Creation-Evolution-Creative Days-Age of the Earth-Humanoid Fossils-Great Flood

[TrueTomHarley]

14 hours ago, AlanF said:

Note, in the following excerpts from Watchtower publications, that the Society has wrongly equated "creationism" with "young-earth creationism":

Why you think they should strive to capture the nuances of what both you and they think is faulty is beyond me.

14 hours ago, AlanF said:

But believers in the Bible God have a much bigger problem: they cannot explain the origin of their God.

They’ll live.

[TrueTomHarley]

Notwithstanding quirks as Michael Shermer’s forsaking his own ad hominem attack ban to indicate by voice intonation that those who oppose him are nuts, I overall appreciated very much his Skepticism 101: How to Think like a Scientist. I learned a lot as to how they think and I came to find I agreed with Shermer in many things. Alas, skepticism, when it becomes a movement, is like all new trends of the world. What might work if it was to try to integrate itself into the overall pattern rather than take over fails when in opts for the later goal. Overall, a measure of skepticism is a good thing. But it is also covered by verses such as ‘does not the palate test out words?’ ‘a fool believes every word, but the wise one considers his steps,’ and so forth.

When skepticism imagines itself the be-all and end-all, then what could be beneficial becomes a way to stifle discovery. It throws the baby out with the bathwater in its presumption to be THE answer to life. 

It reminds me of my friend Bud, who fixed many a clunker for me back in the day. An old-school mechanic, he was disdainful of the then newfangled electronic diagnosis methods. He told me of the younger guys of the shop stymied when such methods told them there was nothing wrong with a certain car. “Well,there must be something wrong with it,” he said, “It doesn’t run.”

Shermer’s lecture of evolution vs creationism was fascinating as it laid out four distinct battles (in the U.S) of the “war:” the Scopes trial of 1925, the later battle that Genesis be given equal time with evolution, the next battle to declare creation a science, and give it equal time on that basis, and finally the stage of “intelligent creation,” which makes no mention of religion at all (but whose proponents almost always believe in the God of Abraham, Shermer says, no doubt in violation of another one of his rules of thinking that one’s religion is relevant to the merits of whatever ideas he brings to the table). I agree with Shermer that “creation science” is not science, and said it here on JWI’s 607 thread:

“It’s not, and we shouldn’t argue that it is. That does not mean that it is not reasonable. It is eminently reasonable, and the fact that science has not endorsed it says more about the limitations of science than it does about creation. Furthermore, whatever Shermer may do in his private capacity, in his public capacity as Great Courses lecturer, he acknowledges that there are some places that science is not equipped to go, and therefore he passes no judgment on those places. What we should be arguing is not that our beliefs are scientific, but that science is a flawed system for measuring existence. In some areas it works pretty well; in others it comes up empty handed. When it attempts to encroach on what Shermer says it is not equipped to encroach, it becomes an overall obstacle to gaining insight and @Araunais right—it becomes a false god and those who follow it where it has no authority become it’s “clergy.”

Shermer’s contention that creation science is not science, upheld by the U.S Supreme Court in 1987, gives me renewed respect and some insight into the reasoning of the WTS, who at least since that time have not said that it is. Instead, we have become accustomed to reading such things as “the Bible is not a book of science, but it is in harmony with true science.” Materialists will choke at this phrasing, for they assume that ALL science is true, and if it is not there is no other way to correct the problem than a further advance of science. But the WT’s phrasing is in accord with the truth that not everything is examined physically; some things are examined spiritually, and when science encroaches on that field where it has but clumsy and inapplicable tools, it is apt to come up with something other than “true science.”

I’ve previously coined a category of materialists with the acronym SPCA—“science/philosophers/cheerleader/atheists.” These are not the same as scientists though there is overlap. Scientists just go about doing science. Michael Shermer acknowledges that many scientists believe in God, no doubt because they sense there are limitations to science. But SPCAs assume human science is all there is and ram it down everyone’s throat as the be-all and end-all.

It is also worth noting that the Bible never speaks of proving faith in a scientific way. Instead it speaks of “taste and see that Jehovah is good.” Can you really prove that something tastes good? Plainly it is subjective. It will appeal to some hearts and not others.

[Srecko Sostar]

17 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Michael Shermer acknowledges that many scientists believe in God, no doubt because they sense there are limitations to science.

Do you have information to what religions these scientists belongs? Or they are just independent believers?

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

they cannot explain the origin of their God.

You cannot even explain  the zillions of miracles in evolution that took place "per chance" - there is no evidence that explain any of them (only theories) and then you want us to explain a much greater being - BUT at least our miracles have a purpose and did not take place per chance.  There is also enough evidence of God's  existence by the intricate "information"  in every aspect of the universe.  DNA (an operating system giving instructions in sequence of every  event to take place), mathematics, different energies and frequencies - natural phenomena  that all operate by natural LAW etc.   So yes, start to explain these natural phenomena and look into that more thoroughly before you judge and take sides with human inadequacies.

[Arauna]

18 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

speculation of no practical significance.

No - you do not understand the ransom sacrifice.  If there was other perfect creatures living in another part of the universe than Jehovah would not have a need for a legal precedent here on earth to play out namely,:  that no other creature / government  can rule independent from Jehovah.

I foresee the govt. releasing so-called allien information (propaganda ) to get many to leave their faith........ be careful.

[Arauna]

23 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

The Spanish Flu virus didn't die out. It changed.

with human help

[TrueTomHarley]

11 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I foresee the govt. releasing so-called allien information (propaganda ) to get many to leave their faith........ be careful.

Not to worry. Elon Musk tried to recruit me for an alien search space expedition. “I’ve got preaching to do,” I told him. “I can’t blow my time on that nonsense.”

[Arauna]

On 1/11/2021 at 12:17 PM, 4Jah2me said:

So humans have always had a ruler over them

The moment Adam became obedient to Satan he became a slave of satan and his desires.  romans 6:  "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey,"

Those who by CHOICE put themselves under Jehovah could flee from satan's influence over the entire earth.  (satan offered the kings of earth to jesus , remember?)

When Jesus came to earth in flesh, he paid the ransom and his disciples are by choice under his authority. Since 1914 he started ruling amid his enemies on earth over his nation which is being collected from amongst humankind. but being part of this nation is also a personal choice - then you fall under protection of Jehovah.

[Arauna]

15 hours ago, AlanF said:

I've given you two morons an opportunity to redeem yourselves.

Have you set yourself up as a god and judge?  Do you ever realize what you say?   

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

Since 1914

Oh dear not that old record again. The whole Watchtower / GB / JW org seems to pivot on that one false belief of 1914.

In scripture we read at Matthew 28 :18 - 20    English Standard Version

¹⁸ And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰ teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” 

So there you have Jesus' words. 33C.E.  Not 1914. 

And when will your GB get baptism right ?  Once again the words of Jesus. "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," NOT in the name of JW Org. 

 

[Arauna]

16 hours ago, AlanF said:

she does of the Watchtower's history of using Young-Earth Creationism to 'defend' the Bible.

That is an empty taunt - lol.  I do believe the earth itself was created when the heavens were created and it is very old - that is why one should be careful that animal fossils are not contaminated with rock that is much older.

The animals only appeared when the earth had cooled down and after god started preparing the earth for inhabitation such as proper light, balancing the gasses in the atmosphere, plants and water and then only humans...... These epochs only began when the earth was ready to prepare for habitation... so yes young earth means the earth was prepared much later than the universe appeared

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

‘a fool believes every word, but the wise one considers his steps,’

Yep very true. And JWs have been fools for over 100 years. Why ? Because they have believed every word of the Watchtower leaders.  Well they must have either believed or knowingly followed lies, which is it ? 

Going door to door with lies from the leaders of the Watchtower.  Just acting as postmen or delivery agents, delivering a 'message'.  1914, 1970's, berore the end of the century, last hour of the last day, must be baptised JW, and many more failed messages. Yes like you say Tom, fools believe it all. But some of us are wise enough to 'wake up' and to consider our steps.