Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

More than anything, it is criticism of the org. especially its leadership, and dredging up past mistakes. Not all of this is lies. I would say only about 10% might be lies.

I would agree, but I also should have included the idea of distortion of facts as TTH did. (And with an excellent illustration, I might add, which I read while picking my nose.)

But then again, I consider any purposeful distortion of facts to be a lie. It serves the same purpose, but even more nefariously. The "lie" is there, but it's in a hidden agenda.

Of course, it's a sword that can cut both ways. For example, our publications "dredge up" bits of historical information in every few issues of the Watchtower or every couple of years that will usually have the purpose of showing that prophecies from Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Revelation, etc were fulfilled among the leadership of this very organization. Sometimes the publications or broadcasts will include ideas about just how much better the leaders of our organization were at predicting 1914 decades in advance, or how much better we were than the Federal Council of Churches, or how we predicted the going off into the abyss of the League and its rise as the United Nations.

Sometimes it will then add the point that we should therefore 'trust the leaders of this organization, if we want to survive the great tribulation and Armageddon.' The point will sometimes be made that these predictions are 'proof of guidance by Jehovah's unerring spirit.'

So the problem for persons who have done their due-diligence and looked up these "controversial" items for themselves --to see if these things were so-- is that some of those persons will come back with the idea that these are actually only 10 percent lies, but that still doesn't equate to 90 percent "true."  (See TTH's post.)

We know that the counsel by the GB is actually intended like a father to his children to help us stay out of danger. It might even be based on an exaggeration: "Don't go near those people because they always lie!" It doesn't mean every word is a lie, but the overall message probably is a lie. Their overall apostate message is probably "Don't trust the leaders of this organization, if you want to survive the great tribulation and Armageddon." Or, "These mistakes are proof of NO guidance by Jehovah's unerring spirit."

Obviously there are some here who are anxious to immediately twist anything said as quickly as possible into those apostate messages. And then there are those who might assume that anyone who continues to dredge up mistakes from the past is subtly trying to create those overall apostate messages which can be a by-product of dredging up past error -- without ever even making those apostate statements overtly. 

It's pretty clear that this is what Allen Smith's henchaccounts think I am doing on purpose. This is why I don't blame him for calling out what he thinks I am doing. It's also why I welcome his input, because it reminds those who have not done their due-diligence that this is NOT something to just accept because someone is stating it. It's just an opinion. Just because I will offer the reasons for my own opinion, and just because I personally accept my own opinion, doesn't mean that it couldn't be mistaken. I've been fooled before and I'll likely be fooled again. 

Sooner or later, though, people who do their Beroean due-diligence will end up facing some uncomfortable ideas that they may not be prepared for in the least. It's bad to have the rug pulled out from under you with nothing to fall back on. I personally believe we need a faith that doesn't rely so much on human leaders for validation. We can still appreciate the reasons for respecting human leadership, and for following direction from those taking the lead in the most important work, announcing Jehovah's Kingdom through Christ. But we don't need 2 out of 100 past predictions to come true. We don't even need prophecies that predicted events among the Watchtower's leadership in 1919, for example.

 

[Arauna]

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

what's reported by Western journalists, not just

I do not read propaganda on how wonderful China or communism is..... I grew up in Africa which is a real-life excellent example of communistic ideas and dictators. I speak to people who tell me how things are changing in China since the CCP consolidated under their leader.

I listen to foreigners who speak Chinese and have lived in China for at least 20 years (they have seen the economic growth phase of China and the start of the clamp down on freedoms). When they report, I listen,  because they know what they are talking about. Foreigners or foreign journalists who go to China are watched all the time or are a guest of the state... they can only do superficial reporting.

 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The only true solution to human governments is a government by God, God's Kingdom under Christ.

Absolutely.  Why I mention neo-communism (my word for the new communism) is that I see it spreading in the attitudes in the west - the atheism and post-modern thinking.  Once one has given way to this form of government there is no way of getting out from under it due to the oppressive nature of it.... and i think the entire world is heading this way..... to bring the conditions of hardship and oppression  the bible speaks about in time of end. It may happen differently by some twist of nature (literally). Lol.

[JW Insider]

46 minutes ago, Arauna said:

John Bolton does not have the facts about the tactics.

John Bolton did not admit all those common American tactics out loud, nor would he ever purposely say that China has not used these tactics -- even if they haven't. Bolton proved himself a liar on several occasions in the past, and I tend to tune him out when NPR, CNN or FOX is playing somewhere in the background. All Bolton explicitly said was that he was concerned that China's tactics are taking away former African friends and allies and diverting resources that America was once able to exploit more easily, because China uses different tactics that are attractive by comparison. You may or may not know some of the tactics America uses and/or former colonial powers in Africa have used for exploitation, but there is a concerted effort to try to pin those same exploitative tactics on China. I'm sure Bolton would gladly say that America has never used these tactics and only China uses these tactics if he thought he could get away with it. All he really said was that whatever tactics China is using, it is gaining them preference over America: that we are losing friends and they are gaining friends.

This has been a big problem with American anti-Chinese rhetoric for years now. China has like an 80+ percent  approval rating for its policies in Pakistan working together on ports, rairlrods, energy, trade. Nothing is altruistic of course, since China is helped by these same projects. But America is pushed out of the picture in Pakistan, since America is more militaristic and always wants to squeeze out resources and build military bases and have control over a country's finances, and makes countries pay for American corporations who take out much more profit for themselves. China wants the same resources in Africa that America does, but America has sometimes used its own military, or paid for death squads to keep cheap labor working when they complain about abuse, especially in mines.

So, when I hear things like all the military bases that China has built in Africa, I immediately check to see if they even have even one, and then I check to see how many the United States has. When I hear that China is using the old predatory loan scheme that America is famous for, I check to see if there is evidence they have even done this once. I've started to recognize that almost everything China is blamed for, might even be true to some extent, but it is nearly always a projection of what has been done in a much worse way by others.

[Arauna]

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

America has been caught fomenting trouble in Ukraine, Iraq, Iran, even Hong Kong with CIA operatives, while amassing bases and missiles and ships all along the borders in Eastern Europe, the Mideast,

True, we know all these facts.... the hypocracy, the disrespect for life, the military industrial complex at work.  America had the power and used it.....to bring untold suffering in other countries. Russia and China was building power in this time....... So what makes me think China and Russia will use their power to the full extent  when the have supremacy ?   The imperfect /wicked nature of mankind....

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Do you really think any of this information is applicable to paragraphs 8 and 11 of yesterday's Watchtower? Those WT paragraphs were about "lies" and "apostate lies

If you had to advise a child... would you let them watch?  Many new ones do not have the discernment needed to see where the deceit lies.  The advice is the best they can give because all would not listen in any case.

[JW Insider]

49 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I do not read propaganda on how wonderful China or communism is

I don't either. I try to get information from original sources when possible, leaks, info from FOIA requests, even those we are not supposed to see, anti-Chinese criticisms that come from pro-Chinese sources, and pro-Chinese admissions that come from generally anti-Chinese sources. The best "gems" come from researching items that come from sources which apparently slip up and accidentally admit the opposite of their usual agenda. (Such as the Bolton interview I heard.)

Here's an innocuous example: Let's say that a person who generally writes anti-Chinese propaganda says something like, "well it's true that China has a 5 percent GDP growth rate this year, but this already represents a slowdown and presents a better picture than it can probably maintain, because [trade tarriffs, high debt, etc. etc.] . . . " 

In the above, we can be pretty sure that the 5 percent growth rate has a high chance of being correct, or even understated, because it was admitted to be true, even when the person probably didn't want to admit it. Further research would show that the actual rate had been 6 percent, and that it really was a "slowdown" -- but a slowdown that is still twice as fast as the US growth rate. International financial newspapers and magazines which I used to get at work all the time were always full of "surprises" like this to help you build up a picture from such items. A reader has to be skeptical at all times, of everone on every side of an issue, and do this a lot, to get a better overall picture. 

[Arauna]

20 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

concerted effort to try to pin those same exploitative tactics on China. I'm sure Bolton would gladly say that America has never used these

I think the world is not aware how badly China is exploiting resources in Africa and south America..... the european colonies or USA  never went this far.  ..... I guess because there still was abundance at the time. China is taking all that is left.

 I saw footage of trees (large circumference - old trees)  on hundreds of trucks standing in line ready to leave for the port to China.  Kenia's forests are being dessimated and animal habitat ruined - no cry from Green Earth or one of those organizations.  

Recently saw 3 lion prides - shot dead and paws cut off for the Chinese market.  I cannot explain to you the revulsion I felt to these people who have no respect for what we have left on earth.   China is now the new world consumer..... and it does not respect animal life. It eats anything and everything.  all in front of it. They do not have christian-judeo conscience.  Speak to people who have lived there for a number of years  - they have no compassion to the western degree.  

They will not stop the exploitation until nothing is left.

[JW Insider]

24 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I saw footage of trees (large circumference - old trees)  on hundreds of trucks standing in line ready to leave for the port to China.  Kenia's forests are being dessimated and animal habitat ruined - no cry from Green Earth or one of those organizations. 

Sad, and very sad about the lions, too.

25 minutes ago, Arauna said:

They do not have christian-judeo conscience.  Speak to people who have lived there for a number of years  - they have no compassion to the western degree.  

You might be happy to know that I will stop discussing politics (China, communism, etc.) for a while. But I'd love to continue discussing some of these ideas at a later time. I should probably move all the political comments into a more appropriate topic area, at least I should move the posts that had so little to do directly with this topic of Babylon the Great. But I won't do that for a while, and I hope you will feel free to continue adding your thoughts.

[Arauna]

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But I won't do that for a while, and I hope you will feel free to continue adding your thoughts.

Thanks, you are kind....   I have been spending way too much time on here.... I will start to wrap up.... 

I like these topics and they are a little irresistible....because iron sharpens iron ..... but reality calls.  

[Witness]

There are 66 books in the Bible.  65 of them speak of those in relationship with God – those in covenant with him.  If nations were involved, they were nations that affected God’s people directly. From Adam, to Abraham…Moses, the nation of Israel, Jews, Jesus, to spiritual “Israel” -  all pages of the Bible are directed towards God’s people in covenant.   Why would the last book that speaks of the most difficult era before death is destroyed, (1 Cor 15:26) have anything to do with nations not under covenant with God, and are not cognizant of who “Israel” is?    One book, out of 66.

Your Armageddon teachings say that all nations will be destroyed because of their sins, and the organization of 8 million people will be left to enter into “paradise”.  Your teachings project that God will protect you, despite of all of the WATCHTOWER’S sins; sins that are no different than those being committed by all other organization.  The magazine’s illustrations depict JWs coming under attack and Christ stepping in with his angels to physically kill armies of the nations, who are apparently coming against YOU, an “innocent” people.  Lo and behold, all are saved at the last moment.

When I speak of the sins of the WT, I hear a complaining spirit saying, “where is God’s mercy?”  I ask, where is the understanding of God’s justice in the mind of a JW?  It is totally apparent that the organization as a whole, has no sense of it, or the gravity of its own sins.  God’s people under covenant are His focus – “Israel”, the anointed ones of “New Jerusalem” (Gal 4:26)   Yes, Satan will cause horrendous destruction, but Revelation is about the “great city” that has always been the topic of the Bible.  It doesn’t change with the 66^th book; what changes is the spiritual perspective. 

Matt 5:35 -  or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.

Beautiful in its loftiness,
    the joy of the whole earth,
like the heights of Zaphonis Mount Zion,
    the city of the Great King.  Ps 48:2

“How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers.”  Isa 1:21

The WT has given JWs a hint of who the Harlot and “great city” of Revelation is, but it remains unseen.   As even your leaders admit, Jerusalem is Jerusalem, and it doesn’t apply to Christendom.  They have erased the teaching of an “anti-typical” Jerusalem.   The “great city” spoken of in Revelation is that city which bears God’s name. 

“See, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that bears my Name, and will you indeed go unpunished? You will not go unpunished, for I am calling down a sword on all who live on the earth, declares the Lord Almighty.’  Jer 25:29

What city is greater than Zion, than Jerusalem?

Do JWS really believe that all in the WT who “share” in the Harlot’s (GB) sins will go unpunished?  Rev 18:4-8  Is the organization somehow impervious to destruction no matter what they do or by who, in Satan’s world?  That would be an awesome idol of great power that dares to stand against God’s judgments.  

People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”  Rev 13:4

“When you cry out for help, let your collection of idols save you! The wind will carry all of them off, a mere breath will blow them away. But whoever takes refuge in Me will inherit the land and possess my holy mountain”  Isa 57:13

“Then I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.  Rev 17:6

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!”  Luke 13:34

Who is that “woman”/Harlot who spiritually “kills” the anointed ones for their testimony to Jesus”?

“The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time?    But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk.”  Luke 12:42,45

Surely, that should answer it.  It is your GB with "her" army of elders. 

“The second beast (false prophet/Harlot)  was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast (“spirit-directed organization”) , so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.”  Rev 13:15

When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. ⁸ And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also ^[c]our Lord was crucified.

The “great city” is not found in Christendom or in the world.  No nation has as its target, the anointed ones, when not even JWs know who they are. 

Although Satan does, who is seen as using DECEIT in the last book of the Bible, to destroy them.

“Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison ⁸ and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. ⁹ They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. ¹⁰ The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.  Rev 20:7-10

If all JWs have their eyes fixed in anticipation of living out the movie of Armageddon produced by your leaders, where is the deceit that the “saints”/anointed succumb to? 

It is in another movie; one that JWs are part of each day of their lives – the organization.   

Unless the Lord of hosts
Had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom,
We would have been made like Gomorrah.  Isa 1:9

“And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. ⁸ And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.”  Rev 11:7-8

Any JW anointed or not, who has been disfellowshipped, knows clearly that they are considered “dead”. 

 

 

 

 

 https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/05/a-letter-i-received-hi-sister-pearl-i.html

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And with an excellent illustration, I might add, which I read while picking my nose

Another illustration—this one i gave at the meeting when it was my turn to comment—was that if there is someone in the audience who hates beets, I will not be able to argue with him that beets taste good. It is something that is beyond the scope of argument and I am proving myself pretty dense if I persist in trying. In the same way, the verse says: “Taste and see that Jehovah is good.” Some have tasted and seen that he is bad. It’s not something that does anyone any good to argue about. 

My 30 seconds were up and you can’t keep raising your hand like a jack-in-the-box. But if I was to extend the thought here I might point out that I love cake. It tastes good. That’s why I love it. Imagine my surprise upon coming here on the WNMF and discovering some dissing cake. How is that possible? Upon probing, I find that it is because the sweetness of sugar does nothing for them, so they just drop down a notch and focus on how you can get cavities and put on weight with cake. Well, yeah—if sugar did nothing for me, I too would drop down the list and harp on these other things.

So it is with the ‘sugar’ of the Bible’s message. This is what does it for Jehovah’s Witnesses—that unique combination of accurate Bible teachings along with the united brotherhood that comes with it—a unity and love unparalleled—and a satisfaction of knowing that one is cooperating with God’s intent of declaring his name and purposes. But if for some reason none of that should matter anymore, than what is there left than to drop down a level and promote some complaints to first place? It is what the opponents here do. Is that not a distortion—the reprioritizing of facts? We tend to carry on here as though facts are islands unto themselves. They’re not. They are more like the ingredients of a cake—they work together. One’s appreciation for the baked product will depend entirely upon one’s taste for the different ingredients. 

We’re a little nuts when we come on here and quibble over facts, (nobody does this more than me) as though individual facts in themselves were what clinches the deal. Instead, it it the prioritization of facts that matters. Seldom is it that people argue with no facts at all. It is which ones they choose to focus on and which ones they choose to downplay or even ignore that matters. 

And that is of facts that are presented accurately—as many are not. For example, a Pew survey lists Jehovah’s Witnesses as bringing up the bottom of the income chart—collectively they are the financially poorest. A fact? Yes. Opponents take that fact to suggest that Witnesses are deadbeats, some by nature, and some made so by a controlling organization. A distortion? I think so. When I wrote a post on the topic I stated that, in view of what the Bible consistently says about money and the love of money, any group not toward the bottom of that list has reason to hang their head in shame. Their high placement affords proof that they do not practice what they preach and they do not trust what the Lord says.

As to the WT’s own statement, ‘lies and distortion of facts’ might be more technically accurate if rephrased as ‘distortion of facts and lies’—I am not necessarily a fan of how the warning is made—but in the end, is it not the same thing? Consider:

”Is it really so that?”  (a distortion of truth, designed to plant doubt)

”You will not die.” (a lie—nothing but)

”for God knows that in the very day of your eating from it...” (a bit of both, but mostly a distortion, for it impugns God’s motives)

More is distortion than outright lie. But it amounts to the same thing. In fact, the distortion is worse than the lie, in most cases, for without the distortion to ‘prime the pump’ the lie itself will often be spotted and rejected out of hand. 

Who does the fellow with the ink horn mark on the forehead? Those who are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things done in God’s name. Some aren’t. They aren’t marked for that reason. In no case is any lie being told. Even the distortion of truth is not immediately apparent. But it is there. People made in God’s image should be sighing and groaning over the detestable things done in God’s name. And sighing and groaning is not the same thing as bitching and complaining—plenty of that around here.

 

 

[Arauna]

11 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

really so that?”  (a distortion of truth, designed to plant doubt)

”You will not die.” (a lie—nothing but)

Just an interesting thought to think about: maybe Satan, who used the most cautious creature, used the snake to bite the fruit.  Then the snake did not die....then the beast spoke (something she had not seen before) and he said God was withholding knowledge from her... and she saw it speaking!  .....maybe this helped to deceive her...... 

There are people who come here who have axes to grind....with GB or org.  They come in sly ways to sow seeds of doubt.  They will do it the way satan did.... turned himself into helpful creature with poisonously nice words.  

[TrueTomHarley]

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

There are people who come here who have axes to grind....with GB or org.  They come in sly ways to sow seeds of doubt. 

Too often we play their game. Given the facts that they choose to focus upon, they are exactly right, It is the choice of facts that is significant—which ones are promoted, which ones are inflated, which ones are downplayed, which ones are ignored, and which ones are declared not facts at all.

The Word makes clear from the get-go that those who serve love and serve God in the manner he directs and those who do not will have dramatically different ways of looking at things. They will have dramatically different goals in life. Once in a while (or even more than once in a while) apostates are pure loons. Once in a while (or even more than once in a while) some of us are. But for the most part, both groups act consistently with the facts that they choose to focus upon.

It is really impossible to successfully argue against their facts without also arguing against their priorities, their “tastes.” And since the latter is plainly impossible, it does make one reassess one’s time spent in doing so.