Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.

[TrueTomHarley]

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I'm not the one to try to punch more holes in this theory, because my own theory

I am reminded of a certain joker in our congregation who, with the dissolution of the Soviet Union, when I mentioned how the identity of the northern king was unclear and might again resurface somewhere else, said: “It’s Bolivia.”

20 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I don't see any problem with the identification of Babylon the Great with false religion.

I don’t have any problem with the vast majority of ids in the Revelation book. Only a few of the early conventions in various locations are mis-identified as significant, They should have been ones all in Rochester, where I attend.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

And really, why would Jehovah tell us prophetically about events around WT society 100 years ago? Would it not be much more of spiritual value if it concerned Jehovah's witnesses before Armageddon now when there are millions of Jehovah's witnesses?

Would it not be of even more spiritual value if it concerned all Christians in every century since Revelation was written? This it would do if Rome was, in fact, the last world power. If it represents the system of things of this world and its desires. I don't think there would have been any doubt about the identification of Rome by the first readers of Revelation. All Christians would have understood that they were already raised up, made alive together with Christ, and already "seated together in the heavenly places." Christians understood that even physical symbols had spiritual meanings, including conquering and death and resurrection:

(Ephesians 2:1-7) . . .Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, carrying out the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved. 6 Moreover, he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming systems of things he might demonstrate the surpassing riches of his undeserved kindness in his graciousness toward us in union with Christ Jesus.

Of course, this does not mean that the physical outworking of these same symbols would not also occur at some unspecified time in the future. And, a physical fulfillment would result in actual wrath against the children of this world who still walk according to the ruler and authority of the air. This is similar to the Olivet prophecy about Jerusalem, which was initially about the current Jewish system of things, but which wold ultimately be fulfilled in the coming system of things -- the new heaven and the new earth.

This is why I think that the Society's view about Babylon the Great being false religion is still perfectly apt. Just because it was already being fulfilled in the early centuries of Christianity,  these symbols can still have a more physical fulfillment on a grander scale in the final judgment.

The quotes you made from Daniel point to the same idea.

13 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Its interesting how JWinsider has an appeal when the aka comes from the same persona. He usually accuses others of being Allen Smith but has no problem being Allen Smith like.

You've convinced me that you are extremely dishonest. I have one account here; just one persona. I don't "pat myself on the back" with votes or comments from multiple personas. Therefore I am not Allen-Smith-like as you are claiming. That kind of Allen-Smith-like dishonesty is for immature people who troll forums to make themselves feel better about themselves.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

And really, why would Jehovah tell us prophetically about events around WT society 100 years ago?

The purpose is sometimes in the "subtext" and sometimes declared openly by members of the Governing Body themselves. It is because Jehovah wanted us to be able to identify the faithful and discreet slave as the "Governing Body" since 1919. If the specific explanations are not convincing to us, it does not mean that the Governing Body is promoting it with ulterior motives. It could be true, and even if it is not a true fulfillment, it does not mean that it was just "made up." It just means that this is a traditional explanation that has been handed down for many decades and has been accepted as the most likely explanation until enough questions about it arose.

As you know, very recently the Watchtower changed the date for the Captivity to Babylon the Great from 1918 to about the year 100 CE. This was most recently tied to 1918 because it was the date that the WT had traditionally handed down since shorty after the "seven brothers" were made physically captive in Atlanta. It supposedly had been made to fit a few other beliefs the WTS has held about 1918 (i.e., first resurrection in 1918, removal of holy spirit in 1918, punishment for the cult of Russell/nationalism/political involvement, the cleansing of the Temple in 1918). But 1918 has now been nearly totally unlinked from every one of those old 1918 fulfillments.

When enough questions no longer had good answers, 1918 was removed from the prophetic "equations." If enough questions come up about 1919, then this might also go away. Until then, it serves a purpose of showing that Jehovah and Jesus had already prophesied about the Bible Students under Rutherford's direction, and approved them, and appointed them. But again, even if this particular identification for 1919 goes away, it doesn't take away from the overall, general value of the doctrines that were guarded by these same persons since the 1870's, and which began to be further refined especially BECAUSE of the events surrounding 1918 and 1919 and culminating in the cleansing of many false doctrines handed down from Russell between 1927 and 1931. A lot of significant things happened during this time period, but we don't need specific numbers to be interpreted from Daniel and Revelation to give them more significance. The good that was done and which leads to the good we are still doing in our association with the same worldwide brotherhood isn't taken away if these specific explanations of prophecies are dropped.  

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

But that's entertainment. In my neighborhood it's called the setup man. 

I sure made use of it, identifying the Big Apple with Apple the company with.a bite taken out of it as though smitten—also with Tim Cook thereby being one of the two witnesses and Jeff Bezos’ the other, for his company that  decimated the Big City by not investing there, running from local politicians like a Great Antitypical Scared Rabbit, fleeing to Virginia instead.

And I haven’t even gotten started yet about how Virginia must be the home of those who did not defile themselves with women—virgins. And Virginia abuts the American capital, the same way as does the Great Capital where ones who do not defile themselves with women hang out. (though, to be sure, in the literal capital, they defile themselves with plenty of women—other things, too) That means Washington is antitypical of the ruling city of Revelation! Doesn’t that Mormon temple there lit up at night—is that still there?—visible on the beltway prove it since it looks holy? 

Yes! It is all a drama that is foreshadowed by places and events of the United States! And what if you live anywhere else? Fuhgeddabuodit! 

To be sure, there are a few details that aren’t fully explained. I’ll have it all worked out by supper time. I am a prophet on fire, I am.

[Arauna]

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

 

I can not understand how elimination of religion would affect commerce

If you only knew how many jobs are in religious organizations..... how many schools, day care centres, immigration offices (churcbas make milliions upon millions  from the immigration process) and as shareholder in banks....... . The previous Pope resigned because their bank in Italy was caught laundering money internationally.. ..

3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

events around WT society 100 years ago?

Jehovah is a perfect time keeper and his "project " to restore the earth (eph 1:9 speaks of the administration of his plan under the kingdom - the sacret secret....).. has a time-line and milestones. 

He has given us the seven heads of the beast and shown us what will happen directly after the "perousia" starts. (The 3 and half years fall in this period. ).... and gives an indication when the seventh head of the beast (which is also depicted as the duel horned dragon which speaks like lamb...... will blow life into the image of the beast  (which went into abyss and came out again - league of nations which later came up as UN). Later the UN and coalition of nations becomes the 8th king for a short while.... 

 

God puts it in the heart of Babylon bedfellows to turn against her.  How does the name Babylon fit in with New York?  Jehovah always uses the same picture words for certain concepts.

False religion or unfaithful religion is always depicted as a harlot  or adulterer

Horns are often rulerships or kings

Beasts depict specific empires 

 

 

3 hours ago, Kosonen said:

why would Jehovah tell us prophetically about events around WT society 100 years ag

It is part of the time-line but also because these people also needed encouragement in their own time -  to see some things going into fulfillment. They do not see the full promise like those when Armageddon comes but they saw things which helped them stay alert and watchful.

Jehovah cares for the beginning and the end of the generation.

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Maybe the shortest answer to that question is in Daniel 7:11 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant* words that the horn was speaking;+ I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. 12  But as for the rest of the beasts,+ their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

And the rest of this portion of Daniel that you quoted:

“I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them,+22  until the Ancient of Days+ came and judgment was rendered in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One,+ and the appointed time arrived for the holy ones to take possession of the kingdom.+23  “This is what he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it.+ 24  As for the ten horns, ten kings will rise up out of that kingdom; and still another one will rise up after them, and he will be different from the first ones, and he will humiliate three kings.+ 25  He will speak words against the Most High,+ and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.*+ 26  But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely."

The fourth beast, we all agree, I think, is Rome, i.e., the Roman Empire. Our publications make this clear:

*** it-1 p. 269 Beasts, Symbolic ***
Babylon fell to the Medo-Persian kingdom, . . . Medo-Persia’s domination was ended by the lightning conquest of the Grecian forces headed by Alexander the Great. . . .The Grecian Empire was eventually taken over completely by Rome. The Roman Empire surpassed all the preceding empires not only in the extent of its domain (covering the entire Mediterranean area and in time reaching to the British Isles) but also in the efficiency of its military machine and the firmness of its application of Roman law to the provinces of its far-flung empire. Rome, of course, was the political instrument used to execute the Messiah, Christ Jesus, as well as to persecute the early Christian congregation.

Naturally, we want this to extend further down to our day, and it still would in a way, but it still ends at Rome. There is nothing here about anything beyond Rome. Nothing about the Spanish, French, Russian, Chinese, or Anglo-American world powers. And this is appropriate, because of the last highlighted sentence: Rome executed Christ and persecuted the early Christian congregation.

It was therefore ROME that made war against the holy ones in Daniel 7:21. And we know from Colossians that it was in 33 CE, under ROME, when the holy ones began taking possession of the Kingdom. In a preliminary sense, the "early adopters" of the Kingdom were the ones chosen as disciples during Jesus' lifetime, during his "kingdom ministry."

(Matthew 12:28-30) ²⁸ But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you. ²⁹ Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Only then can he plunder his house. ³⁰ Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

It was Rome, backed by the "ruler and authority of the air" that "changed time and laws" by destroying the Temple at Jerusalem, or even intending to interfere with the timing of the birth of the Kingdom (Eph 1:9, Rev 12). Also, it is clear in Daniel that the 10 horns are kings coming out of this Roman kingdom, NOT new kingdoms throughout later history. It was during Rome's rule that Satan's rulership (therefore "Rome's" rulership) was taken away, at least from the perspective of conquering Christians.

(Luke 10:18, 19) ¹⁸ At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven. ¹⁹ Look! I have given you the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing at all will harm you.

(John 12:31, 32) ³¹ Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. ³² And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all sorts of men to myself.

 

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You've convinced me that you are extremely dishonest.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I am convinced you are extremely dishonest person

By the way, when I have often identified this habit of yours as "defensive echolalia" I don't mean it as any kind of actual medical disorder. Seriously, I only mean that you so often defend yourself by merely echoing the same words back in a kind of immature "I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I?" style. (The one that comedian Peewee Herman made famous.) I am not referring to anything like an actual diagnosis of pathological "echolalia" which is something completely different:

www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › echolalia

Echolalia | Definition of Echolalia by Merriam-Webster

Echolalia definition is - the often pathological repetition of what is said by other people as if echoing them.

 

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The good thing about "Babylon the great" could not possibly be tied to ancient ROME as you indicate .  . . . This has nothing to do with disloyal people supporting this scheme of adding Rome to the mix.

It probably did sound like I was tying Babylon the Great to ROME. I'll try to explain shortly. But first I wanted to look again at your reasons for saying it is NOT tied to Rome.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

This ideal of the Greco-Roman heathenism and Judaism can be considered to the modern day Vatican College of Cardinals that held the same tradition of the Sanhedrin with 71 members. Therefore, it can be applied to the Catholic Church not Rome itself.

I think this was meant to respond to the idea that Babylon the Great had nothing to do with Rome. I don't see your point, though.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Just because Vatican City is in Rome wasn’t a concern for writers, just false prophets we see today, just like back then. Then, it's the Catholic Church that will be implicated, not the people of Rome just like the Jewish Pharisees did with Pilate.

I think this was also meant to respond to the idea that Babylon the Great had nothing to do with Rome. I don't see the point of this either. Hopefully you can explain.

I'll try to explain what I might have implied by throwing "Rome" into the mix in my next post.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The good thing about "Babylon the great" could not possibly be tied to ancient ROME as you indicate

To be clear, I never said that Babylon the Great was Rome, either as a literal city or even specifically the same exact symbol as Rome. But there is definitely a strong tie to Rome, if I am understanding the symbol of Rome correctly. I have proposed that Rome represents the world. Babylon is tied very closely to this same "Rome" as a symbol. Revelation says that this woman with the name "Babylon the Great" has something to do with the "seven hills on which the woman sits."

(Revelation 17:9) “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top.

(Revelation 17:9, Catholic Jerusalem Bible) . . .“This calls for shrewdness: The seven heads are the seven hills, on which the woman is sitting."

There has been only one city that has had the name "the city on seven hills" for well over 2,200 years. The Latin Vulgate here says: "septem capita septem montes" (seven heads on seven hills[mounts]). Cicero and Plutarch both mention the "septem colles/montes Romae"  (seven hills/mounts of Rome) and both indicate that this term had been used long before Revelation was written. A Wikipedia article is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome

So any first readers of Revelation, would have just recalled (traumatically) the devastating attack from Rome on Jerusalem, and the continuing persecution of Jews and Christians by Rome. There would be no question how they would immediately identify the Woman as the Great City who sits atop seven hills. 

(Revelation 17:3-18) . . .And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns. . . . On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth.” 6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. . . . The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. .  .  “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. . . .18 And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

So this woman is a great city who sits on seven hills. At the time Revelation was written there was only city that sat on seven hills. So, yes, I would say there is some very close connection between the city of Rome and the prostitute named Babylon the Great.

Of course, I made it clear that I don't think the city is literal. But this woman has the name of Babylon and she sits on top of a symbol of Rome. The NWT cross-references Jeremiah 51:8 and Isaiah 21:9 with Revelation 18:4. In fact, the cross-references tell the story exactly in the way any well-read Christian would have read Revelation. It's the contexts of those cross-references, even though they applied to Babylon, that makes it easy to make the same application to Rome. These references explain both a physical and symbolic message that was simple and unavoidable:

(Jeremiah 51:5-10) . . .For Israel and Judah are not widowed from their God, from Jehovah of armies.  . .  6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, And escape for your life. Do not perish because of her error. For it is the time for Jehovah’s vengeance. He is paying her back for what she has done.  7 Babylon has been a golden cup in the hand of Jehovah; She made all the earth drunk. From her wine the nations have drunk; That is why the nations have gone mad.  8 Suddenly Babylon has fallen and is broken. Wail over her! Get balsam for her pain; perhaps she may be healed.”  9 “We tried to heal Babylon, but she could not be healed. Leave her and let us go, each to his own land. For her judgment has reached to the heavens; It is as high as the clouds. 10 Jehovah has brought about justice for us. Come, let us recount in Zion the work of Jehovah our God.”

(Isaiah 21:9)  9 Look at what is coming: . . . Then he spoke up and said: “She has fallen! Babylon has fallen! All the graven images of her gods he has shattered to the ground!”

The clue is in the idea that all her religious images have proved worthless from Jehovah's judgments against Babylon. Jehovah's people must turn away from any reliance on false gods and turn back completely to Jehovah's pure worship:

(Isaiah 48:20) . . .Go out from Babylon! Flee from the Chal·deʹans! Announce it with a joyful cry! Proclaim it! Make it known to the ends of the earth. Say: “Jehovah has repurchased his servant Jacob.

(Isaiah 52:11) 11 Turn away, turn away, get out of there, touch nothing unclean! Get out from the midst of her, keep yourselves clean, You who are carrying the utensils of Jehovah.

These scriptures were about judgments against Babylon because Babylon had represented the cup of God's judgments against the nations. But, after that fact, for God's people Babylon had now represented the fact that they, in exile, were being held back from restoring the recently destroyed Temple at Jerusalem. Yet they were to restore pure worship in a New Jerusalem. These themes will play out in the rest of Revelation, too.

You had said I am trying to detract from 1919. Not exactly. Getting out of Babylon refers to restoring pure worship. For the WTS, this has been a long process that included positive and correct teachings that Russell had accepted before 1919, including removing "Babylon-like" graven images, which was a hallmark of Catholicism and even several Protestant denominations. There was a cleansing of false doctrines like the Trinity, hell-fire, immortal soul, etc. Rutherford pushed to get rid of several more false ideas that Russell had not removed, including an adjustment to the counsel about participation in war as early as 1917, although  most of the new adjustments came in the years 1927 to 1931, culminating in a name change that helped separate the Bible Students even further from the baggage of nearly 50 years for certain other false teachings and misinterpretations. (Christmas, pyramidology, Zionism)

I don't see anything particularly special about 1919, but I can understand that it was a year when opportunities arose for removing more false teachings. And there were some good new initiatives under Rutherford in 1919 that should be highlighted. (Especially expanded participation by many in door-to-door ministry.) But since 1919 was primarily a really big year for pushing the false teachings about 1925, I would not focus too much on the year 1919 itself. It's really a continuous stream of incremental progress, and the shock of failure over all of the 1914/1915 predictions was probably one of the reasons that so LITTLE progress was made in 1919 itself.

In truth, we as an organization have been blessed with spiritual progress since the late 1800's. There are likely many more blessings of spiritual progress to be made in the near future. We can be happy for this. We are blessed for it. Of course, you (Cesar) apparently hate it that I raise my little, unworthy voice in opposition to the chronology traditions we are still stuck with. That's your right and it's what I would expect from many Witnesses. But my own strongly-held conscientious beliefs include the idea that we would be even more blessed if these "strongly entrenched things" were overturned. It's not like these ideas are my own. In discussions at work while at Bethel have heard a few members of the Governing Body themselves (from about 1977 to 1982) struggle with the 1919 date and related dates. I heard Brother Dan Sydlik himself say that we ought to just scrap all this 1919 stuff and start over from scratch.

[Arauna]

10 hours ago, Kosonen said:

7:11 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant* words that the horn was speaking;+ I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. 12  But as for the rest of the beasts,+ their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

Who is this arrogant horn who speaks great things?  The British empire which later became the dual Anglo-American empire. This the the horn who persecuted the people of God. It will go down as a world empire and the "rest of the beasts" will be "prolonged for a season" in the United Nations."  

11 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Because most of the explanations are not convincing, thus impossible to understand

You said some witnesses felt this way: the truth is that many witnesses hate history - have never opened a history book in their lives apart from the bit of  history about their own country they were forced to learn in school and barely passed. Now imagine this in a Daniel or Revelation book..... they do not dig in...... they just sigh and complain.... and say they do not understand.

This is why I partly believe that that the GB are now careful  to not get too complicated. They spoon feed prophecy - only that which is absolutely necessary to understand or being fulfilled in the presenf time - and can clearly be seen. 

It is better for new ones (and old) to learn to cope in a wicked world because there is a violent asault on morality all the time from every aspect of society. It is important to build every ones moral endurance  before Armageddon and their capacity to make good descisions.  GB teach life skills better than ever before..... 

 

[JW Insider]

26 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

since the player in Babylon the great are the actors in the Vatican City

False religion today surely includes Vatican City. But I don't limit the symbol of Babylon to what might come out of the literal city limits of Rome (which includes Vatican City). I know that many have thought like this, including Russell and his early associates, even Rutherford. I didn't look it up for an exact quote, but I have read that at least one edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia states:

"It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined."

26 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Those are the ones falsifying the actual intent of Christ in order for the POPE to continue his dominance just as the players of old. Then, it is the Catholic Church that is misleading people.

Again, I would not limit it to Catholicism or even just the false forms of Christianity. I think the Watchtower publications have it right in defining Babylon as a "world empire of false religion."

26 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Then the observation of Babylon the Great is simply FALSE religion. Who but the U.N. can carry that message to the other nations? Who can personally carry that message in open forums like this?

That makes more sense that it is simply "false religion." But I don't know why the U.N. would carry that message to other nations, telling them that Babylon the Great is simply "false religion." Perhaps you mean that only the U.N. could carry a message demanding some action against religion, in general, or against specific religions. At present, they have no such power to do anything like that. If they did, we already know it would be completely ignored, at least under current world circumstances. Most things done and said by the UN are ignored, or they have simply been overridden by countries with veto power. Therefore waiting on the U.N. to do something, even if it MIGHT happen, is really the same as waiting on some sign. And that particular expectation is based on an interpretation of a book wherein we have changed interpretations dozens of times over the years.

If we are still waiting on world circumstances to change such that such a message could be carried out with any effect by the U.N. then we are contradicting Jesus' words that the end can come as a sudden surprise at any time.

Since we know that it would take something much greater than the U.N. right now, we also must say that this scenario can only play out if we believe that:

*** rr chap. 18 p. 198 par. 18 “My Great Rage Will Flare Up” ***
They will not realize that it was actually God who put the thought into their hearts to get rid of religions that have so grossly misrepresented him.—Rev. 17:16, 17.

If it takes God to put this thought into their hearts, then there is no need to speculate at all about the U.N.

And your question about who can personally carry that message in open forums like this seems wrong. It seems like you are seeing way too much importance in a little "backwater" forum where only about three dozen persons ever speak up about such issues, and where two dozen of them are probably you.

[Arauna]

13 hours ago, Kosonen said:

and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.*+ 26  But the Court sat, and they took away his rulership, in order to annihilate him and to destroy him completely."

Daniel 7 speaks of the fourth 'beast' and the one arrogant ' horn' that grows out of it. Then it moves to and fro between the human actions of the little horn and jehovahs kingdom rule and from the horn to the remnants of the forth ' beast ' itself. One therefore must be careful to ensure what it is speaking about.

In the final summary of the chapter written by Daniel.....It is this Anglo-American 'horn' that persecutes God's people and "they are given into his hand"  ..... this comes after the kingdom was established... invisibly in heaven shrouded by clouds.

This has happened (JWs understood it to have happened) at a time when JWs desperately needed to understand what was going on with them. .. at the time they understood Christ must be in Kingdom  power. Their preaching was stopped.  The persecution was sudden and severe with leaders in jail-  a dark period- so they started to understand  prophecy  at that time  and they received courage  to go on....motivated to preach when they came free from jail.... (apologies- I must have read too fast the previous time I commented for it does speak if 3 and half period in this chapter) the same period is referred to in Revelation with respect to the 2 Witnesses.

Please keep in mind that the book of Daniel will open up in the time of the end (Daniel 12:4) and Revelation shows that it is visions which will take place  Rev 1:10 " by inspiration, I came to be in the Lords day."  The bible students were scourged and cleaned by jehovah according to their own understanding.  They applied micah 3:1-3 to themselves. Like lye they were washed clean. They were the messenger that later was to become the "slave"  just like John the Baptist came before Jesus. Russel and his clan was this messenger.

This was one of the milestones when they really needed encouragement ......so after the 3 and half times they received a ressurrection - came back to life to preach anew as a newly refined people.

 Whether a more severe period lies ahead- with 3 and half period our preaching work totally dead.... I do not know. All I do know is that we expect severe persecution now and have been prepared for it by the GB. Their interpretation of this prophecy before, gave them the incentive to go on..... with Jehovahs mercy.

We have had relative freedom for a number of years but the biggest assault ever is lying ahead - on our endurance and morality.   I am  sure that we will be attacked  in some way because we do not accept interfaith, blood, military service or LGBTQ. While JWs are the most proudly loving multicultural organization in the world -  it is already a felony to publicly be known to not agree with LGBTQ or Islamic teaching.... . In future, we may be branded as offenders against new government instituted morality if we preach to LGBTQ persons by preaching christ as ransom.  The war against the ransom sacrifice is on because we have to have faith in it to be saved by jehovah. Matthew 24 clearly indicates that those who follow christ will be persecuted.  

The new radical feminism is warring with the bible and wants it banned because they say it has historically promoted patrairchy in the West.   Illogical as it seems these radicals have Islam as their bedfellows - they ignore its extreme patriarchy where under Sharia women really have no rights. 

This is the illogical lunatic asylum we are living in now..... soon to become worse.

[A Nice Guy]

19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That kind of Allen-Smith-like dishonesty is for immature people who troll forums to make themselves feel better about themselves.

I believe that Mr JWI raises an excellent point