Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?

[Pudgy]

Religious topics should have a short opening, short ending, and have the two as close together as possible.

otherwise you get a minimum of 18 to 20 paragraphs of mindnumbing words, words, words, that you have heard 1 million times.

[Space Merchant]

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Did Chloe belong to 144,000? Did some other women in the first century and later belong to 144,000? If so, then they had the same type of calling as the male members. Same type of call. Same kind of service. The same amount of pay, so to speak.

Chloe or her household was possibly chosen, but never led the Church of Corinth.

Remember, House of Chloe may be the family itself.

The problem here is you tried to equate her to not only being a Church leader, but the role of a Sheperd when it is already known as to who holds such a role.

[Space Merchant]

1 minute ago, Pudgy said:

Religious topics should have a short opening, short ending, and have the two as close together as possible.

otherwise you get a minimum of 18 to 20 paragraphs of mindnumbing words, words, words, that you have heard 1 million times.

True, but it spiraled out of control when John the Baptist and Drones was interjected.

It went from gospel preaching, to 1975, Drones from a lying MSM source, to John the Baptist, and now The alleged Church Leader named Chloe.

At this point, it is fish flailing whereas even if the discussion is concluded or the latter loses, they continue even by means of interjection.

It gets repetitive mainly when the latter even confuses themselves with an Exegesis. This is why going forward, it would make sense to do refutation threads.

[Pudgy]

……. speaking of women as shepherds …..

If memory serves, Little Bo Peep was a shepherd. The sheep would wag their tails behind them. They could’ve wagged them in front,  but they would have to walk backwards.

 

[Space Merchant]

26 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

……. speaking of women as shepherds …..

Concerning women, the term associated with them is Shepherdess, but this term or anything pertaining to it is never in the Old or New Testament, even in regards to Women who are Chosen. 

As for Shepherds, In the Bible, we know that such persons tends to the flock of which is under their care (Genesis 30:35, 36; Matthew 25:32). The known shepherds on earth was Abel, Adam's Son whereas Cain, Adam's Son/Abel's brother cultivated the land (Genesis 4:2). Furthermore, in the Bible they are equated to monarchical leaders. Other known Shepherds besides God and his Christ of whom are primary were Abraham, Jacob, The 12 Tribes, Moses, King David, Prophet Amos, etc.

Family Householder heads (Man of the House) are also Shepherds, so to speak in regards to God's Order, hence The Head of Every Man Is the Christ, The head of Christ is God.

 

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

But as for God's Order, concerning the roles of which Apostle Paul (Prophet Inspired) stated, Women are primarily Ministers (Extremely evident in the New Greek Text), as shown in said example, but never as pastors, holding Religious Office. In that debate, both you and Witness supported the Methodist idea (The Unisex Teaching/Practice of which was pushed and used by Mainstream Christendom), of which seems to be coming from Pearl.

Just so you know up front, I don't read all that you write, but certain things pop out such as the above.  

Two people can look at the same scene with two different perspectives.  Jesus’ perspective was heavenly, spiritual, inspired.  He was preparing a people to also be heavenly, spiritual, and inspired. The Pharisees rejected this spiritual perspective, and instead held onto and loved their corrupted element of rule over others.   The term “religious office” is elementary, based on today’s works in the world of men.  What was once the concept of seeing “religion” in the spiritual realm with blessings reaching humans on the created earth, has been corrupted to “fit” the desires of men, who assign each other with created label to hold created “offices”. 

These have nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit. Men, like elders not anointed have robbed the concept of Christ’s gifts given to his spiritual anointed body, and changed them to fit their earthly needs, to fit themselves, and an organization.  (Eph 4:4-16)   They are applying what they chose from the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, to help run their debased organization. “The whole world lies in the power of the wicked one”, but men use this power to create a demanding “religion” of authority over others.  The apostles did not teach “organization” according to the elementary concepts of men. They were moved by the Holy Spirit to teach and to be guided by it, but never to manipulate their spiritual understanding, by lording it over others.  If there were leaders, they were leaders in spiritual knowledge.  Anyone who desires to know the truth, would value another’s truthful knowledge. 

“Rulership” under Jesus Christ is unfathomable in this world of hate and desire to control others. This ruler is the enemy of Christ, so why would Christ condone established religion in the rulers’ realm? (John 8:36)  His “rule” is based on love.  There would be no room for abuse, lies, failed doctrine, victims suffering at the hands of evil rulers, or the concept that religion must be built with money and riches of all sorts. (Matt 19:21)

What we see developed by men and their preferable religious beliefs, is called centralized religious authority.  Jesus dissolved the earthly, and set up the spiritual. (John 2:19-22)  But men have either rejected it, or chose what they like from his teachings, to create their elemental concept of centralized religion.

I meet with anointed and those not anointed. We understand that love is not regulated by men, and that there is no power over us except that of the Father and Jesus Christ.  We treat each other equally, men and women together.   But we also realize that among us are those who have been blessed with spiritual insight, those who have received valuable knowledge through the inspiration of Holy Spirit.  And more than one, happen to be women.  We listen to their understanding; yet, we listen also to each other, learning from our individual experiences, and all grow together in spirit.  We take note of the anointed gifts Jesus has given certain individuals, but we do not kowtow to the person, simply because of the gift.   

For a man who does not claim to be joined to one established, concrete religion, but uses the term “religious office”, tells me you are under the influence of the world of established religion.  Somehow, you have decided you are a Preacher by perhaps your own labeling; or, did others give you that label?  But how could they, if you are not part of an earthly organized church?  Nonetheless, dear SM, your concept of religion under Jesus Christ, is not according to the spirit of God, but of the world.  The two, cannot be mixed.

Luke 22:24-27; John 4:21-24; 1 Cor 2:12; 1:26-31; Gal 4:3; Col 3:2;Phil 3:17-19

 

Did the apostles really rule over the earthly concept of organization?  Not according to Paul:

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. ⁷ But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. ⁸ None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. ⁹ But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
    nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

¹⁰ these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. ¹¹ For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. ¹² Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. ¹³ And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

¹⁴ The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. ¹⁵ The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. ¹⁶ “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.  1 Cor 2

If a woman is a teacher or an inspired prophet from God, who are you to judge prematurely, especially since your mind is on "earthly things"?  You will know them by their "fruits".  Matt 7:15-20

 

 

 

 

[Space Merchant]

@Witness A lot of what you said was already refuted in that thread cited, and like then and now, concerning the Methodist idea of which you seem to be defending, as with @Srecko Sostar and Pearl, it is indefensible when it is refuted with God's Word, the same thread in which the both of you attempted to convince me, and readers, that churches existed before the Christ was even born, or the notion of Corinth, which is entirely false. Likewise with the deliberate twisting of Paul's words.

For the record, Religious Office isn't a modern term as you claim, it derives from Sacred/Divine Office, which is associated with leadership among God's people; in the Hebrew Text, those who led God's people, the Israelites, and in the Greek text, concerning Christianity.

That being said, a Teaching of which you adopted, is accursed, and never originated with the early church. To defile God's Order is indeed a problem. It should be known to you of the reason and why Methodist went down the Unisex path after all, they are not too far from Catholicism.

 

Concerning the Unisex idea, this was addressed in the debate we had a while back:

  

On 8/11/2018 at 12:14 AM, Space Merchant said:

[Claim 4]: The Times have changed, the people have changed, and the church must change.

[The Response]: The thing is, you cannot change the church. It is one thing for the church to learn and adapt as well as apply as they progress, but the core functions of the church cannot be touched. As we speak, the mainstream is doing the opposite and a whole lot of things even to the point where levels of inappropriate behavior and clothing are allowed in the church. All and all, such ones are very open and accepting of religious leaders and pastors who are indeed women, the factor of the matter is such ones put into application of their view of the church rather than the Bible itself.

 

[Witness]

59 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

@Witness A lot of what you said was already refuted in that thread cited, and like then and now, concerning the Methodist idea of which you seem to be defending, as with @Srecko Sostar and Pearl, it is indefensible when it is refuted with God's Word

This is "refuted" according to your view of the scriptures, which is elementary, not spiritual.  Your word is not "law".

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

the same thread in which the both of you attempted to convince me, and readers, that churches existed before the Christ was even born

It sounds to me like you have either misunderstood, or twisted someone's words deliberately.   

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, a Teaching of which you adopted, is accursed, and never originated with the early church.

The teaching of Christ was accursed when he walked the earth.  Anyone who walks in his footsteps, any anointed chosen to serve only he and the Father, will also be considered by the majority of their people, as "accursed", which is being repeated in the organization where God's anointed are held "captive" to its lies. (Luke 4:24; Matt 24:24,25; Col 2:8)   To its leaders who are false teachers, Jesus' words aptly fit:

 “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.

25 “Woe to you who are full now, for you shall be hungry.

“Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep.

26 “Woe to you, when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets."  Luke 6:24-26

 

You never commented on how you became known or elected as a "Preacher".  

 

[Space Merchant]

46 minutes ago, Witness said:

This is "refuted" according to your view of the scriptures, which is elementary, not spiritual.  Your word is not "law".

I am a Biblical Unitarian, the Bible holds authority, not my own understanding. Nor do I have my own laws, I respect and defend God's Law, and granted God is a God of Order as the Bible says, I use the Bible to defend this about the Most High.

As for the thread, you were refuted, ample evidence.

46 minutes ago, Witness said:

It sounds to me like you have either misunderstood, or twisted someone's words deliberately.   

I didn't twist anything, both you and Srecko were shown in challenge concerning Prophetess Deborah. As stated whenever I cite or coin something, there is a reason for it.

Hence the response:

  

On 8/11/2018 at 12:14 AM, Space Merchant said:

[Claim 5]: Prophetess Deborah

Most people speak of Deborah’s leadership of authority and make this a claim of which women can lead the church.

 [The Response]: As addressed in the evidence above, Prophetess Deborah was a Judge of the Nation of Israel, not a church, of which we see many churches of them solely in the Greek New Testament. Another factor is the Temples of Old, usually sons and Fathers were the ones to be of Priesthood of such, an example would be Aaron, or perhaps Samuel.

In that same discussion, Srecko pushed the assertion of which you were shown to be in agreement with, in that same discussion I brought it up, but you allowed to slide because the misinformation proved to be beneficial to of which Pearl was promoting.

Moreover, you attempted to use Galatians 3:28 as well concerning God's Order when that is in regards to the Chosen, not out Religious Office is structure in the early Church.

So if you want to talk about twisting, I need only quote you and Srecko. And his case, he confused Deborah's position greatly.

46 minutes ago, Witness said:

The teaching of Christ was accursed when he walked the earth. 

This we know, as is the Unisex idea, although never originated in the 1st century, it developed when it came to Religious Ordination. Therefore things of that nature that isn't Core should not be added to the Church at all.

46 minutes ago, Witness said:

Anyone who walks in his footsteps, any anointed chosen to serve only he and the Father, will also be considered by the majority of their people, as "accursed", which is being repeated in the organization where God's anointed are held "captive" to its lies. (Luke 4:24; Matt 24:24,25; Col 2:8) 

The Religious office notion is beyond the Watchtower, I don't see why you have to interject them, despite that they understand this, and it is the same reason why some EXJWs challenge them to accept the Unisex idea or else, so much so they got a Left Wing media source to support them.

46 minutes ago, Witness said:

 To its leaders who are false teachers, Jesus' words aptly fit:

Then why defend the Unisex idea concerning Religious Office? Isn't Pearl in the wrong here or is this a cherry pick notion of a defense?

46 minutes ago, Witness said:

 “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.

25 “Woe to you who are full now, for you shall be hungry.

“Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep.

26 “Woe to you, when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets."  Luke 6:24-26

The verses are irrelevant to the idea you are defending.

46 minutes ago, Witness said:

You never commented on how you became known or elected as a "Preacher".  

Elected? That's quite obtuse. Trying to save safe will not help you evade the idea of which you are defending.

For someone Chosen by God, of all things, this is something you should have seen from very beginning of ideas that are not Core. Likewise with your New Age idea in that same debate.

 

That being said, know the difference, of whom you call Leaders or hold some kind of Office, the Bible says differently:

 

That being said, the case was closed in that thread, granted the notion of leadership and women came into play, I simply quote from the debate.

 

Below is what Pearl Doxsey shows allusion to concerning the debate on the topic:

The Independent (Left-Wing Media Source), a known contributor to the affiliates of the Wild Beast itself concerning Agenda

Quote

Jehovah’s Witnesses

“All of Jehovah’s Witnesses are preachers, or ministers — including several million women,” the official Jehovah’s Witnesses’ website says.

The webpage continues to say that women don’t participate in the leadership of the church, but have a “full share” in public ministry and “work hard to be an influence for good.”

Resistance against the status of women has begun to occur in different groups of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

An ex-member of the religion spoke out to Independent in 2018 telling them women in the church are viewed as “a complement for a man.” He also said the church believes women should be submissive to their husbands, letting the husband make all important decisions.

A JW support group created a website in 2019 for youth members to have a place they can turn to. The mission of this group is to help youths “cope until they are able to leave home.”

The articles on this website claim the Jehovah Witnesses’ magazine The Watchtower, is not “truth.” They post articles sharing different member’s experiences in the church to help those wishing to learn more about the religion and to discuss the issues people are facing.

JW support said the Jehovah Witnesses are a patriarchal society where women cannot hold positions of authority and are to view men as their head. It also says that Witness women cannot teach unless no men are available, and when they do they must wear head coverings to show “submission to the headship arrangement.”

Sidenote: The EXJW mentioned in this article not only lean towards the Unisex ideology, but Feminism ideology, of which can be picked up by other assertions he made, granted, the Feminism are the types, if male, to state this. Paragraphs blue were added by the Independent, for they are known to add things to put emphasis on the topic itself.

The Head coverings remark by the Independent is a jab at not only JWs, but those who understand the representation of a Head Covering.

[Witness]

23 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Moreover, you attempted to use Galatians 3:28 as well concerning God's Order when that is in regards to the Chosen, not out Religious Office is structure in the early Church.

Yes, Deborah was a judge over Israel.  The anointed, both male and female are the priesthood of “Israel”.  They are the “saints” that Paul spoke of here:

“Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?” 1 Cor 6:2

Now, there is no segregation between what “saints” will judge the world.  Are they men, or women, or both?  It is very apt that God chose Deborah as a judge, so that keen, spiritual individuals can realize that women play a significant role in God’s priesthood – “ministers” yes, but also as prophets and teachers and judges. (Eph 2:20-22)

So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, ³⁵ but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.”  Acts 20:34,35

Only men, have drawn the line on a woman’s role in God’s priesthood; so far as transforming them into men through Wt's pictorial of what "heaven" and the "144,000" will look like.  

Gal 3:28 (written by Paul) – “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

The anointed are the spiritual "religious office", if that term must be used.  They have already been designated to care for God's sheep.  The foundation of this temple in Christ began with anointed, and continued to grow by faithful anointed being added.    (1 Pet 2:5,9; Rev 5:9,10)

Men, like yourself, have fabricated a different "body", built with uninspired men; which also has aided the development of the Wt.   As I have said, all anointed are inspired at their anointing, for a purpose.  THEY are the chosen, to serve all believers in Christ, and teach them God's laws. in Christ. (Mal 2:7; Heb 8:10)   Men, have built their authoritative power by eliminating God's choice, not only in anointed men; but also in anointed women.  That is where the elder body has become the "man of lawlessness".  2 Thess 2:1-4

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Space Merchant]

21 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

It is strange that some people will agree that some prophecy in scripture can have more than one fulfillment. Some prophecies have a small fulfillment, and then many years later, a much bigger fulfillment.  

Can you elaborate? Concerning the ceasing of miraculous gifts, Apostle Paul was correct, granted he was of inspiration, there is no question he was in err about it being obsolete granted the purpose it served.

21 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

That is my reasoning behind the Acts scripture that I use. Yes indeed it was fulfilled in a small way at Pentecost 33, but that does not mean it will not be fulfilled in a much bigger way through the Anointed Remnant, before Armageddon. 

Pentecost 33AD was no small event, it was not only the birth of the Christian Church, but the New Covenant coming to pass, and from it, The Greatest Commission in Biblical history. As it eh Chosen being among them, many, those converted into the 5K and ongoing.

There will be a fulfillment, however, we cannot assume that gifts of old persist in our day and age, the debacle of the 4th century was caused because a man who assumed a vision, which begot an action.

21 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

The Apostle John was one of the Anointed / chosen ones, and the Anointed Remnant are also of the chosen ones.

He was, but he outlived the majority. Polycarp was likely among the chosen himself, like John, but the miraculous gifts of which John and the others had, he did not obtain. But like John, he was still a great proclaimer of the truth even in the past of increasing adversaries in his age.

This is why various Church Fathers spoke boldly about John and his students other than the Church, as is some in the 3rd century prior to the events of 325AD.

For in 324 AD, Constantine emerged as the victor in a battle. In that same year, he establish himself as the sole ruler of the Western Empire. As Constantine the Great, he recalled his vision on the night before the battle and remembered that he and his troops had seen a cross of light in the sky bearing the command in this sign, he will conquer.

Constantine was never a prophet as some claim, but he made Christianity legal, but it caused paganism and other problem sot enter the Church.

There was no question that some of the Chosen, picked by God were alive in this century, but like the others after John, had no such miraculous gifts, but it can be assured that they knew The Emperors vision to be a problem.

[Space Merchant]

@Witness Yet in the debate it was stated otherwise, she was no leader, she was both a Judge and a Prophetess.

I don't fabricate, granted I hold the Holy Book and Truth to the highest regard.

Concerning Galatians 3:28 you were corrected on this also,

Like I said, you've been refuted on such before, therefore the Unisex idea concerning Religious Office is indefensible.

 

Anyways there is no use bringing an old thread into this one.