Rebuttal: "Seeing" Jehovah@

[Moise Racette]

19 minutes ago, Witness said:

What I find an absolutely cunning move by the Watchtower, is the ability to convince the anointed that they can reside with the "Gentiles" and allow the elders to rule over THEM and judge THEM as worthy or not, before God. (1 Cor 6:2-3; Gal 1:10) That has never been a good or blessed situation by God.  It has always signified Israel's fall into sin, when they come under the domination of the "nations".  (Ezek 36:19-21)  And yet the organization and its false prophets under Satan's influence, has accomplished it. (Matt 24:24-25; Col 2:8; Rev 13:5-7,10; Rev 16:13-16) 

Interesting. Does this poster then condemn Christ, within the gentiles, and Jesus and the apostles having to deal with the Pharisees? 

How is God judging this poster worthy, by blaspheming?

19 minutes ago, Witness said:

I appreciate your exuberance in praising God. 

Therefore, your praise for this poster is more in line with paying homage to this person and Satan.

19 minutes ago, Witness said:

I appeal to all elders, all JWs and God's holy anointed "kings of the earth", to leave the organization, now.

What the poster should appeal to is, having to deny people like this poster and @AnnaNana and label them as false prophets seeking to corrupt readers with their distorted views.

[Witness]

6 minutes ago, Moise Racette said:

Does this poster then condemn Christ, within the gentiles, and Jesus and the apostles having to deal with the Pharisees? 

How is God judging this poster worthy, by blaspheming?

You're very good at spewing out words that make no correlation whatsoever to a comment.  I dare say, Jesus himself could come to you with truth, and you would deny it. 

Perhaps if you read the scriptures Allen, you can then see what I'm talking about; that is, if you earnestly want to understand what they are telling us.  I'm speaking of the priesthood and its necessary role that has never been  eliminated. It began as an active priesthood in the first century, it doesn't stop with the advent of the organization. That does not negate any individual from turning to Christ, praying to him, learning from him and receiving Holy Spirit to help him understand what the word of God is telling us in the last days.  But it is the priests, those whom Jesus sends, who truly are given that understanding as long as they remain in Christ and follow his guidance - not what false prophets tell them - that can help guide believers to more understanding. Mat 7:15-20; John 15:1-8,16

And if you don't recognize your leaders as false prophets by examining your historic teachings, then you truly are,  blind. 2 Cor 11:13-15

I'm sure you prefer to have the anointed remain silent in the organization, and kowtow to men, especially the women; to bow down in humility to elders who are appointed by men, not by God. Yet, your two new governing body members are anointed.  Now, how do you know if they are indeed, anointed?  How do you know that they're not mentally unstable?  How do you know, that it's not a facade that these men are anointed?  You see, God knows those who are His, and if that person is genuinely anointed, they know they are His as well. But they must stand up for truth, not listen to men who give them lie after lie about the necessity for them to honor and obey "Gentiles", men not anointed.  It is very sad, that if these two new GB members are truly anointed, then these "kings of the earth" have fallen for the harlot's wine.  Rev 17:1-2 

The elders are not the true shepherds of the congregations belonging to Christ, it is those who are part of his body, priests following the headship of their High Priest, Jesus, just as we saw with Christ's early chosen disciples. THEY are the shepherds, THEY are the princes under their great Prince Jesus Christ.  

So basically, you're condemnation against myself, against AnnaNana, and any other anointed one who may come here declaring the lies and sins of the Watchtower and its leaders, shows that you are part of the abomination, that  tramples down the holy Temple of God.  1 Cor 3:16-17

[Guest]

When Jesus was on earth, he was anointed. But it wasn't time to be king and priest yet.

 

We who are anointed to be kings and priests must also subject ourselves to the those who Jehovah permits to be in authority.

 

Jesus did not agree with or condone the blasphemous actions of the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees and scribes and Sadducees, the Roman governor, or the Herodian kings. But he said:

 

"Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.  Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than 12 legions of angels?  In that case, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must take place this way?”

 

And again:

 

"You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been granted to you from above."

 

The elders and the governing body and the local town mayor and the president of the country and the head of the United Nations all hold their present authority by God's permission. It does not mean that God approves of them. God does not approve of Satan, but Satan is permitted time to rule right now.

 

The current organization of Jehovah's Witnesses has a form of government. We must be "neutral" as regards doing an act of worship to any government that is not the Kingdom. The Kingdom has not yet come to take away these other governments. Just as we pay taxes to the local governments in harmony with scripture, so we pay appropriate honor to those men taking the lead in the organization. If they decide to have a meeting at 9 am, we don't show up at 3 pm and start a meeting. If they paint the building green, we don't rebel and repaint it blue.

 

But we do not do an act of worship to those men. If they demand we believe or parrot a belief that is contrary to what the Bible teaches, we cannot go along with such a thing, even though we may be "disfellowshipped" or "banned". It is the same as if they asked us to salute the flag or say "Heil Hitler" or something like that.

 

Jesus said they would bring us before governments and authorities, for a witness. He said we would be "expelled from the synagogues." It is not surprising that those claiming to be our own brothers would kick us out. They did the same thing to Jesus.

 

But we must keep our integrity, which includes following Christ in all things. He did not take control of the Kingdom while he was on earth in the flesh. And neither do we.

 

We must wait on Jehovah. When the angels come and gather us to the kingdom, that is the time to rule as kings and priests. Not now. Not before. Satan is trying to tempt us, just like he tried to tempt Jesus. "You can do it now." No. "Get behind me, Satan!"

 

Sometimes a woman has an abusive husband. She does her best to work with him, but he might beat her when she puts Jehovah first. But she endures and shows respect for the marriage vow. (Eventually Jehovah took out Nabal for Abigail's sake.) It's the same with the congregation right now. Some of the elders "beat" us figuratively when we obey Jehovah. Jesus will make an accounting with those elders. But in the meantime, we must show proper subjection to the arrangement permitted by God.

 

The governing body and the elders are not a "husband". They are supposed to be like older brothers. It is not wrong for us as a brother or a sister, whether anointed or not, to question or point out inconsistencies in what is taught by the elders or the governing body. It's not wrong for us to tell the truth about what the Bible teaches. It's a requirement for us to do these things, even though we are reproached and treated insolently. But it would be improper to set up a "kingdom" right now, before Christ comes. 

 

Jesus will let you know when it is time. He is Our Head. He is the Bridegroom. We will all 144,000 go together to be with him at the same time. We are not all together with him yet. (We are with him in that we follow him, but we are not yet altogether as the bride in the marriage.) We need to have endurance. We need to have patience. It is soon.

 

Jesus had to wait too. We must be patient.

 

"Be patient then, brothers, until the presence of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until the early rain and the late rain arrive.  You too exercise patience; make your hearts firm, because the presence of the Lord has drawn close."

 

The Kingdom is near. Jehovah will be praised. 

[Moise Racette]

1 hour ago, AnnaNana said:

We who are anointed to be kings and priests must also subject ourselves to the those who Jehovah permits to be in authority.

The poster cannot speak of being anointed with a blasphemous mouth. That was NOT the teachings of Christ and this poster is denigrating that teaching to suit the posters distorted views.

1 hour ago, AnnaNana said:

The governing body and the elders are not a "husband". They are supposed to be like older brothers. It is not wrong for us as a brother or a sister, whether anointed or not, to question or point out inconsistencies in what is taught by the elders or the governing body.

Who gave the poster "authority" to know if the governing body appointed by God are or are not anointed ones? True Christians receive different gifts from God's Holy Spirit. 

NIV Rom 12:6-8
6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. 

Once again, opposing any leadership is contrary to God's command, and since this poster is NOT anointed just like @Witness and her favorite pet Pearl Doxsey, then the opinion is frivolous.

1 hour ago, AnnaNana said:

Jesus will let you know when it is time. He is Our Head. He is the Bridegroom. We will all 144,000 go together to be with him at the same time. We are not all together with him yet. (We are with him in that we follow him, but we are not yet altogether as the bride in the marriage.) We need to have endurance. We need to have patience. It is soon.

This is a moot point, since the poster is NOT part of the 144,000. It is just an embellishment of the poster. That @Witness pays homage to as a person driven by men's understanding.

Now, if the poster wishes to know how I arrived at that conclusion, the poster just needs to read the poster's own post, actions and behavior. 

NIV Eph 5:14-20
14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:

"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you." 

15 Be very careful, then, how you live — not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

Something the posters own words don't do. 
 

 

[Moise Racette]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

You're very good at spewing out words that make no correlation whatsoever to a comment.  I dare say, Jesus himself could come to you with truth, and you would deny it. 

I could say the same thing about this poster.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Perhaps if you read the scriptures Allen, you can then see what I'm talking about; that is, if you earnestly want to understand what they are telling us.  I'm speaking of the priesthood and its necessary role that has never been  eliminated. It began as an active priesthood in the first century, it doesn't stop with the advent of the organization.

Perhaps it's the poster that should understand the royal preisthood and the spiritual preisthood that seems to have confused this poster for such a long time. 

No one is suggesting the advent stopped, since the Spritual Jew, anointed ones are still being gathered. When does that stop? That is the distortion you are conveying. 

I will ask you the same thing I asked, @AnnaNana. By whose authority do you profess to know who God holds as anointed? I can express who is NOT, by their actions, behavior. 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

So basically, you're condemnation against myself, against AnnaNana, and any other anointed one who may come here declaring the lies and sins of the Watchtower and its leaders, shows that you are part of the abomination, that  tramples down the holy Temple of God.  1 Cor 3:16-17

This would be incorrect. I am exposing distorted minds of apostates. This poster as well as @AnnaNana lacks the will to be "anointed" therefore, cannot be persecuted as such. The lies lie within these posters, not in the Watchtower. Therefore, the abomination this poster refers to is its own.

[Guest]

"He was oppressed and he let himself be afflicted, 

But he would not open his mouth.  

He was brought like a sheep to the slaughter, 

Like a ewe that is silent before its shearers, 

And he would not open his mouth."

 

"Beloved ones, do not be surprised about the fiery trials that you are experiencing, as though something strange were happening to you.  On the contrary, go on rejoicing over the extent to which you are sharers in the sufferings of the Christ, so that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during the revelation of his glory.  If you are being reproached for the name of Christ, you are happy, because the spirit of glory, yes, the spirit of God, is resting upon you."

 

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her brood of chicks under her wings! But you did not want it.  Look! Your house is abandoned to you. I tell you, you will by no means see me until you say: ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”"

 

I know who I am and where I am going. 

 

Jesus said, "My kingdom is no part of this world."

 

Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization will be cleansed when Jesus is enthroned as king. God's Word always comes true. We must be patient.

 

Opposers are going to oppose and ridiculers are going to heap reproach. There is nothing new under the sun. It is through God's strength that we can endure it with joy. "When I am weak, then I am powerful." 

 

Mr. Moise, it seems we must agree to disagree at present. Jehovah will show the truth of matters in time. I have nothing more to speak to you at present. 

 

Friend Witness, we must have strong faith in Jehovah's promises and be willing to endure corrupt authorities just as our Master endured. We do not need to follow any man or woman and their teachings, be it the governing body's made-up teachings or someone else with their own website. We follow the Christ. We obey the Word of God. In that Word, we are commanded to respect the superior authorities, which includes the present governing body and the elder bodies. However, we are also commanded to obey God as ruler rather than man when there is a conflict between the two. And we are commanded to believe and teach the truth from the Bible as revealed by the helper, the holy spirit.

 

Jehovah Will Prove To Be What He Will Prove To Be. You Will Have To Know That He Is Jehovah. If Jesus can resurrect dead Lazarus after four days when he had started to rot, don't you think Jesus can heal and refine this organization? "Nothing is impossible for God."

 

Take courage! Have faith in the Lord! Jehovah will be glorified, and His Name will be sanctified. His name is on His Witnesses, Jehovah's Witnesses. Jehovah will act for the sake of His Great Name. Praise Jehovah!

[Moise Racette]

With the above, post of, @AnnaNana. It appears the poster now claims to be Christ equal. Now the poster has gone too far and has blasphemed against God's Holy Spirit.

NIV Matt 12:30-32
 31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 
 

[Moise Racette]

This is your kind of anointed @Witness, you pay homage and tribute to? 

[Witness]

@AnnaNana, Jesus said  "Elijah"  comes in the last days to restore all things. Do you realize this?  He is not referring to an earthly organization that is restored.  He's referring to the living stones of his Temple, the kings he rules over.    They must be refined before he returns.  Matt 17:11; Mal chapter 3; Rom 8:19-22

The mountainlike organization will see the last of its days at Jesus' return.  Zech 4:6-10; 2 Thess 2:3,4,8; Rev 8:8

 

[Moise Racette]

16 minutes ago, Witness said:

Jesus said  "Elijah"  comes in the last days to restore all things. Do you realize this?  He is not referring to an earthly organization that is restored.  He's referring to the living stones of his Temple, the kings he rules over.    They must be refined before he returns.  Matt 17:11

Seriously! This is the interpretation this poster has of Matthew 17:11?

NIV Matt 17:11-13

11 Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."  13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist. 

When did John the Baptist return just like the son of man's second coming? 

What does God's heavenly kingdom have to do with Christ, organization on earth?

Is @Witness implying there will be no structured organization on earth after judgement day?
 

[Guest]

Jesus said that "Elijah" meant John the Baptist. There is no indication of another fulfillment of that verse for today. Revelation talks about the anointed witnesses as being like Elijah and Moses. But there is a difference in being like Elijah and like Moses versus fulfilling what Jesus spoke of at Matthew 17:11 and Malachi 3.

 

There have been many times the organization has tried to apply certain scriptures to individuals, like when they taught that Russell was Elijah or that Russell was "the faithful slave" of Matthew 24:45. We are wise not to read meaning into verses that the Bible does not clearly explain. The scriptures are their own interpreter. The holy spirit reveals the meaning by bringing other scriptures to light, not by adding layers that aren't there.

 

The "living stones" in Revelation are talking about the anointed once they are joined with Christ in heaven. We are not in heaven yet. The "temple" of the kingdom arrangement is not complete until the marriage of the Lamb takes place. The marriage of the Lamb is the moment the Kingdom rule with the 144,000 begins, the moment the anointed are all joined with Christ in heaven. It can't start before then. 

 

"However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual.  The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven.  Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly.  And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one. But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.  Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed,  in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.  For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality."

 

There were some in the first century who said the resurrection of the anointed had already taken place. 

 

"These men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are subverting the faith of some."

 

The resurrection of the anointed has not taken place yet. The anointed are not ruling as kings yet. The "temple" as described in Revelation is not in operation yet.

 

Since that temple is not in operation, then how could it be possible that anyone is trampling on it or sneakily working in it or anything like that? It's not possible.

 

It is possible for heirs of the kingdom to be reproached, maligned, shunned, and so on. Jesus foretold that that would happen. It's a given.

 

"Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.  He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.  Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time.  True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way.  Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence."

 

Thessalonians shows that the apostasy comes in the organization, yes, and that Jesus is revealing those lawless ones in the organization. However, it says they will not be completely done away with until the manifestation of his presence. His presence hasn't happened yet. He said every eye would see him. No one will have to say, "I wonder if Jesus is present?" Even the ones who persecute Jesus' followers will know in that day that Jesus is present because they will see him.

 

That hasn't happened yet.

 

All those trumpets in Revelation haven't happened yet. The trumpets, bowls, seals, they are all after Jesus receives the kingdom in heaven. "No one knows the day or hour." It didn't happen in 1914. When he receives the kingdom, then he begins that ride with the crown, and there will be figurative famine and a sword and death in the organization, because that is when Jesus will be making judgments. When Jesus receives the kingdom and begins ruling in the midst of his enemies, that is when the Devil will be cast out of heaven and the UN will attack religion. 

 

Those things haven't happened yet.

 

All the references in Daniel chapters 11 and 12 about the "holy ones" are talking about Jehovah's name people throughout history. They are called "holy ones" even though at times many individuals were very unfaithful. It was for Jehovah's name sake they were saved. The prophecies about the modern-day "holy ones" in Daniel fit the application of Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization, the times regarding WWI and WWII and up to now, they all fit. Michael is going to stand up for Jehovah's people. Jesus said the angels would clear out the weeds and then gather the wheat. Jesus didn't say the angels would burn the whole field down.

 

There is nothing wrong with the earth. It is the wicked inhabitants who will be evicted. It is the same with the organization. The basic set up of congregations with older brothers to comfort and organize, it's not a demonic setup. It will be refined. It's Jehovah's way of organizing a family. It's just the wicked individuals and wicked teachings, those seeds sown by the Devil, that will be removed.

 

Jesus said it's like leaven that fermented the whole lump, the wicked teachings permeating the organization. Jesus said it's like a mustard seed where later a bunch of birds hung out on the plant. (In Revelation, "every hated bird" hangs out in Babylon. There are wolves in sheeps clothing hanging out in the organization too, Jude and Peter and John and Paul and Jesus talked about them.)

 

Jesus said in Revelation to the congregations that some of us would be in congregations where it's like the "synagogue of Satan". Some of us would be "put in prison for 10 days". Some of us would be where there are false teachings and bad overseers. What did Jesus say? Did he say, "run away from the congregations!" No. He said, "Keep holding fast what you have until I come."

 

We must obey the Master.

 

Jesus is coming to fix things. He said, "“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me."

 

There are many troubling things going on in the congregation today. "Do not let your hearts be troubled." Jesus and Jehovah will fix it.

 

When Jesus arrives, he will make an accounting with those who were left in charge of the sheep. In the meantime, Jesus takes care of our needs. He has never left us. He is just like his Father. Our Father.

 

"Jehovah is my Shepherd. 

I will lack nothing. 

In grassy pastures he makes me lie down; 

He leads me to well-watered resting-places.  

He refreshes me. 

He leads me in the paths of righteousness for the sake of his name.

Though I walk in the valley of deep shadow, 

I fear no harm, 

For you are with me; 

Your rod and your staff reassure me.  

You prepare a table for me before my enemies. 

You refresh my head with oil; 

My cup is well-filled.  

Surely goodness and loyal love will pursue me all the days of my life, 

And I will dwell in the house of Jehovah for all my days."

 

Jehovah God is Our Shepherd. We can wait on him. Times can be tough and sometimes we have to go without either physically or emotionally, but we don't lack for the necessary things. Jehovah more than makes up for the deprivations. If He could keep Moses alive for 40 days and nights up on that mountain without food or water, he can keep us going while isolated from the congregation. He kept the Israelites alive 40 years in the wilderness. They were fine. We are too. Jehovah is glorified in this.

 

Praise Jehovah for His loyal love!

[Witness]

@AnnaNana"Jesus said that "Elijah" meant John the Baptist. There is no indication of another fulfillment of that verse for today."

When the disciples saw both Moses and Elijah with Jesus on the holy mountain, this was signifying to us that a prophet would indeed arrive again in the last days in the manner of both Moses and Elijah - to lead God's people out of  spiritual captivity to an idol, and to speak of the need for repentance and refinement, as both Elijah and John the Baptist did.  This signifies the call of the "two witnesses" of Revelation chapter 11:3 

Matt 17:10-12:

And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”

Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 

 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.”