A "Conversation" about 1914 as it appeared in the Watchtower's "1914-2014 Anniversary Celebration" issues.

[Ann O'Maly]

13 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't think so. 

Excerpt from WT 11/10/1

When were the Jews released? The decree ending their exile was issued in “the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia.” (See the box “A Pivotal Date in History.”) Thus, by the fall of 537 B.C.E., the Jews had returned to Jerusalem to restore true worship.—Ezra 1:1-5; 2:1; 3:1-5.

Those scriptures only talk about them settling in their cities in the 7th month and building some makeshift temporary altar.

Ezra 3:6 - From the first day of the seventh month they started to offer up burnt sacrifices to Jehovah, though the foundation of Jehovah’s temple had not yet been laid.

Ezra 3:8 - In the second year after they came to the house of the true God at Jerusalem, in the second month, Ze·rubʹba·bel the son of She·alʹti·el, Jeshʹu·a the son of Je·hozʹa·dak and the rest of their brothers, the priests and the Levites, and all those who had come to Jerusalem out of the captivity started the work; they appointed the Levites from 20 years old and up to serve as supervisors over the work of the house of Jehovah.

So the Jews, quite sensibly, didn't start work on the temple during the winter but waited till the next spring (536, WT time).

[Anna]

38 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Or do you have a resolution for this anomaly?

Yes. You try not to figure out exactly which deportation Jeremiah was applying the 70 years to, because as you know there was more than one deportation. So to be on the safe side, you count the 70 years back from when the Jews returned to Jerusalem and started rebuilding the temple.

Also, I am thinking that just because the letter was sent to specific people, doesn't mean that one should have started counting from exactly that time from when the letter was delivered. The 70 years it seems were applicable to when all of Judea lay desolate and the land was unworked. This could naturally be difficult, to pinpoint exactly when that started. I believe there were always some stragglers left behind, so the land was never absolutely without a single Jew at any one time. (I don't think time in history can always be approached like a scientific experiment in a lab, where you can measure out exact amounts of a substance. In my opinion anyway...)

[Anna]

1 hour ago, Ann O'Maly said:

So the Jews, quite sensibly, didn't start work on the temple during the winter but waited till the next spring (536, WT time).

Again, when does one pinpoint exactly when to start counting the Jews as "having returned to Jerusalem"? The WT article chose the date when true worship was resumed, albite as you say; on makeshift altars. I assume that would have been about 6 months prior?

[Ann O'Maly]

32 minutes ago, Anna said:

You try not to figure out exactly which deportation Jeremiah was applying the 70 years to, because as you know there was more than one deportation. So to be on the safe side, you count the 70 years back from when the Jews returned to Jerusalem and started rebuilding the temple.

The problem with that approach is that God's promise in v.10 would have been meaningless or misleading to those thousands of exiles already there. The whole reason for the letter was to neutralize false information coming from bad prophets who said the Babylonian yoke will be broken within a couple of years (Jer. 27 & 28). The letter was meant for those already exiled - not for those still in Jerusalem who, at that point in time, may never have ended up in exile. After all, God was giving them opportunities to avoid disaster:

Jer. 27:11, 17 - But the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to cultivate it and dwell in it.

Do not listen to them. Serve the king of Babylon and you will keep living. Why should this city become a ruin?

Had they listened, Jerusalem would have been left alone and no more captives would have been taken. Jerusalem's destruction was not a foregone conclusion; 70 years servitude to Babylon (regardless of whether the Jews were exiled or at home) was inescapable.

[Ann O'Maly]

49 minutes ago, Anna said:

Again, when does one pinpoint exactly when to start counting the Jews as "having returned to Jerusalem"? The WT article chose the date when true worship was resumed, albite as you say; on makeshift altars. I assume that would have been about about 6 months prior?

Ezra said Cyrus' decree was given in his 1st year. WT understands that to have been late 538/early 537 (we won't go into how valid or otherwise that assumption is for now). The trip, according to Ezra 7:9, takes about 4 months. Ezra also said the Jews were settled in their cities by the 7th month (Tishri - around October). Therefore, WT understands that the first batch of Jews had returned to their homeland in 537.

"Then, during his first year as ruler of Babylon, Cyrus issued a decree opening the way for the Jewish exiles to return to Jerusalem. (Ezr 1:1-4) ... A remnant that numbered 42,360 (including men, women, and children) made the journey, arriving in Judah in 537 B.C.E. (Ezr 1:5–3:1; 4:1)"
- it-2 p. 332 - Insight, Volume 2

[AlanF]

Anna said:

Quote

Doesn't [Jeremiah 29:10] mention 70 years of captivity to the Babylonians and the desolation of the land?

That's a big oversimplification of what Jeremiah said, so let's look at several of the passages of interest.

Jer. 29:10 New American Standard Bible
<< For this is what the Lord says: ‘When seventy years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill My good word to you, to bring you back to this place. >>

That says nothing about 70 years of captivity. It does say 70 years for Babylon. The sense is that when 70 years of Babylonian supremacy over something -- which other passages show is supremacy over the entire Middle East -- when 70 years of supremacy over the Middle East have ended, God would return the Jews to Judah.

The New World Translation in English follows the obsolete King James Version here, and uses "70 years AT Babylon". Many commentators have shown why this is wrong.

The above is entirely consistent with all other relevant passages -- as long as Watchtower spin is not applied. Take a look (this material is borrowed from the essay I pointed you to ( https://ad1914.com/biblical-evidence-against-watchtower-society-chronology/ 😞

Linguistic, contextual and historical biblical facts show that Jeremiah predicted that Judah and the nations around it would, as a group, serve Nebuchadnezzar’s dynasty for 70 years (Jer. 25:8-12; 27:6-7). The key passage is Jer. 25:11: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” The Bible and secular history show that Judah and various nations individually served less than 70 years, depending on when they were first conquered and how one measures “serving.” God, through Jeremiah and other prophets, gave each nation the choice whether to serve on their own land or in exile (Jer. 27:7-11, 17; 40:9-10). To serve in their own land they had to submit to Nebuchadnezzar. The Jews under various kings refused; hence they were taken into exile at various times from 605/4 through 582 BCE (Dan. 1:1-2; Jer. 52:28-30). Thus there was no 70-year exile or captivity or desolation of Judah.

A key point is: Jer.29:10 and Jer.25:11 are consistent: the Jews and surrounding nations would SERVE Babylon 70 years. Whether they would serve while remaining in their own land, or as captives in Babylon, depended upon their peacefully submitting to Babylon.

The 70 years of Babylonian supremacy ended in 539 BCE when Jehovah “called to account” against, or punished, Nebuchadnezzar’s dynasty (Jer. 25:12) by allowing the Medo-Persian empire under Cyrus to conquer Babylon and put an end to Nebuchadnezzar’s dynasty. This is directly stated in Daniel 5, where verses 28-30 say: “Your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians… in that very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed.” In contrast, the Society claims that Nebuchadnezzar’s dynasty was called to account two years after its demise, when the Persians freed the Jews to return home (w79 9/15 pp. 23-24; g 5/13 p. 13), but this is ridiculous. You cannot punish a dynasty that no longer exists.

2 Chronicles 36:20 states that Nebuchadnezzar’s minions carried off Jews to Babylon, and these Jews remained servants to Nebuchadnezzar’s dynasty until the Persians under Cyrus took over, after which they were servants to Cyrus and his minions until Cyrus let them return to Judah. This confirms again that the 70 years were a time of Babylonian supremacy, not the term of the desolation of Judah. That desolation occurred during the 70 years. This is consistent with Jer. 25:8, 11, 12 which states that the Jews and nations round about would be servants to “Nebuchadnezzar and his sons” until God called them to account.

Because Jews were taken into exile in 605/4, 597, 587 and 582 BCE, and released in 538, there was not just a single period of exile or captivity. Therefore it is wrong to speak of a 70-year exile or captivity. Similarly it is wrong to speak of a 70-year desolation of Judah, because Jerusalem was ruined (Hebrew: chorbah) in a relative sense from the Jewish point of view when Nebuchadnezzar first took a few captives (including Daniel) in 605/4 BCE, and in a complete sense after most of the Jews left the land between 587 and 582 BCE.

Much more could be said about all this, but I'm sure issues will come up during this discussion.

[AlanF]

Anna said:

Quote

12 hours ago, AlanF said:
... The Watchtower's claim has nothing to do with when the foundations of the temple were laid. 537 has only to do with their claimed date for when some of the Jews returned to Judah.

Quote

 

I don't think so. 

Excerpt from WT 11/10/1

When were the Jews released? The decree ending their exile was issued in “the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia.” (See the box “A Pivotal Date in History.”) Thus, by the fall of 537 B.C.E., the Jews had returned to Jerusalem to restore true worship.—Ezra 1:1-5; 2:1; 3:1-5.

 

This says nothing about laying the foundations of the temple. It does say something about returning to Jerusalem to restore true worship, and Ezra does say something about laying the temple foundations:

Ezra 3:8-10 states that the temple foundations were laid in the second month of the second year of the Jews' return. The first year of the Jews' return ran from either Tishri, 539 BCE through Elul, 538 BCE, or Nisan, 538 BCE through Adar, 537 BCE. Assuming the more likely Tishri-Tishri dating system, the second year began in Tishri, 538 BCE. In Against Apion I,21, Josephus states that “in the second year of the reign of Cyrus [the temple’s] foundations were laid.” Therefore, this second Jewish year overlaps with the second year of Cyrus. Since Cyrus’ second year began in Nisan, 537 BCE, the second month Iyyar was also in 537. Therefore, the temple's foundations were laid in Iyyar, 537 BCE.

You can find my extended discussion of all of this here: https://critiquesonthewatchtower.org/new-articles/2019/02/why_jews_returned_538.pdf

[Anna]

3 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Had they listened, Jerusalem would have been left alone and no more captives would have been taken. Jerusalem's destruction was not a foregone conclusion; 70 years servitude to Babylon (regardless of whether the Jews were exiled or at home) was inescapable.

Yes, the 70 years were a given, so you will still probably agree that the 70 years of servitude to Babylon, whether Jerusalem was to be destroyed or not, or whether some of the Jews stayed or not,  had to start somewhere. Counting back 70 years from the return of the Jews to Jerusalem (or the decree by Cyrus to rebuild the temple) could still be an option to pinpoint when the 70 years started or not?

[Anna]

3 hours ago, AlanF said:

Quote

Excerpt from WT 11/10/1

When were the Jews released? The decree ending their exile was issued in “the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia.” (See the box “A Pivotal Date in History.”) Thus, by the fall of 537 B.C.E., the Jews had returned to Jerusalem to restore true worship.—Ezra 1:1-5; 2:1; 3:1-5.

 

This says nothing about laying the foundations of the temple. It does say something about returning to Jerusalem to restore true worship,

I suppose the decree to rebuild the temple was as good as laying the foundations?

Insight 1 p.417 (captivity) "Early in 537 B.C.E., Persian King Cyrus II issued a decree permitting the captives to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. (2Ch 36:20, 21; Ezr 1:1-4) "

 

[Anna]

3 hours ago, AlanF said:

A key point is: Jer.29:10 and Jer.25:11 are consistent: the Jews and surrounding nations would SERVE Babylon 70 years. Whether they would serve while remaining in their own land, or as captives in Babylon, depended upon their peacefully submitting to Babylon.

Yes.  I agree. The question is of course; when do the 70 years start, or end?

 

[Anna]

3 hours ago, AlanF said:

Therefore it is wrong to speak of a 70-year exile or captivity.

Why would Jeremiah speak of a 70 year exile or captivity then?

[AlanF]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

I suppose the decree to rebuild the temple was as good as laying the foundations?

No. While the foundations were laid in the 2nd year of the Return, opposers quickly put a stop to the building. It was not resumed until the reign of Darius Hystaspis, and completed sometime around 516/515 BCE.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Insight 1 p.417 (captivity) "Early in 537 B.C.E., Persian King Cyrus II issued a decree permitting the captives to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. (2Ch 36:20, 21; Ezr 1:1-4) "

A decree permitting them to build is in no way the same as them starting the building.