Conscience individual and collective

[Witness]

On 4/13/2021 at 2:31 PM, JW Insider said:

Of course, the answer was that proposing such a change could get you DF'd. But they also said that because many Witnesses think of the chronology as a "core" doctrine, as a foundation, that it's too big of a change. One brother always said that if you pull this out from under them, they don't have enough to fall back upon.

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes." Matt 7:24-29

This is why people leave the organization.  They see the leadership floundering at keeping their "house" built on shady, weak "foolish" teachings, stable.  But it will fall, as Jesus promises in his words here.  Why do people want to go down with it?  Why are they so foolish?

[xero]

I remember that the Israelites also didn't make a straight line out of Egypt or through the wilderness either.

Quite frankly sometimes I feel like I'm supposed to nod my head like I understand when some explanations sound like this to me:

 

[xero]

Free will is an issue for many. I see many people who were formally drug addicts swear off the drugs and get their lives together, but it seems that many who appear to have addictive personalities find some way to channel their obsessive leanings in other areas as well. Perhaps since these had problems controlling themselves in a certain area they wish all to forswear the thing that caused them some difficulty. Then you get rules. A rule is certainly easier to keep than a principle, which because of its ambiguity we can never quite be done with. There's always some uncertainty. It's like when you run a race, and at the end pitch your cookies and ten minutes later think you could have put out more. Could you? Maybe. But then you think "Well I did dry heave for five minutes at the finish, so I did put in a good effort."

In a congregation just seeing someone exercise a freedom you feel unable to exercise generates a certain anxiety. Now if it's food, and these happen to have no problems w/their weight, you might simply wish for a better metabolism or self-control or maybe you're a little jealous and console yourself with your arguably finer qualities than bro x or sis y.

But, what if these freedoms are freedoms of thought? Spitballing out loud? Perhaps this is no issue for some to spitball and yet maintain their faith and Christian integrity, but for others it could very well be too much to bear.

For some reason, ideas can be pernicious little worms and not all hosts can handle them well.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

I keep reading this competitive dribble from this ex Elder. She seems to like pitching people one against the other. All this rubbish about freedom and free will. All adults should have free will. And she seems to go on about food and a person's weight. I do wonder (that is thinking out loud ) if she has a weight problem herself.  Oh well, maybe she gets bored in her mum's cellar and just needs to type something, anything, just to show the world she is alive.  

 

[xero]

On 4/14/2021 at 8:23 PM, Pudgy said:

I remember back in the Old Testament how Jehovah tolerated a GREAT DEAL of error with his people .... until it reached a certain unrecoverable breaking point. Jehovah is our God, not because he needs to be worshiped, but that by doing so we all get on the same channel, and his favorite project (that we know about) prospers and does well.

If we had pet hamsters or gerbils, we would not cut off their heads because they constantly poop and pee in their enclosures.

(... insert many other profound related observations below: )

Consider how the bible shows so many actions taken, but not commanded by Jehovah on the part of his worshippers. One that comes to mind is the burial practices. The bible is silent as to any commands w/regard to burial and yet one would likely believe that these people had ideas about the body and resurrection which were in fact very, very wrong which neither Jehovah, not the prophets, nor Jesus himself, nor the 1st century congregation chose to address.

If we had a twitter or blogs or were present in the midst of the congregation of Gods people over the ages we'd certainly see and hear much which was wrong. None of this, of course meant these people weren't part of God's organized people.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, xero said:

Consider how the bible shows so many actions taken, but not commanded by Jehovah on the part of his worshippers. One that comes to mind is the burial practices. The bible is silent as to any commands w/regard to burial and yet one would likely believe that these people had ideas about the body and resurrection which were in fact very, very wrong which neither Jehovah, not the prophets, nor Jesus himself, nor the 1st century congregation chose to address.

If we had a twitter or blogs or were present in the midst of the congregation of Gods people over the ages we'd certainly see and hear much which was wrong. None of this, of course meant these people weren't part of God's organized people.

 

3 hours ago, xero said:

None of this, of course meant these people weren't part of God's organized people.

Hypothetical question: Do God’s people sin (make errors) more when they are disorganized or when they are organized?
The second hypothetical question: If all these various customs and dogmas and interpretations and religious traditions that had (was part of) various “assemblies of God” through the past, became questionable and rejected in WTJWorg today, what is the problem?

God, according to the idea presented by you and WTJWorg, has always had an "organization," but every real or imagined "organization" has never had a complete and accurate "truth." No “organization” has had “truth” in the past, and it does not exist today according to what is seen in any religion, including WTJWorg.
What can be concluded is that religious “truth” exists only for a while and that is while it is supported by religious leaders and believers. After a while these same or some other people change their “understanding of the truth” and (people) are always in a state of religious “error”.

It is fortunate for JW people that God repeatedly accepts every delusion that occurs in "his organization."

How long, how much longer, will it go like this?

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is fortunate for JW people that God repeatedly accepts every delusion that occurs in "his organization."

I am amazed at the many fingers of delusion in the organization.  The belief system remains intact in the majority of JW minds, no matter what “delusion” is presented, temporarily established, and then later rejected.  The main delusion, the inner core of the organization’s existence as reality and approved by God, is…as 2 Thess 2:11 says, “powerful”.

“Delusion” - Delusions are characterized by an unshakable belief in things that are not true, and often, there is a continued belief in the delusion despite contrary evidence. Not all delusions are the same.

A few types:

Erotomanic

In this type of delusion, individuals believe that a person—usually with a higher social standing—is in love with them. 

“The GB loves you very much!”

Grandiose

In grandiose delusions, individuals believe they have extraordinary talent, fame, wealth, or power despite the lack of evidence. An instance of this type of delusion would be someone who believes God gave them the power to save the universe  organization, and every day they complete certain tasks that will help the planet  organization continue on.

Persecutory

Individuals with persecutory delusions believe they are being spied on, drugged, followed, slandered, cheated on, or somehow mistreated. 

“Despicable apostates" – “their finally gonna be gone, all these despicable enemies that have just reproached Jehovah’s name, destroyed; never ever to live again”.

“It’s important for anyone experiencing delusions to seek professional help. This can be especially challenging, however, since people experiencing delusions often don't think of their beliefs as a problem because, by definition, the person experiencing delusions believes their experience to be fact.  Consequently, it is often concerned loved ones who must bring the issue to the attention of a healthcare professional.” https://www.verywellmind.com/definition-of-delusion-4580458#:~:text=Delusions are characterized by an,theoretically occur in real life.

 

Jer 14:14 - Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.”

“delusions”:  H457 - “a thing of nought” - good for nothing, by analogy vain or vanity; specifically an idol:—idol, no value, thing of nought.

The organization as an idol – “good for nothing”.  If it was good for something, the fingers of over 100 years of delusionary teachings, wouldn’t exist. 

I know, but what about the preaching work, spreading the "good news of the kingdom"?  It is never good news to lead people into an organization where it is historically proven, that delusions have existed and will continue to exist.  Truth can never be established on delusions!   

2 Thess 2:9-12 - "The coming of the lawless one…(that tramples down the anointed Temple of God – 2 Thess 2:3,4) will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, ¹⁰ and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth - the reality - and so be saved. ¹¹ For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie ¹² and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth – the reality -  but have delighted in wickedness."

“delusion” – G4108 - objectively, fraudulence; subjectively, a straying from orthodoxy or piety:—deceit, to deceive, delusion, error.

Deception, delusion, error.  Which one does the GB admit to?  They admit to the one that people who refuse to look at reality, excuse them for.  

 

 

 

[xero]

https://southpark.cc.com/video-clips/qc4zh7/south-park-abandon-all-hope

[xero]

The other thing that comes to mind is how opposers don't appear to consider the damage they are doing to others in their misguided zeal to root out what they believe to be falsehoods.

It never occurs to them that when they keep asking, knocking etc. it's open to them, not to others who aren't asking or knocking, yet these often insist that others listen to them and see things their way.

Even if their way was correct, it's not correct to attempt to shove it down someone else's throat. That certainly isn't seasoning with salt. It certainly isn't with a mild temper. It certainly isn't with deep respect.

This is why even if one is engaged in the door to door or telephone ministry that one be on guard to the manner we're going about it all. Never mind what others may or may not be doing, the question is what YOU are doing, not the organization, the elders or anyone else. What are YOU doing?

We all have the same judge and we ought to remember it's not us.

 

[xero]

More thinking aloud...

In Hebrews 13:7 it talks about listening to people, ostensibly ones who've taken it on themselves rightly or wrongly to be one's spiritual advisors and to contemplate the delta between their words/deeds and consequences to them personally over time and then imitate their faith in the word of God. Now later in Hebrews 13:17 it speaks of obedience and submission to those same ones, so I imagine then it would not be obedience to them, but to their faith application of God's word. In other words the biblical principle is what you agree to, but the corporate expression of the same in any given congregation might be different, yet we are not to forget that we are imitating faith in the bible and the principles on which it, that faith is, not the person or the practice.

No deification of entities and no abdication of responsibility.

On the other hand one can hardly imitate the faith of those one is not in constant community with, nor can one contemplate how their conduct is turning out.

One can hope that ones we do not see and do not commune with in a close family/community setting such as was common in the first century are observed by those in these respective congregations and this is not unlikely as we have all traveled and seen this uniformity, one can reasonably surmise that this is true.

It does argue for regular meetings and connections w/in congregations so we can watch each other's gardens of faith grow. W/o this we can't contemplate much.

One more reason for in-person stuff as much as possible.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, xero said:

The other thing that comes to mind is how opposers don't appear to consider the damage they are doing to others in their misguided zeal to root out what they believe to be falsehoods........

......Even if their way was correct, it's not correct to attempt to shove it down someone else's throat. That certainly isn't seasoning with salt. It certainly isn't with a mild temper. It certainly isn't with deep respect.

What is your suggestion about problem; How to explain to individual who is in delusion he/she is in error?

 

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, xero said:

In other words the biblical principle is what you agree to, but the corporate expression of the same in any given congregation might be different, yet we are not to forget that we are imitating faith in the bible and the principles on which it, that faith is, not the person or the practice.

I will use @Witness quote of A. Morris wording: “Despicable apostates" – “their finally gonna be gone, all these despicable enemies that have just reproached Jehovah’s name, destroyed; never ever to live again”.

What principle and what/whose faith you have to imitate, showed in A. Morris practice?