I Almost Wish That There Was More Public Kickback From WT Regarding CSA Charges

[TrueTomHarley]

7 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Since the time that the supposed Hunchback of Notre Dame swung from the bells in the bell tower, CLERGY has been afforded special dispensations by the civil authorities.

Even the civil authorities are in many governments referred to as "ministers".

Do you feel that Victor Blackwell was wrong, then, to legally defend my brothers? 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He would represent pioneers and special pioneers and congregation servants (back when it was 100+ hours) during WWII when they applied for draft exemption due to minister status. Church ministers never had the slightest difficulty in landing such exemptions, he reports. Pioneers, special pioneers, congregation servants, anyone associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses, were invariably denied. Judges recognized only ministers who 1) “had a church” and 2) got paid.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

It seems that you are trying VERY hard to divert the conversation from the real issue.

Your question has NOTHING to do with facts.

My opinion on what you asked about is completely immaterial.

How about this ..... I get an opinion from you about what I posted first?

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

How about this ..... I get an opinion from you about what I posted first?

I think you talents are better spent in discussing end-time prophesy with Kos.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I will take that as a refusal to acknowledge reality as it REALLY exists.

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So what do you do when it is necessary to interact with the legal system of the world? In a world where there is some respect for God, the organization role of elders is what will be recognized as the equivalent of clergy, notwithstanding that elders do it for free. But as the world loses respect for God, then it is the salary that becomes the determining factor—do they make a living with it or not.

Perhaps WT lawyers should go against secular legal laws and system in this issue about terminology and fight for same "privileges" as Christendom Priests, but not to be named as "clergy". And with such act put existing religious hypocrisy on Next Level. :))

[TrueTomHarley]

12 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Evans is on a quest to suggest all kingdom halls are dangerous places and all witnesses are evil pedophiles. An echo of 4jah2me aka John butler.

I don’t follow him as a matter of routine—once in a while I peek—because if I do so I am tempted to respond and if I do that he is nothing but taunting and contemptuous. It is not as though I cannot hold my own & make even inroads but there is hardly any point to it. It is a been there/done that. Besides, I told the elders that I will not do that anymore (not regarding him specifically) and if they ask me again I don’t want to be tempted to lie. Should I cave a time or two, I will readily forgive myself—not to worry on that score—but I would rather not cave by putting the temptation before myself constantly. “Some people just needs ‘Killeen ’” says JTR, but that doesn’t mean you ought be the one to do it. It has a way of sucking out large chunks of time that can better be used elsewhere. There are a few here that I have come to put in the same category as Evans and at most hastily skim their remarks because if I do more than that I am tempted to respond—with the same drawbacks as with he.

Today detractors charge what they do before a worldwide audience—the very people whom we are trying to reach, and they at least can be expected to mull it over because there is nothing to counter it. Granted, there are so many other horrific things to monitor in the world that it is hard for anti-JW activists to put their ‘good news’ on the front burner, but it would be silly to say that it has no effect. It wouldn’t take much to counter it. Even a talk parallel to what Bro Losch just gave at the annual meeting regarding dates that failed to come true might do the trick. Once a matter is spoken or written about once, you can keep referring back to it. 

The idea is not to silence opposers, for that cannot be done. The idea is to give some who may be swayed by them, even some of our own, something to offset their charges. The organization may choose to do that someday. Or maybe not—time will tell. It certainly is not the ‘whatever is righteous, whatever is chaste, true, lovable,’ etc where we like to remain, so that is good reason to avoid it. But there may be some who feel some sort of defense would come in handy.

Opposers will always have limits to their efforts because they have nothing to replace what they would take away, and most people became Witnesses in the first place because they felt exploring the world that is yourself only goes so far as a philosophy of life.  Still, I have seen people gleefully saw off the branch on which they are sitting and laugh with victory as they crashed to the ground, like the Dr. Strangelove cowboy who rides the nuke down to destruction, whooping and waving his hat as he drops, so some generalized pushback might be in order to prevent that whenever possible. Is Lloyd doing what you say, trying to paint Kingdom Halls as dangerous places and JWs as dangerous pedophiles? Good. Nasty people usually overplay their hand and in so doing torpedo their own case—never before their followers, of course, but before anyone of sense, it happens.

I’m not suggesting anyone get into a play-by-play scenario with the ‘good news‘ of those who oppose. I was struck by how, after the first Montana verdict, there were persons who wanted to rub my nose line by line into that first verdict so as to point out how the courts ruled JWs violated law! and then after reversal of that verdict, they said, ‘well, what do you expect? Witnesses follow the law—it’s the law that is not written right.’ People like to follow play-by-play in ongoing court trials these days to the extent that I almost say, ‘Well, send the jury home, then—they don’t want to be there anyway. Put it all on social media and decide the matter by ‘likes’. I never weigh in on developing matters—it is nothing more that common sense modesty to realize that since you can see but 1% of what the judge or jury sees, it is a fool’s mission to go there.

I’m not speaking of anything detailed as a defense, because details will not be constant from one situation to another. They represent non-repeatable human idiosyncrasies, and I have no problem accepting that people can do and say wrong and dumb things. No. Just something like the generalized facts I outlined in the post, so that if anyone wants to research our stand on matters, they will have more to research than a statement that we “abhor child sexual abuse.”

I am usually shouted down when I bring up Anna’s example—the kumbaya site practically chased me out with pitchforks (though not everyone)—but her example strikes me as a very sensible one—to familiarize herself with “apostate” ideas, so that, in the event her teenage son stumbles across them one fine day and is stumbled, she is able to help him. It is only icing on the cake that the kid is now an adult, has apparently never wobbled, and wonders why is mom is blowing so much time with those crazies on the internet. If there were a few resident experts at each Kingdom Hall, people who knew how to keep tabs on what is bad and knew that doIng so you does not require you to watch every Jerry Springer episode on the topic, and you don’t want to because if you immerse yourself in what is sordid in any subject it affects your well-being—you know, balanced people—that it would be a good thing, not a bad thing, because then you might be able to help ones stumbled.. 

You don’t want to encourage people to go there, just like you don’t want to encourage people to go anywhere that toxic people hang out. These days, pop psychologists win approval by telling you do dump friends and even family members who are “toxic” in favor or those who are not. But to all but forbid people to go produces a strange effect of fleeing from the apostate as one would flee from the bogeyman. You have scenarios like that played out in the drama where the Russian brother inquires of his old friend only to hear that the old friend succumbed to reading literature critical of the organization and is no longer serving Jehovah—as though that’s all it takes to derail decades of service to God—read a few brochures and you are toast. It’s ridiculous. Better to say, in my view, ‘go there if you must and be on the lookout for the unforgiving slave, for Demas, for the ones who went out because they are not of our sort, for the one fixated on the straws in others’ eyes, for the slave that buried the talent because his master was harsh, effectively saying ‘You want disciples? Go out and make them yourself! I’ve got things to do!”  Any drama is better, easier to follow, and easier to appreciate, when there are bad guys in the plot.

But won’t some go there and decide the ‘bad guys’ are actually the good guys? Probably. But I suspect no more than when we counsel so strongly not to even glance in a certain direction, and by so doing we appear exactly like a cult to people brought up in its modern definition. Drop down a notch to ‘investigate with caution if you must’ and the perception disappears. Amber Scorah has “her eyes opened” only when she goes into missionary work in China and begins correspondence with an “apostate” for whom it appears that she later dumped her husband In order to run off with? She should have had “her eyes opened” a long time ago, and if she had, that ridiculous phrase would have disappeared from the vocabulary by now. She herself would not be saying that she had her eyes opened—she would be saying that she went off because, like Demas, she prefers the world that JWs have fled—that JWs allowed her to see both plainly, and she chose the pathway that they did not.

The reason that this change of tactics will happen only by small degrees, if it happens at all, is due to what the scriptures say about those taking the lead. They are like the loyal shepherd who sees the wolf climbing the fence and holds the sheep out of harm’s way. They are like the farmer who knows that when you look behind, your plowing goes awry and the rows get all funny. They are like the strategist who says that they will slam you no matter what you do, so ignore them and press the pedal to the metal. They are like the doctor who says to keep away from what will raise your blood pressure and knot your stomach in favor of what is soothing to the soul. They are like the pop psychologist who says you should dump those toxic relationships. They are like the nursing mother who treats the flock tenderly and with protectiveness. They are not like the mom who says, “Alright, lean on that hot stove—see if I care! HA! Burned yourself, ya little snot? That’ll teach ya!” And they certainly are not like the brainwasher who says don’t go there, —‘all the better for me to manipulate you, my dear, hehehe:))))))’ even though that is the only way opposers, and to an increasing respect, the overall world sees it. Why play into their hands? Why go out of our way to prove Jesus’ words that the sons of this system know which way the secular wind blows but the sons of the light wouldn’t even know how to tie the laces of a secular shoe if you gave them one?

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Where have you been TTH? Your pal Evans is on a quest to suggest all kingdom halls are dangerous places and all witnesses are evil pedophiles. An echo of 4jah2me aka John butler.

No wonder I love the Org. It is one organization that is hated so much, ex-witnesses here think the word “hate” is not part of their vocabulary, even though they prove it at every time. I love this site, the humor is overwhelming!

CSA is a global pandemic like the influenza. Everyone is susceptible to the infection, but only ex-witnesses scream bloody murder with disgruntled witnesses agreeing with manipulated and orchestrated facts.

Let alone them not understanding the rules of secular law, even though they just need to google.

TTH, it's a waste of time!

CC I notice you only joined in November last year. I wonder what name you were using before that ?

It's strange you need to join me to someone else to make yourself feel good. Does it boost your confidence or just give you a kick. 

However, yes, Kingdom Halls can be dangerous places if people are not aware of the CSA situation within the JW Org. 

Most victims will say that once Sexual Abuse has happened to them, it cannot be forgotten. And of course most JWs that have no idea about being Sexually Abused, will say that it can be easily forgotten. 

JWs are taught to have an emotional on/off switch. Such a drastic switch that it spends 90% of it's time turned off. Hence they have no fellow feeling, no love.

As for Paedophiles, it only takes one in a congregation of 150 people, especially if that one is an Elder.  No matter what the GB or the Org say, Elders and others do spend time alone with children from the congregation. 

Part of the 'way of life' in JW Org, is to trust one another. It is 'advertised' as a 'safe place' and the Elders are 'advertised' as 'rocks' or 'pillars of strength' to protect the congregants. That is how it is so easy for an Elder to abuse a child. 

In most other churches the people in the congregation hardly even talk to each other. They are not in their church chatting half hour before and half hour after the service.

Hate. It seems to be a word that JWs on here love to use. Some JWs, including CC and TTH it seems, have a need, a longing, to form this opinion about anyone that dares to find fault with the GB and the W/t and JW Org. 

In my opinion, it only shows that the JWs using the word 'hate', are the ones that feel that way toward anyone that criticises the GB Org etc. As for me I have no hate toward any human in general. If a reason came up for me to hate someone it would need to be a very serious reason. 

CSA is global yes. And it is global within the JW Org.  Otherwise why are so many countries now involved in doing investigations into JW Org and W/t.

This forum is a JW forum, hence it concerns only JWs / GB / JW Org / W/t. Hence it is not 'picking on' the JW Org, it is all about the JW Org. 

As for law. I'm more interested in God's laws than man's. 

Quote "There is no redemption for these people" So, CC, has Jesus Christ made you the judge already

You who talk of hate. 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

The one area where detractors have some validity is in saying that the children of JWs do not make the same choice as did their parents. The parents searched, sometimes for decades. They weighed both paths carefully before choosing the pathway of serving God over the pathway of pursuing the common goals of the world. Their children have never made this search—they were ‘born into the truth’—something we portray as a great asset, and yet something that contains the same drawbacks as being born into wealth. We probably are naive to think that ‘born into the truth’ does not make one vulnerable in some respects. 

The first generation makes the wealth and is thereafter grounded in life. The second generation inherits it, and deprived of that values-forming experience, becomes insufferable, unappreciative, profligate, isolated from the common people—some combination of the foregoing. It doesn’t have to work that way, but it does enough times for the pattern to become a stereotype. 

What’s a wealthy person to do? Cast his son out to live in the refrigerator box until he earns his own wealth? Obviously not. Better to be born into wealth than into poverty. Better to be born into a spiritual paradise than into a spiritual dessert. But the wealthy parent that has any sense makes his son experience what he did himself to the degree possible—makes the kid start on the factory floor as a regular worker, for example—makes the kid earn privileges, doesn’t just hand him things—makes him work his way into his inheritance. 

The Witness parent who simply expects the offspring to ‘make the truth your own’ without allowing him a glimpse into the other side—well, couldn’t that be likened to the wealthy parent who expects his offspring to ‘make the family wealth your own’ without allowing the character-building and adversity-overcoming experiences that formed he himself?

It is a matter of degree as to how that is done—I would not suggest that nobody is doing it—and each family must find its own. Since the beginning of time, parents have endeavored to bring their children up in principles they have convinced themselves are true. Since the Industrial Age at least, general society has tried to pull those children away into its own paths. There certainly is no educational reason that children should be schooled away from their parents at ages as young as 4. It is for societal reasons that compulsory public schooling began. Children ought be separated from the pernicious influence and prejudices of their parents, the thinking went, to make them more compliant to the greater aims of whatever times they live in.

So Witnesses are going to train their children in godly principles—that is only to be expected. It is not the case that if you leave children untrained, they will grow up free, unencumbered, and when of age, with choose their own values from the rich cornucopia of life’s offerings. No. All it means is that someone else will train them. The anti-JW activists are only bellyaching because they want to be the trainers—they do not raise the same protest with regard to the children of anyone else.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Witnesses follow the law—it’s the law that is not written right.

As it is well known, JW's have to follow two sorts of laws. One is Law expressed in Jesus teachings and commands .... and simultaneously , next is Secular law (under "satan" influence, as it is explained and understand by bible scholars). 

Obviously, every law have some moments when paragraphs don't give explanation and guidance how to resolve something. For example, blood ban in Bible talking how eating blood is forbidden, but this law have nothing to say about transfusion and saving life. So, people who want to pleased god, making deep thinking and bring human commands about bible's law. 

Secular law also have same problematic. Life making new challenges and need for new details in law making production of various paragraphs. 

JW's are blessed in all this confusion. When one law don't have clear guideline about something, perhaps another one has ..... and vice versa.

In other words, JW people have no excuse about, because of any sort of shortage in this two kind of Laws, what and how to act in difficult situation.

:))

[JW Insider]

15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

We probably are naive to think that ‘born into the truth’ does not make one vulnerable in some respects. 

You have several recent posts here that would fit right in to the recent topic that Anna started in the closed club. 4J laughs at it, to be sure, but he holds a perspective that reflects his admitted lack of trust for just about anyone and anything. But, I just wanted to say that I suspect you are giving this whole idea a lot of very good and deep thought. Not that I'm the best judge of such things, but it's a matured perspective, too, I'm thinking. I hope you are planning to put it together into a very accessible format to refer to again (like a book/blog/etc). And I should add that I'm glad it's out here in the open for a little more public scrutiny.

I have personally avoided Evan's videos and site(s). But I paid attention for a bit when The Atlantic published something that appears to have come from someone associated with him. There were issues with bias in the article, and outright mistakes of fact. I think this was actually not Evans himself, but it reflected a lot of "bald" hatred of elders and the whole arrangement that supplies them. Like you say, it's as they've tasted something that the rest of us see as good, and they see it all as bad. I lose interest quickly when thinking becomes so black and white that they focus ONLY on the extremes and don't even think about what is generally going on.

Like going to a huge banquet/picnic where hundreds of items of great food are available to choose from, but because someone brought some tainted potato salad, they go around screaming that everything has been poisoned.

[Srecko Sostar]

7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Like going to a huge banquet/picnic where hundreds of items of great food are available to choose from, but because someone brought some tainted potato salad, they go around screaming that everything has been poisoned.

Because of possibility (proved until now) how some dishes are indeed poisoned on the table with other food, what will be advice, how to give warning to people around the table to not eat specific food?

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

In my opinion, it only shows that the JWs using the word 'hate', are the ones that feel that way toward anyone that criticises the GB Org etc.

I don't know, of course, what sort of feeling and in what degree, level, is in soul of JW members while obeys commands about not speaking, greeting with ex-JW. Is that hate, animosity, anger, pride ...? But, it is condition, human relation that need to be book written about it.  :))