Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.

[Arauna]

On 1/18/2020 at 10:26 PM, JW Insider said:

"The outstretched hand of the Communist party to the Catholic people remains outstretched."

Talking of conspiricies..... if they do not exist then we must remove the word from our dictionary...... Wicked mankind and even the good have conspired and often on a larger scale than we realize.

There were massive conspiricies in the catholic church, so much so that Jesuits were banned from becoming Pope........ and now we have a Jesuit Pope...... 

Conspiricies are not all "bad or wicked" - in the sense that those with too much money and influence really believe in themselves that they are "good" and doing things for the people. It is easy to deceive yourself if you benefit by it in some way and in the end control other peoples destinies.  Corporations are now deciding our future with the policies they lobby for and secretly fund.

The catholic church has always conspired...... made secret political agreements. It was rich and had influence which is now waning. 

The illuminati was a real conspiracy which had satanic sources. It was caught out and was disbanded but was the source several other secret groups. It's way of management (a circular form of hierarchy - not triangular) is still used by secret organizations today. People join a world-wide charity and do not know who is at the top. This is why JW's are protected from them because we are cautioned not to get involved in the world.

It seems Rutherford knew about some secret catholic conspiracies going on.....and he had some things right even though it was way too early........  but because it was not yet  the time for fulfillment - he got it wrong. Does not mean to say the church will not be involved in the time of the end. I believe we are in the end of the time of the end......and the church is taking on a visual role to further the kind of peace the UN is promoting. 

The "man of lawlessness"  -  christendom who do not teach jehovahs ways - their lawlessness will be exposed.  The church is approving LGBTQ and UN policies - that is lawless from Jehovahs perspective.  Most churches are voting to accept LGBTQ.

Satan is a deceiver and conspiracies are on wall street, politics, banking, child trafficking, etc. Etc. Only the top of the iceberg gets exposed.

I was shocked to discover how Cecil John Rhodes took over all south African gold and diamonds (one of richest companies in the world) and at his death -  the money was given to (I hope I remember correctly) seven secret organizations which now still have great influence on the finances of the world!  (America included).  It was a white supremacist British conspiracy!

The City of London is like the Vatican with it's own representative in parliament. This is where most of the world's secret financial transactions are done..... money offshore etc.  They do not fall under the laws of the country...,, that was also an eye opener.  Lots of conspiring deals going on there! This has been going on since the period when Britain became a naval world power and stripped all the colonies of their riches......( the same that China is doing now.)

Old money - from the times of Venice, the Dutch east India company and money from privateering in English colonialism - these rich old families still control vast wealth.  Many are influential in politics in England and USA and do political deals that benefit themselves. 

All is not as honest and without corruption as it seems on the surface - dig a little deeper and you will find there is a buddy system amongst the extremely rich..... deals going on all the time. The FED in USA and the usuary systems in EU was part of private deals (conspiracy?)  

 

On 1/18/2020 at 10:26 PM, JW Insider said:

still overrun all the nations of the earth.

Only if the totalitarian

Because he understood that Satan could visibly be ruling the earth in totalitarian way through people who would be inadvertantly  working with him ..... he predicted this.....way too early of course..... but I see it happening right now..... 

 

[JW Insider]

@Arauna, I think it's just like @TrueTomHarley already indicated. Some conspiracies are going to turn out to be true. And, like I said before: almost all conspiracies have a lot of truth in them or they wouldn't work; they wouldn't get very far. Making up a counter-conspiracy is often the way to hide a true conspiracy.

And conspiracies should never surprise us if we are aware of the "machinations" of the Devil.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

That's a very bad question if you are trying to exonerate JFR here.

I don’t like the tone, for I am not particularly trying to do that. Rather, the statement suggests to me that you are trying to condemn him.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

He had been an intelligence officer in WWI.

As Putin had been a KGB officer before ascending to power?

I went out of my way in Dear Mr Putin not to demonize the Russian President, as most in the West does, and you praised me for it—not for Putin specifically, but for writing a book that did not reflect the common Western perception of Russia. I did that so as to build a bridge to any Russian authority, should they ever read it. In that probably unlikely event, I wanted the the result to be of benefit to the brothers and not make it harder for them.

”Knew or should have known” appears to be the permanent yeartext of this world, I’m not sure I want to play that game.

[Arauna]

On 1/19/2020 at 1:56 AM, Kosonen said:

The "disgusting thing " can hardly be Ligue of Nations or UN. The "disgusting thing" should be some kind of idol.

I have found that most Americans view the world only through American eyes and this gives them a  myopic view of the world.  

There is a massive globe out there and ALL countries if the earth will lose their governments, financial system and their religion to be replaced by Jehovahs one government and true worship to jehovah.

While the Anglo- American government is the 7th head and mentioned separately in Revelation as the lamb with 2 horns,  it indicates the "image of the beast " will be the eighth king (UN and its coalitions) and in this time the image of the beast will turn against the harlot (which represents the world empire of false religion).

New York or the destruction of only the catholic church in Rome  will merely be another major change on the world scene. It will not herald in the situation called Armageddon. Armageddon will be a major global upheaval wherein the entire human ruling and religious system will fall into dysfunction and self- destruction........ If jehovah does not step in - no flesh will be saved.

[JW Insider]

35 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That's a very bad question if you are trying to exonerate JFR here.

I don’t like the tone, for I am not particularly trying to do that.

You may have noticed that the last time this came up on the forum, I stayed away from these details of the JFR/Hitler discussion, but I thought I remembered that you had already made a similar point in a previous discussion:

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

NO! he was referring to the feel-good cumbaya boiler-plate high principles that every human agency that  comes down the pipe promises and fails to deliver because of their insistence to do it by human thinking and not God’s!

Certain ones have commented with some disapproval —I think you have been one of them—at the seeming ‘need’ of the organization to diss anything that does not come from them. Here you seem to be holding them accountable for not doing just that.

I wanted to show the reasons that this particular case should not be compared (in my opinion) with a practice of dissing just anything that doesn't come from the organization. These details were in response to the idea that Rutherford might have been referring just to the feel-good principles and promises of a typical politician. I took the above quote to that effect as your "defense" of Rutherford's specific actions in this regard, even if it wasn't particularly what you were trying to do.

35 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Rather, the statement suggests to me that you are trying to condemn him.

I'm not at all trying to condemn Rutherford generally. Listening closely to his speeches and known writings, you can tell he has a love for Jehovah, and a strong faith that Jehovah will act on behalf of righteous people. Most everything I read from his writing and speeches is perfectly fine. But I am trying to condemn this conduct shown "here" on this matter. Absolutely!

By his own words he condemns his own actions here, on this particular matter.

We should never use two different scales, even when judging matters of this life about a distinguished and respected member of the Governing Body.

Isn't this the very reason that Galatians 1 and 2 is part of Scripture, and therefore beneficial for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness? In Galatians, Paul showed how Peter stood "condemned" in this matter of showing favoritism for one race or national group above another. Earlier Paul had just shown how we might go wrong for showing favoritism for a leader just because that person might be distinguished and respected.

There is nothing particularly wrong with bringing an accusation against an older man as long as we are conscientiously following the principle of not just making accusations wildly because of what we have heard from only one source, or unreliable sources. I think, or hope at least, that I am following the advice of Paul here:

• (1 Timothy 5:19-21) 19 Do not accept an accusation against an older man except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 Reprove before all onlookers those who practice sin, as a warning to the rest. 21 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to observe these instructions without any prejudice or partiality.

 

[Arauna]

On 1/19/2020 at 1:56 AM, Kosonen said:

There is a possibility that it will begin very soon.

All cards must line up.  They are not complete yet....  but things can change overnight.

On 1/19/2020 at 1:56 AM, Kosonen said:

come against the south. (Syria) But this

In the time of Israel, way back then, Syria was part of northern coalition as a country.  In the global fulfillment of this proohecy leading up to a global Armageddon it refers to  the kings which are all aligned with the king if the south (Anglo-American interests with its allies)

The king of the north is Russia and China and all its other allies which does include Syria-  which are expanding rapidly.

I see you like the prophecy of Daniel. Read Daniel 11:40.  This economic pushing seems to be going on right now between north and south. Later the north controls all the wealth of the world..... read to end of chapter in Daniel 11.

This I believe is happening now because China and Russia has infiltrated Africa and south America, has taken over the south China sea with 15 islands and building a fleet of ships capable of putting trade embargoes in place. 

There are too many things going on at present which indicates a world-wide fulfillment of prophecy.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

communism because it brings poor people out of poverty much quicker than capitalism ever has.

Communism does uplift people  during the distribution of wealth phase  - but it tends to always turn into a dictatorship. I come from Africa and first hand saw this. Most African countries are communist (their cultures love socialism) and suffer hardship because of communistic dictatorships. Africa cannot proper due to its human governments which immitate communism.

Capitalism is not any better. While it allows freedom to prosper and gives more opportunities -  unchecked capitalism leads to monopolies, then global corporations which become dictators. These corporations use their money to lobby to become more powerful and in the end it looks like a dictatorship by corporations or the individuals behind the corporations.  Google is now dictating policy by removing independent reporting from internet...... and supporting Chinese surveillance system..... Global corporations can become evil - think of the history of Monsanto.....  

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I went out of my way in Dear Mr Putin not to demonize the Russian President, as most in the West does, and you praised me for it—not for Putin specifically, but for writing a book that did not reflect the common Western perception of Russia.

Many try to make Putin out to be another Hitler, and I think you are right that trying to demonize him in that way burns bridges unnecessarily. But I liked that you didn't actually let Putin off the hook, either.

My comments in this regard, as you indicate, were mostly about not parroting the Western version of Russian's history as it is sometimes stereotyped. Terribly bad things happened. But the numerical extent is controversial in Russia, and among many world historians, and Putin himself has to walk a tightrope on some of those historical topics. Besides you found a good way to make the same points without letting this additional controversy distract from your main point.   

But to your point here: I think Putin is awful in a lot of ways, and probably OK in a lot of ways. I'm pretty sure you know a lot more about him than I do, all the more so, after the work you put into the book project. But I don't think you are saying we shouldn't trash Hitler after all that we've learned about him. I don't think there is anything controversial about calling out Hitler's racism and the methods used to reach his political goals.

[Arauna]

On 1/18/2020 at 10:26 PM, JW Insider said:

between Communism and the Roman Catholic

I listen to Catholics online to find out what is happening in the church.  This is how I know about the Pope's antics because some are outraged. Some firmly believe the communists entered the catholic church and subverted it....... but the subversion goes father back than that.

Communistic ideas went from Frankfort School into most mainstream universities in USA ...... it is now morphed into this new post modern philosophy and the new feminism.  America has been subverted. Many professors openly preach communism and make excuses for communisms past atrocities.

This is why I believe we will get a ind of dictatorship in the world because the powerful global corporations in the west and china/Russia are working together with UN.  It is inevitable that they start to use modern technology in an evil way by surveilling all citizens and getting rid of those who have the wrong profile..

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So I'm not at all surprised about bad things coming out of the UN, NATO, the EU, the White House, Russia, China,

Me too!  It is all working toward a global situation  called Armageddon!

Technology has advanced so much - it is mind boggling what they have been doing - we have reached a state of technological development where we do not control the ethics any longer and it can be used for very wicked purposes.

China allows all kinds of unethical experiments and many westerners go there for this. This means that China- an increasingly absolute totalitarian regime- has the intellectual property to do with it what it wants.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Mein Kampf had made very clear all the basic components of his ideology.

Perhaps Judge Rutherford is of those JW members who read only WT books, publications :))) and lack of this sort of knowledge shaped his feelings to Hitler expressed in a Letter.

Or Judge Rutherford just used tactic of "theocratic war" and lied about standpoints he had about Nazi Germany.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Don't get the idea that I think Communism is a proper solution for the world, or that I think that these countries can do no wrong. They are led by humans, influenced by Satan, and will make dangerous mistakes just like every other nation. The only true solution to human governments is a government by God, God's Kingdom under Christ.

To be said in WT theocratic sort of wording, and as GB very well explained own position. Here we can explain secular position: "they are not inspired and can err" ..... :)))))

[Arauna]

5 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Perhaps Judge Rutherford is of those JW members who read only WT books, publications :))) and lack of this sort of knowledge shaped his feelings to Hitler expressed in a Letter.

Royal family members were taken in by Him. One must understand the period to understand why people accepted certain things.  The Pope made the konkordat with Hitler.......even Russia trusted him..... untill he turned on it. 

People can see things right under their noses and not realize what they are looking at.  Most Jews who experienced kristal nacht never thought it could suddenly turn much worse.  Those who did not leave in time were caught in the trap.

[Arauna]

21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

UN conspiracism grew out of the Paris Peace Conference

I know there are many conspiracies about UN. Count Kalergi is the one behind the EU and UN idea. He wanted the world to be a federation...... with different blocks of countries united in regions, similar  to what the UN is planning now.

 

21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

UN in plotting to institute one world religion to supplant Christianity

That is quite evident now.  There is no outcry against the genocide in  north Africa and middle east of people for the only reason that they are Christian. Christian's are being killed in India (now number 5 in the world) because other Muslim countries have very little Christian's left.

21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This idea is also shared to some extent by Jehovah's Witnesses, who conside

The UN can go down and come up with a new name.... and new members - we will be persecuted as the bible says because we do not have the mark of this beast.  They see themselves as the instrument to bring "peace and security " to the earth.  Read their charter.  We see only gods government as the instrument which can accomplish this successfully..... so I guess we will be branded as conspirators because we do not fall down and worship in obedience....... like Nebuchadnezzar  demanded.

[TrueTomHarley]

12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And, like I said before: almost all conspiracies have a lot of truth in them or they wouldn't work;

Sometimes I marvel that Jehovah’s people do not swallow more conspiracy theories than they do, for they have uncovered the greatest conspiracy theory of all time—that God’s most damaging enemies are not the atheists, but those who claim to be his friends. As near as I can tell, JWs swallow them in no greater proportion than the overall world.

12 hours ago, Arauna said:

I have found that most Americans view the world only through American eyes and this gives them a  myopic view of the world.  

Yes. How can it be said of an American city that “in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth?” “All those who have been slaughtered on the earth?” It’s rather easy to say this with regard to unfaithful religion, not primarily for its acts of commission but for its acts of omission—why have people not been taught how to be peaceful? By not teaching God accurately, providing ‘junk food’ instead, people become disillusioned and stray and become easy prey for no end of underhanded schemes. How can that record be pinned on an American city with 3rd class subways?

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Most African countries are communist (their cultures love socialism) and suffer hardship because of communistic dictatorships.

The joke in Russia during Soviet times was: “We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us.” A turning point for—I think it was Gorbachev—was his visiting a factory and discovering that any key worked for any vehicle.

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Capitalism is not any better. While it allows freedom to prosper and gives more opportunities -  unchecked capitalism leads to monopolies, then global corporations which become dictators

One fact that flies in the face of Russia being the belligerent king is that America bombs more countries than he. When Bob’s Bomb Company gets an order for a bomb, small businessman Bob goes down in the basement and builds one. However, when Bob’s Bomb Company has become a huge enterprise with stockholders that must be fed or they will go elsewhere, Bob sends lobbyists to Washington to promote the view—and spread money around liberally to those who pick up on it—that the world is an extraordinarily dangerous place of countless enemies that must be kept in check—and as it turns out, ‘we build just the products to facilitate that.’ The lobbyists are not there primarily to hawk Bob’s Bombs over Bill’s Bombs—they are there to foment rising waters that will float all boats. The expression is that ‘the tail wags the dog.’

It is little different with a host of other industries—tobacco, food, pharma, for instance—they reach the point where they must keep that money rolling in and then they do things to that end without regard to effect on the consumer or general society. I do not follow anything on Twitter without following its polar opposite, and in this way I have come to feel that some ‘conspiracy theories’ are actually much better argued that the mainline, which often just says that ‘we’ve got this locked up’ and shouts down whoever would challenge it. As you point out, the large internet firms are also going this way—agreeing to whatever nasty terms this or that government lays down—just to expand their reach.

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

One must understand the period to understand why people accepted certain things

Yes, and they never are by a generation that considers itself the wisest of all time. I have said before that when time travel is invented, historical revisionists will give a friendly wave to founding father American slave holders as they race back in time to haul the real villians—the Ancient Greek pedophlles that form the underpinning of Western civilization—back in leg-irons. 

As to Hitler positioning himself in his pre-1933 days, the GreatCourses professor on American history refers to a “low-level anti-semitism” that was almost universal prior to WWII—and in many parts of the world, not so low-level—so that picking up on it would be no more controversial than breathing air. After the Holocaust, that low-level anti-semitism vanished overnight. so that it is easy to forget that it ever existed and read more into expressions of the day than is merited.

Did JR suffer in his overall outlook of the world by reading mostly WT pubs? That is possible, in my view. He would be more widely read than most Witnesses, of course, but that’s not saying much. Even then, JWs were “insular”—a label most of them would reject but only because they are unsure of the implication of a word they don’t use themselves. Modify if to ‘no part of the world’ and they will embrace it happily. Isn’t that was insulation is—a means to separate something good from that which is damaging or corrosive?

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm not at all trying to condemn Rutherford generally. Listening closely to his speeches and known writings, you can tell he has a love for Jehovah, and a strong faith that Jehovah will act on behalf of righteous people.

Okay, okay—olive branch here. I was in an atypical mood at the time, rethinking some things in view of yesterday WT article. It was not the greatest time for me to read a post that seemed to me something that would make Alan envious.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Do not accept an accusation against an older man except on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

But that’s not really the same as accepting it right here on the worldwide media network forum, clear-channel broadcast to the entire world. Or is it that? Is it (as I usually maintain and so do you) a tiny backwater followed by only a handful of persons and followed even less for its longwindedness?—people only have so much time in their day, after all, and for most of them, almost all of their time is already claimed. On the other hand, I sometimes suspect and I’m sure you do too—that as the only vehicle I know of in which hero and villain roam alike—neither all-villain, nor ‘cumbaya’ ‘where never is heard a discouraging word’, it is followed by some who matter.