the woman, the prostitute Babylon the Great means.

But back to your question, how can it be said that one city is guilty to all the blood that has been shed on earth?

That is sort of hyperbole, similar to the statment Jesus said in Luke 11:49 "That is why the wisdom of God also said: ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, and they will kill and persecute some of them, 50  so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be charged against this generation, 51  from the blood of Abel+ down to the blood of Zech·a·riʹah, who was killed between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation.

But the problem with that great city is not the location itself of course. But it is the ruling class of that city. Because Revelation 18:23 says "and by your spiritistic practices all the nations were misled."

That indicates that the ruling class of that city are involved in spiritism. What do we know about spiritistic practices of the ruling class? It is well known that in USA and other places the influencial people have usually joined masonic secret societies. And there they practice spiritism. Through masonic societies the ruling class in USA have a strong grip over the kings of the earth. 

And the masonic cult is ancient according to their own words, and they have through thousands of years spured kings of empires to war.  Revelation 17: 9-11 explains this feature, that the depraved spiritistic woman, Babylon the Great has been present at the emperors of the great empires of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rom. Looks like USA is regarded as a modern extension of the Roman empire, the sixth "king". And then after that the seventh empire will rule for a short time, 42 months as it is revealed in Revelation 13:1,2,5: "And it [the dragon] stood still on the sand of the sea. And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems, but on its heads blasphemous names. 2  Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like those of a bear, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority. ......5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months.

Revelation 17:9-11: "This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top.  And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction."

So as a conclusion to the question how Babylon the Great is guilty to all those who have been slaughtered on earth? That is because the ruling class of Babylon the Great are part of ancient spiritistic masonry and they have spured kings to bloody wars though out history. 

For example in Egypt in Moses' time the Pharaoh had magicians who influenced him. In Babylon when Daniel was there, there were also all kinds of magicians counceling Nebucadnessar. 

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

19 hours ago, Arauna said:

. . . most Americans view the world only through American eyes . . .

Yes. How can it be said of an American city that “in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth?”

Good point. And to Arauna's point, most "Westerners" view the world only through "Western" eyes. The news about various countries in the world sounds almost the same in France, UK, Australia, Canada, Japan, US, Germany, etc.

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

As near as I can tell, JWs swallow them [conspiracies] in no greater proportion than the overall world.

And probably get taken in much less than the overall world due to neutrality, disinterest in low priority secular things, general avoidance of non-JW Internet sites. We've got our own priorities to be concerned about. (Although I'm sure this forum would make many wonder about myself and others.)

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

One fact that flies in the face of Russia being the belligerent king is that America bombs more countries than he. . . . when Bob’s Bomb Company has become a huge enterprise with stockholders that must be fed or they will go elsewhere, Bob sends lobbyists to Washington to promote the view—and spread money around liberally to those who pick up on it—that the world is an extraordinarily dangerous place of countless enemies that must be kept in check—and as it turns out, ‘we build just the products to facilitate that.’ The lobbyists are not there primarily to hawk Bob’s Bombs over Bill’s Bombs—they are there to foment rising waters that will float all boats.

Important point about Russia not being as belligerent as America. This has been true for decades. While America hyped Russia's conflicts in Afghanistan and Georgia and now Ukraine, America would never hype the fact that America has been caught fomenting trouble in Ukraine, Iraq, Iran, even Hong Kong with CIA operatives, while amassing bases and missiles and ships all along the borders in Eastern Europe, the Mideast, the southern border of North Korea, creating coups and wars in Africa, Central and South America, etc. Another irony is that while deploring Russia's involvement in Syria, America doesn't report (except once accidentally and then quickly walked back) the number of US troops that had already invaded and who have been sitting inside Syria's borders all along, uninvited, based in the oil-rich areas of Syria, where America has been (and still is) controlling the flow of a majority of Syria's oil. America constantly discusses the threats of various other countries, while America is already overrunning and bombing countries to create death, chaos, and instability. Now, one of the problems is that it turns out that military lobbyists have been pushing various planes, radar systems, and defensive weapons that don't work very well. And while this was always a way to keep countries buying upgrades, now some of those buyers are looking to buy from Russia and China for various defensive weapons, because they don't trust the American weapons as they once did.

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is little different with a host of other industries—tobacco, food, pharma, for instance—they reach the point where they must keep that money rolling in and then they do things to that end without regard to effect on the consumer or general society. I do not follow anything on Twitter without following its polar opposite, and in this way I have come to feel that some ‘conspiracy theories’ are actually much better argued that the mainline, which often just says that ‘we’ve got this locked up’ and shouts down whoever would challenge it. As you point out, the large internet firms are also going this way—agreeing to whatever nasty terms this or that government lays down—just to expand their reach.

You must be like a "Beroean" on Twitter. Too bad there is no perfect method. And then there are the bots which flood one end or the other of your polar opposites and try to create trends and skews. There is another method of ruining any method of gathering accurate news sources, which many hope to get through Twitter/FB, and that's the inclusion of purposeful creation of "chaos" disguised as plain and simple truth in mainstream media. (Trump tweets, NYTimes, Vox, Vice, CNN, Fox, MSNBC) 

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

As to Hitler positioning himself in his pre-1933 days, the GreatCourses professor on American history refers to a “low-level anti-semitism” that was almost universal prior to WWII—and in many parts of the world, not so low-level—so that picking up on it would be no more controversial than breathing air.

Much more to be said on this. Might come back to it later.

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Okay, okay—olive branch here. I was in an atypical mood at the time, rethinking some things in view of yesterday WT article.

I'm sure I sounded a bit harsher than I meant to. If I made it sound like a big problem, I didn't mean to. For me this is not a controversy. Rutherford was just plainly wrong on this. Doesn't change the fact that he was right on so many other things. But I have to ask. Do you really think any of this information is applicable to paragraphs 8 and 11 of yesterday's Watchtower? Those WT paragraphs were about "lies" and "apostate lies." This is just information, hopefully honest and unvarnished. Also, one of the scriptures in the Study was Isaiah 54:17:

17  No weapon formed against you will have any success, . . .

A shield of knowledge will help us blunt the effect from anyone who tries to weaponize this information. But sometimes the actual shield for our faith will merely take the form of honesty and humility, and accepting the humanity of those taking the lead among us. If something turns out to be true, we don't want to be too quick to just reject is as false because we don't like the sound of it. 

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But that’s not really the same as accepting it right here on the worldwide media network forum

I was only referring to the principle of not accepting something as true without multiple "witnesses" of evidence, documentation, speeches, etc. For me it meant that I wouldn't want to put something out here as fact unless I had personally done a good amount of due-diligence. It wasn't about whether anyone else should read and accept what someone puts on this forum and accepts it just because it includes multiple instances of evidence. Until someone already "knows" or looks up evidence for themselves, all they have looked at here is just someone's opinion about the evidence. 

[TrueTomHarley]

42 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Do you really think any of this information is applicable to paragraphs 8 and 11 of yesterday's Watchtower? 

No. More on this later as well.

[Anna]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Do you really think any of this information is applicable to paragraphs 8 and 11 of yesterday's Watchtower?

I'm glad you bring this up. I sat there, of course thinking about this forum, and other forums, or things I have read from so called apostates, and I could not in all honesty agree with labeling everything lies. More than anything, it is criticism of the org. especially its leadership, and dredging up past mistakes. Not all of this is lies. I would say only about 10% might be lies. Some very blatant obvious lies like that we don't care about our children. I would say that those type of lies are extremely obvious and easily understood to be lies. Anyway, I don't want to get into this here as it is off topic, but I would like to address this somewhere else....maybe the closed club...?

[JW Insider]

59 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Wow! Only your opinion matters. People must convince you before you call it the truth. That is hilarious since "due diligence" is not part of a governed criteria for good research here by most of you.

That's funny. It says exactly the opposite of 'only my opinion matters.' It says that no one should have to believe what I say because, even when I have done my own due-diligence and put what I have researched on here with evidence, that it's still really just my opinion about the evidence. I expect that TTH understood what I said, but I really should have rewritten it. I worded it rather convolutedlylike.

59 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

You accused TTH earlier of trying to "exonerate Rutherford

Another problem in the understanding of what I said. I didn't accuse TTH of trying to exonerate Rutherford. I only pointed out that asking that particular question he asked about what goals of JFR that JFR thought were identical with Hitler's is a question that is very "bad" if TTH was trying to exonerate Rutherford.

(And the reason was that Hitler was already well known around the world for about 5 goals. And JFR managed to make it appear that he was aligned with 3 of those 5.)

 

[TrueTomHarley]

58 minutes ago, Anna said:

and I could not in all honesty agree with labeling everything lies.

They didn’t just say lies. They said lies and distortion of facts.

Is it outright lies that we deal with here? Not so much. Is it distortion of fact? For the most part, yes.

”Distortion of fact” encompasses a lot and much of what it encompasses is in the eye of the beholder. If a point, in the overall scheme of things, is really quite insignificant, and it is made to seem all-important, is that not a distortion of fact? 

Suppose the spies that I have sent out under Allen’s prompting report back to me with a dossier of JWI’s private life that includes a few exasperating habits of his, like nose-picking. Suppose too that he has had one of two regretful episodes in his life that he would rather not broadcast. Suppose he flunked out of some school or was fired from some job. Suppose he made a few judgements as family head that blew up in his face—not only his face but the faces of those in his family. Suppose he let down brothers in the congregation at one time or another, and even stumbled one or two.

”Ah, here comes Allen, now.....Hi Allen, what do you have?....hmmmm......oh my...yes....hm......whoa! look at that. Looky looky looky” 

Now suppose with my voluminous commenting privileges I never again fail to focus on one or all of these blunders, and I dismiss as inconsequential whatever good others point out that he has done, even though these matter plainly be what defines his life. Am I not distorting facts? Have I told any lies? No. Have I distorted any facts? I have done nothing else.

[Arauna]

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

John Bolton was angry at China for using tactics in Africa that made local populations "prefer" China

China is going to the leaders and bribing them. It is a system of  "predatory loans" . John Bolton does not have the facts about the tactics. For every million they "lend" there are millions of bribes. Just like first world country leaders who are in China and treasonly getting "perks for their own pockets,  these african, Asian, south American leaders put the money in their own pockets and sign agreements for ports etc.... they have no need for.  When the port is built (by china) then China wants payment. When countries cannot afford to pay, China has them sign a 100 year lease.  China has taken over mines, ports, airports, forests, all kinds of assets.  They send their "friendly" police in to protect their newly acquired assets and write stories in newspapers promoting china. South africa's police is learning Chinese in cultural exchange but In Kenya someone saw toilets for Chinese only. ....and a few years back china shot Zambian miners in their own country because they wanted better wages!   

The silk road leading to Georgia- is being built in same way...... countries are having to pay for something they did not want .... but their leaders were bribed..... then the asset becomes property of china.  China annexed a gold mine in one of the countries ...... after outcry they had to give it back....... u til they control the area.  China had a 20 year plan - expansion and colonisation..

Propaganda is the main tool of communism  and suppression of the truth.   Communism is an ugly beast and so is extreme capitalism.... both lead to oppression,  suppression of the truth, bribes or lobbying  and in the end - a nasty oppression of all citizens, except the priviledged and leaders. Life in such a system becomes worthless. This is why I realize the world is going one way - to a fulfillment of final prophecy,.  Evil technology development together with climate change are a few more nails in the coffin.

The upliftment in China comes at a terrible cost..... extreme suffering of the poor. Property taken away,  women having forced abortions and sterilization by the state. Incarceration etc. Life is worth nothing and human rights do not exist. This is why Hong Kong is resisting China...... but for how long?  Chinas government has its spies in Australia, USA and keep Chinese students in check in other countries..... I can go on and on..,... 

America is hollow. The glory it had before is gone.... they still have a measure of freedom but because the youth and the older generation did not guard it, it is dissipating. The news is all theatre and entertainment - nothing substantial. A service oriented economy  and a consumerism and stocks which makes the economy appear normal. But it is not healthy.  

I believe that tremendous problems are coming whether trump wins or not.