Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.

[Kosonen]

As I remember WT organization teaches that God's kingdom was "born" in 1914 based on Revelation 12: "So down the great dragon+ was hurled, the original serpent,+ the one called Devil+ and Satan,+ who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;+ he was hurled down to the earth,+ and his angels were hurled down with him. 10  I heard a loud voice in heaven say:“Now have come to pass the salvation+ and the power and the Kingdom of our God+ and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!+"

So here I have just recently remarked yet an other discrepancy. The WT teaches that Satan was not exactly in 1914 hurled down to earth, but around 1918 if I remember right. That is because some other calculations with 1260 days and events with WT society, did not start happening in 1914. 

This in itself throws doubt on the whole idea about 1914. 

It really looks like the WT organization by force tried to fit prophecies to events and dates too early before their right time. The events just do not fit the prophecies in many ways. 

 

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Interesting - they had pinpointed the UN at that time.....because it is now getting significantly important in the present time.  It (un) may even now go in abyss and come up with a new name. All I know is that UN Agenda 2030 cannot work unless they do eventually control policy in the West in a totalitarian way and work with the Chinese/Russian block of alliances . . .

There is always some truth in half-truths, and conspiracy theorists always deal in half-truths. I have usually found, or I should say "always found" that whenever I hear about the dangers of a certain UN initiative, that the person promoting the theory is often virtually unacquainted with the original documents, and is getting their information from another place, rather than the UN source.

I think that any human organization can be dangerous, even inadvertently. People make stupid and dangerous decisions without thinking of consequences. It happens all the more with persons of influence and power who make dangerous decisions, sometimes on purpose, and sometimes while trying to do the right thing. So I'm not at all surprised about bad things coming out of the UN, NATO, the EU, the White House, Russia, China, etc.

And I'm not surprised that persons, even Rutherford, in 1918 on up through 1940, '41, '42, '43, '44, '45, etc., also held conspiratorial views of the League of Nations and the UN, and that these views influenced some of those extremely inaccurate predictions about them. Inaccurate predictions about them are found in the Watch Tower publications and also on the pages of many other religions and political, secular organizations, too.  

Initially, of course, the Watchtower praised the League of Nations, as if it were some sort of political expression of God's kingdom on earth, just as Rutherford initially praised Hitler's Nazi government as if it were some sort of political expression of God's kingdom on earth. Of course, in neither case did this view last very long, and it was never expressed as if these two political expressions (the League and Hitler) could ever be looked upon as any kind of replacement of God's kingdom. 

I doubt that this site is very accurate, but I agree with much of what is said on this wikipedia-style article at https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/United_Nations

It includes among its member nations not only parliamentary democracies, but also human rights abusers mainly concerned with their own power. Because unanimity among the Big 5 (the USA, France, UK, Russia and China) is needed for any action involving the Security Council, things rarely get done, and UN sanctions can be pretty much ignored by all nations great and small. That's okay, though, since the countries like the US that are meant to fund it systematically starve it of funding, so the UN can't do much anyway.^{[note 1]} On some small scale activities, it can do some good, but any attempts at actual peace-keeping usually fall apart. What should then be a cause for peace and brotherhood instead just becomes another bureaucratic nightmare.

. . .

The UN and conspiracy theories

As an international body, the UN has predictably attracted the attention of conspiracy theorists. Due to conservatives' dislike of the institution, the conspiracy theories tend to come from the far-right wingnut camp, although said theories often cross over into the loony left fringes as well.

League of Nations

UN conspiracism grew out of the Paris Peace Conference at the end of the First World War as liberal internationalists like Woodrow Wilson pushed for an international body that would promote global peace and national self-determination. Opponents of the plan, most notably Wilson's nemesis Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge (R-MA), argued that joining the League of Nations would cause the US to become entangled in malignant international politics, that the US might have to commit troops to wars it didn't want to fight, and that the League would infringe on national sovereignty.^[4] Despite the fact that the US ultimately failed to join the League of Nations — and that its failure was one of the major causes of World War II — conspiracy theories about world government began to spring up in fringe circles. Often, these were vague murmurings about shadowy international dealings, though some conspiracy theories began to take on racist overtones. Father Coughlin, for example, alleged that the League was a tool of the Jews to prosecute a "sacred war" against the US.

As a side note: One of the few positive things that the League of Nations accomplished was issuing "Nansen Passports," the first internationally recognized form of Refugee Documents for stateless people.^[5]

Formation of the UN

Conspiratorial themes about the League of Nations transferred over to the newly formed United Nations during the post-war era. The John Birch Society (JBS) was (and still is) most famous for pushing conspiracy theories about the UN being a front for a communist world take-over. The JBS also implicated the UN in plotting to institute one world religion to supplant Christianity. This was to be done through subtle means, such as a "War on Christmas" in which religious Christmas decorations would be replaced by UN iconography.^[6]

The New World Order and other current theories

Current conspiracy theories about the UN usually portray it as the heart of an alleged "New World Order" (NWO), or at least implicate it as a major player in said Order. The UN effectively acts as a Rorschach test for political cranks to project their paranoia onto. Some more recent conspiratorial notions include:

• The UN is in cahoots with [insert favored bogeyman here]. (Popular choices include the Jews, the NWO, communists, environmentalists, "globalists", corporo-fascists, Illuminati, the Catholic Church, Freemasons, Reptoids, Them, etc.).

• The idea of the UN instituting a world religion or the UN being a vehicle for the Antichrist has become a common trope among the rapture ready set. Jack Chick was fond of this one.^[7] This idea is also shared to some extent by Jehovah's Witnesses, who consider UN to be the "image of a wild beast" from Revelation 13 and the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" mentioned in Matthew 24:15, which will soon act to destroy all other religions, and finally turn against JWs. The UN has also been accused of being the Harlot being described as "Sitting atop the Nations, Multitudes, Languages, and Tongues" (sitting atop the tongues, what an image!).

• The UN has launched smaller projects such as the "North American Union" to gradually erase national borders.

• After the fall of the Soviet Union, the UN increasingly became the target of anti-environmentalist conspiracy theories, primarily the notion of a power-grab using climate change as a cover. This is due to the UN's institution of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to produce consensus reports on climate change. Conspiracies vary from the "softer" side (the UN is simply cooking the books to enrich itself) to the extremely alarmist (the UN is angling for world domination via alleged "junk science" and the machinations of Al Gore). Another element in this view is that the commies infiltrated the environmental movement after the fall of the USSR and are now using the UN as a tool via environmental policy.^{[note 2]}Christopher Monckton is a proponent of this theory.^[8]

• Agenda 21, the most recent UN-related conspiracy theory, also centers on a non-binding environmental agreement. If you want to know more, Glenn Beck wrote the book.^[9]

• Mix the second and the fourth conspiracies and you get the idea that the UN is attempting to enforce a global Earth-worshiping pagan hippie cult where everyone is forced to sing the praises of Gaia.^{[10][note 3]} This one, at least, could provide some amusement if it were true.

• Sometimes related to the environmental conspiracy theories (usually global warming) is the idea that concern about overpopulation is being used as a scare tactic to lay the groundwork for a genocide or eugenics scheme to kill off the "useless eaters." As if the world's population isn't currently growing at an alarming rate.

• The UN is under the control of Arab/Muslim states and attempting to (a) enable terrorists, (b) usher in the "global caliphate", (c) subtly insert sharia into the American legal system, or (d) all of the above.^{[note 4]}

• The UN Arms Trade Treaty is an attempt of an "end run" around the Second Amendment to take away everyone's guns. Just guess the factual accuracy of that one.^[11]

• Left-ish circles have their own conspiracy theories. Most common is the claim is that the UN is merely the pawn of the United States and its imperialistic schemes. This sometimes plays into fears about globalization (WTO, duh).^[12] This seems to ignore the complete antipathy to the UN and other international organizations that some US administrations have shown in the past.^{[note 5]} The War in Iraq also demonstrated that the US doesn't need no stinkin' UN to carry out imperialistic schemes.

[Witness]

This is a side point, but one event can coincide with another.   The act of disfellowshipping has experienced a total turnaround in the organization. In 1947, excommunication was taught as having no sound scriptural basis.  As time went on, it was adopted as necessary, according to scripture; and gained momentum in its severity as the years passed.  Today, it is a hard-core teaching, with hard-core results. How often are individuals reminded not to have any contact with disfellowshipped ones, and now to shun those who are inactive?

@Kosonen's remark brought this to mind when he said,

It really looks like the WT organization by force tried to fit prophecies to events and dates too early before their right time

When asked if I accepted the doctrine of 1914, my answer of “no” immediately brought the judgment that I would be announced as disfellowshipped at the next meeting. This happens on a consistent basis, and to many anointed ones - probably to all of them leaving the organization.  There is no sin involved, there is no need to repent before God, but before men holding on to their doctrine.  One is considered “apostate” against doctrines not having a sound basis in scripture.  Anyone disfellowshipped knows that to JWs, they are viewed as unworthy in God’s sight, having lost the promise of eternal life.  This is a “beating down” of the person, and their right to think independently, as the Bereans practiced in Paul’s day.

“Now these were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica. They accepted the message with all eagerness, examining the scriptures every day to see if these things were so.”  Acts 17:11

It is a typical hypocritical response by the organization’s leadership, who use this scripture to bring individuals from other religions into the organization.   

When reading Kosnen’s comment, Matt 24:48-51 came to mind.

“Who then is the faithful and wise slave whom the master has put in charge of his household slaves to give them their food at the right time? ⁴⁶ Blessed is that slave whom his master will find so doing when he comes back. ⁴⁷ Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. ⁴⁸ But if that evil slave should say to himself, ‘My master is staying away for a long time,’ ⁴⁹ and he begins to beat his fellow slaves and eats and drinks with drunkards, ⁵⁰ the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and at an hour that he does not know, ⁵¹ and will cut him in two and assign his place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!  Matt 24:48-51

 

 

 

 

 

[Kosonen]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

This seems to ignore the complete antipathy to the UN and other international organizations that some US administrations have shown in the past.^{[note 5]} The War in Iraq also demonstrated that the US doesn't need no stinkin' UN to carry out imperialistic schemes

That's correct. Also President Trump has shown his cold attitude toward UN. USA has lately gathered more antipathy against itself in the world. And great players in the world like Putin know where the culprits of US policy sit and live. Mainly in New York where Council of Foreign Relations is based, an association driving US foreign policy, which is constant war. The world is getting sick of that. 

Even Trump promised to end these stupid wars, But he is unable to change the american deep state. So the world will see that there will be only one option. Well first in the end of the biblical 3 and half years, the American beast has to be destroyed by God. After that only will UN dare to destroy New York with its warmongeres.

[Arauna]

On 1/18/2020 at 6:57 PM, JW Insider said:

Also, this "win" would be declared by the new TOTALITARIAN world order under the totalitarian armies of the UN. The

They got it right...... but 80 years too early.   Atheists do not believe there is a God. So they tend to go to a human philosophy to replace God.  This is why socialism and its promises of equality for all is so appealing to atheists..... it replaces other human governments with nice promises .. and this is the reason we now see new "rights" for so-called minorities such as LGBTQ, Islam, and every sort of minority in the new collectivist philosophy.......and patriarchs (bible lovers) are seen as historical oppressors.  With a majority of people turning atheist and post modern philosophy gaining traction (as in EU and UN) we may soon see a totalitarian type rule with a surveillance system which will end up like the one in China.

 

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 initially praised Hitler's Nazi government

Yes..... the socialism part was deceiving. 

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Initially, of course, the Watchtower praised the League of Nations, as if it were some sort of political expression of God's kingdom on earth,

I’m dubious of that.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

just as Rutherford initially praised Hitler's Nazi government 

I’m dubious of that.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, in neither case did this view last very long, and it was never expressed as if these two political expressions (the League and Hitler) could ever be looked upon as any kind of replacement of God's kingdom. 

Oh. Okay. He just didn’t spit on them the instant they made their appearance—as though he should have been expected to. He acknowledged that a new player has come upon the scene who means to influence for good—the same as you would for Obama. The same as you would for Trump. The same as you would for any human leader who doesn’t introduce himself with the words: “I am the Dark Lord.”

What the identification of the UN with the image of the wild beast has going for it is that nothing, nothing, nothing stands in the holy place where it ought not more than that body. If there is one thing that is holy, it is the notion of God ruling over the earth by means of his Kingdom. If there is one thing that stands more disgustingly in direct contrast it is the notion of Man ruling over the earth by means of his Agency—a composite of all nations.

It is the Federal Counsel of Churches that famously declared the League of Nations was the political expression of God’s Kingdom on earth.

At almost the exact same time, the Witnesses, at their showcase Cedar Point convention, unfurled the banner and made the call: “Advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his Kingdom.” It wasn’t the League of Nations that they had in mind, though it was for the Federal Council of Churches.

Never has there been a more pronounced fork in the road than the two sharply divergent views over who will rule the earth: The mainline churches said it would be government by man. The Witnesses said it would be government by God. The beginning of a course of action in both cases that extends right down to the present.

The fact that the two-headed wild beast forms and promotes it as an image of the original seven-headed beast only clinches the deal

The fact that it goes into the abyss and comes out of it only further clinches it. 

The fact that no drama is more visible ‘from the eastern parts to the western parts’ of the earth only clinches it even further. 

As to the ten bullet points that conclude the wiki article, ten different factions have smelled a rat but they can’t quite put their finger on it and in trying to do so they make statements with various degrees of validity—statements that seem ‘far out’ in some respects. So? Shall this be presented as evidence that they are all nuts, and that there is no reason whatsoever to doubt the general wisdom of that international body and its tools to implement that wisdom? The most slippery slope of all to the acceptance of conspiracy theories is manifested when some of them turn out to be true—thereafter the temptation is to swallow anything that comes down the pipe. 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I doubt that this site is very accurate,

I don’t doubt that at all.

For the bare facts that it lays out, I suspect that it is quite accurate.

What I do doubt about the site is the author’s clear intent to present that organization as human wisdom at its finest—and the “proofs” thereof that he supplies: Look at all the “loony” things that are said about it by the crazies!

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Initially . .  Watchtower praised the League of Nations, as if . . . political expression of God's kingdom on earth,

I’m dubious of that.

(Revelation 17:8, NWT 1984)  The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.

The NWT says above that some would "wonder admiringly" about this beast. The Watchtower in 1919 came out with an article that appears to be a commentary on that same phrase the Federal Council of Churches had used, but they also managed to use words that showed they "wondered admiringly" calling the ideals of this League both wonderful and admirable. But the Watchtower article also compared the League's ideals to show that they were essentially the same as the ideals of God's kingdom, and was even suggesting that this League might be involved in the initiation of the outworking of God's kingdom on earth. Just as the Federation of Churches had done, however, the Watchtower was not saying it was the same as God's kingdom, only that it was a "political" expression of those goals. Just like many in the Federation of Churches, it was realized that it would take more than political goals to actually achieve the full outworking of God's kingdom.

Here are some snippets from the first, last and a middle paragraph of a short article in the Watch Tower,  February 15, 1919,  p.51, with a more complete text of the article below:

 

 

We cannot but admire the high principles embodied in the proposed League of Nations, formulated undoubtedly by those who have no knowledge of the great plan of God. This fact makes all the more wonderful the ideals which they express. For instance, it has been made plain by President Wilson and the advocates of his ideas that the proposed League of Nations is more than merely a league to enforce peace. They would not have us consider it to exclusively from the standpoint of politics or of military relations. It should be considered as fully from the economic and social points of view. The President’s idea seems to be that the League of Nations which he proposes would stand for world service rather than mere world regulation in the military sense, and that the very smallest of nations shall be participants in its every arrangement. In other words, his idea undoubtedly is that the league shall not be established merely for the purpose of promoting peace by threat or coercion; but that its purpose, when put into operation, will be to make all nations of earth one great family, working together for the common benefit in all the avenues of national life. Truly this is idealistic, and approximates in a small way that which God has foretold that he will bring about after this great time of trouble.

So the Watchtower claimed that the Peace Conference and the "virtual reality" of the League of Nations were not merely the evolution of human progress, but were were strides of Jehovah's divine providence. They were a part of Jehovah's day of preparation for the Messianic Kingdom. In a small way this idealistic League of Nations was a political expression of what God's Kingdom would complete on earth.

In fact, one point of the article is that the wonderful and admirable League of Nations is more than just a political expression of God's kingdom, but a social and economic expression of the ideals of God's kingdom on earth, too.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

just as Rutherford initially praised Hitler's Nazi government 

I’m dubious of that.

The letter that Rutherford wrote to Hitler around June 25, 1933 uses pretty much the same logic that the Watchtower had used for supporting the League of Nations. The idea is that the Bible Students stood for the same ethical goals as the Nazi government under Hitler, and that they were in full agreement with them. Hitler's goals were just a political expression of purely religious goals of the Bible Students. The letter says:

The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namely: honesty of the created being towards its creator.

The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.

Of course, Hitler and his government had done very little by that point in 1933 to show how they would go about executing those "same ethical goals." But it was risky for Rutherford to claim they were identical. It's like giving Obama a Nobel Peace Prize just before he expands the current wars and takes the United States into some new ones.

[TrueTomHarley]

 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Hitler's goals were just a political expression of purely religious goals of the Bible Students.

Which “goals” of Hitler that JR agreed with do you think that he was speaking about?

Was JR referring to Hitler’s goal to bring paradise to the entire earth so that residents could pet the animals?

Was JR referring to Hitler’s goal to bring everlasting life in perfect health to all of his subjects?

Was JR referring to Hitler’s goal to break up the works of the devil and hurl him into the abyss?

NO! he was referring to the feel-good cumbaya boiler-plate goals that every human agency that  comes down the pipe promises and fails to deliver because of their insistence to do it by human thinking and not God’s. JR is doing no more than building a bridge of introduction so that the rest of his communication will not be tossed in the trash, the same as Is universally thought a good thing to do with anybody.

What would you have him say: ‘Dear Rat-face’?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, Hitler and his government had done very little by that point in 1933 to show how they would go about executing those "same ethical goals." 

This is why he chose tact at the time and didn’t say: “Dear Rat-face.” He did later on.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

We cannot but admire the high principles embodied in the proposed League of Nations, formulated undoubtedly by those who have no knowledge of the great plan of God.

Same here: What “high principles” do you think are being referenced?

Was Is the League’s high principle to bring paradise to the entire earth so that residents could pet the animals?

Was Is the League’s high principle to bring everlasting life in perfect health to all of earth’s subjects?

Was Is the League’s high principle to break up the works of the devil and hurl him into the abyss?

NO! he was referring to the feel-good cumbaya boiler-plate high principles that every human agency that  comes down the pipe promises and fails to deliver because of their insistence to do it by human thinking and not God’s!

Certain ones have commented with some disapproval —I think you have been one of them—at the seeming ‘need’ of the organization to diss anything that does not come from them. Here you seem to be holding them accountable for not doing just that.

 

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Which “goals” of Hitler that JR agreed with do you think that he was speaking about?

That's a very bad question if you are trying to exonerate JFR here.

I'm sure you already know this, but Hitler didn't come out of the blue. The goals of the Hitler's Nazi party had already been made clear in the 1920's. Hitler was actually becoming important in internal political and military circles in 1918/9, when the first swastika flags were seen even at the tail end of WWI. He had been an intelligence officer in WWI. Also as a political operative he was not speaking just for himself, but amassed more political power by standing for popular ideas about remilitarizing to prove the true superiority of the Teutonic race, and that they would have won WWI, except for the UK and of course Jewish Bolshevism. Even before 1920, the foundations of the Nazi party were already "coming into their own."

Because the Nazi party was very anti-Socialist (in spite of its name), it also grew in parallel with Italian fascism under Mussolini, whose party also gained power from the end of WWI. Mussolini was a "social Darwinian" racist (white supremacist), but not nearly as anti-Jewish as Hitler's party. Still it was a clear that Italy fascist party and Germany's fascist party (the Nazis) were trending in the same direction. Mussolini was breaking unions, was pro-capitalist, for privatizing businesses,etc. Both Nazism and Italian Fascism were seen as the "Anti-Revolution Revolution" or "Revolution of the Right" opposing the leftist Leninist style revolution of the left. The Russian revolution was spreading its ideology in some ways across Europe, as already seen in Finland and Romania and Ukraine, and Nazism was the cure. 

When Hitler staged his premature coup to get power in 1925, of course, he was caught and sent to jail, where he wrote Mein Kampf. By the mid-to-late-20s, Mein Kampf had made very clear all the basic components of his ideology. His goals were to bring Germany back into WWI to win it this time. He also made clear that lying and backstabbing and false propaganda were going to be necessary "tools." The book along with his speeches promoted rabid anti-Semitism in the 1920's which he toned down only by the early 1930's to be more electable and respectable. He was visited by many Americans before he took power, being seen as a celebrity. Many others in the party did not control their anti-Semitic rhetoric in their political speeches. Not that it mattered, because it started to come back with a vengeance through Hitler himself within months of his election.  

So his goals were clear from the 1920's. His party would be built on German imperialism, racial supremacy, fascism/nazism, and in his rise to prominence, he had used this rhetoric of revenge (over WWI, Treaty of Versailles) to push German even the socialist workers to the right. (Through inflitration and lying propaganda whenever necessary.)  He wanted to erase the shame of WWI, blaming the loss on Britain and Jews. German society saw the rhetoric rising but still assumed he could never become electable. But with rising industrialization, Hitler made fascism seem feasible. The premonitions in his rhetoric of the early and mid 20's made it seem realistic that that Germany should re-arm and conquer the world. The rationale for making war on the west was Jewish Bolshevism and the fact that they were blockaded by Britain, and obviously it was Russian-Jewish Bolshevism in the east since 1917.

If I haven't repeated myself enough already above, he was already a scary, militaristic, fascist, anti-socialist, anti-British, anti-Jewish, white supremacist. So I don't know what goals Rutherford thought were identical, but he already would have known much of the above history because I'm sure he had been reading the writing of a Jewish person who had already reported this by early 1933. But this same Jewish man had also written in April 1933 that Hitler's party, even though ostensibly pro-Catholic, didn't care anymore and had been breaking up not just socialist and communist meetings, but Catholic meetings, too.

Perhaps this is why Rutherford thought it was safe to include the following in his letter:

The Brooklyn headquarter of the Watchtower Society is pro German in an exemplary way and has been so for many years. . . . These two magazines, "The Watchtower" and "Bible Student" were the only magazines in America which refused to engage in anti-German propaganda . . . . In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and Catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and its board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to repudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews.

And the "Declaration" letter at the the same time included the following statements. The WTS was apparently not ashamed of them because they even printed them in English in the 1934 Yearbook, p. 134-138. The support for Hitler's Nazi principles are aligned with Hitler's propaganda against Jews and the British nation, and Rutherford admits his anti-Catholicism, too (which might NOT have aligned with Hitler's principles).

It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received financial support for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the truth. Up to this hour there never has been the slightest bit of money contributed to our work by Jews. We are the faithful followers of Christ Jesus and believe upon Him as the Savior of the world, whereas the Jews entirely reject Jesus Christ and emphatically deny that he is the Savior of the world sent of God for man's good. This of itself should be sufficient proof to show that we receive no support from Jews and that therefore the charges against us are maliciously false and could proceed only from Satan, our great enemy. The greatest and the most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.

The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nations. Such is exactly our position.

Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart.

A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications and show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be attained by all persons who love righteousness.

[Arauna]

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

also centers on a non-binding environmental agreement. If you wan

 

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes..... the socialism part was deceiving. 

Just to clarify: extreme socialism becomes communism and extreme capitalism also ends up looking  like communism.  Both end up with a few rich people on the top who further enrich themselves and later end up as dictating all policy - and both end up with a majority of equally poor population underneath. The middle class disappears when a few corporations start to run everything.

This is now happened in USA. So our leaders and global  corporations have been conniving and enriching themselves in China.  So the world's  oligarchs can work together on a policy to keep financial control....... which they have done.  This is why both communists and capitalists support UN agenda 21 and donate lots of money to further its goals.

[JW Insider]

42 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Just to clarify: extreme socialism becomes communism and extreme capitalism also ends up looking  like communism. 

Extreme socialism does become communism. But extreme capitalism does not look like communism, it's the definition of fascism. Capitalism defended by a militaristic state is fascism.

42 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Both end up with a few rich people on the top who further enrich themselves and later end up as dictating all policy - and both end up with a majority of equally poor population underneath.

You have likely been listening to a lot of the same propaganda that now has most of the world in its thrall. I listened to it, too, for most of my life. The problem with your theory is that the United States, through dozens of once-secret sources, which are now in the open, prove definitively that the United States was deathly afraid of communism because it brings poor people out of poverty much quicker than capitalism ever has. This is the reason that communism is a "threat" and has to be interfered with and sabotaged constantly. It's the reason that the United States has chosen to destroy nations like North Korea and Vietnam and Libya and Syria and Venezuela and Nicaragua and even much smaller nations, more defenseless than those.

The United States has been running scared for decades, because of the theory that people might notice that communism, at least Marxist communism, is a scientific approach to the economy such that more poor in the population rise above the poverty level.

Russian communism, in spite of two world wars, and a couple of very paranoid leaders, managed to build itself up from a very poor economy with most of the population in poverty, to the second biggest economy in the world in just the 40 years from about 1917 to 1957. US Capitalism, for example, though a much richer country, barely moved the bar on the percentage of people it could bring out of poverty in any 40 year period.

China's communism is creating an economy that has now very likely become the number one economy in the world. And it was and still is a poor, overpopulated country.  In the years since its revolution in the late 1940's it has managed to bring more persons out of poverty than all other nations put together. There is a rumor that they might have completely raised virtually everyone above the poverty line by late 2020 or 2021. And this is what's reported by Western journalists, not just Chinese sources. And China has done this without bombing countries for their resources or using the US/IMF/WorldBank tactics of creating loans to be defaulted on so that the leverage on those loans allows rampant stealing of resources, trade for military bases, pipelines, etc. In fact, John Bolton was angry at China for using tactics in Africa that made local populations "prefer" China over America when it came to doing business for their valuable resources (rare earth metals, etc). Those "tactics" include NOT using loans for leverage, NOT using military proxies to murder uncooperative local populations, NOT promoting civil war to weaken the country, NOT attempting regime changes, NOT building infrastructure that is clearly for the purpose of American military bases, NOT using a majority of Chinese persons as workers in these lands to hurt the local economies, etc.

These "tactics" have worked so well, that almost everything the United States has done to make themselves unpopular in the world is projected onto China to try to make China look worse. Even the surveillance initiatives that you have often brought up are only in the testing stages and are still chaotic and experimental. They have been tried in only a few test areas and cities in China and they are not nearly as pervasive as such surveillance systems are in the United States.

Don't get the idea that I think Communism is a proper solution for the world, or that I think that these countries can do no wrong. They are led by humans, influenced by Satan, and will make dangerous mistakes just like every other nation. The only true solution to human governments is a government by God, God's Kingdom under Christ.