Rebuttal: "Seeing" Jehovah@

[Guest]

The chapter in Revelation that is talking about doing a Moses/Elijah type work is chapter 11.

 

The context of chapter 11 is during the great tribulation, not now.

 

The 42 months is the time of the great tribulation. We are not in that time yet. 

 

A large part of Revelation, the seals, the trumpets, the bowls, is referring to the judgment on false religion, which does include judgment on any false religionists within Jehovah's organization. The execution of those judgments do not occur until after Jesus gets his crown and permission from Jehovah begin ruling as king. The three horsemen of sword, famine, death/plague are also described at Revelation 18:8:

 

"That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong."

 

Just as Joseph described Pharoah's dreams, the seven ears of grain and the seven cows, they were one dream, so the same with Revelation. The 7 trumpets, 7 seals, 7 bowls, all describing Jehovah's judgments on religion and government. Just like those plagues back in Egypt. The plagues of Revelation are describing how Jesus is going to take down false religion and then he destroys bad government.

 

Jesus always obeys his Father. Jehovah told Jesus to wait at his side until it is time to rule in the midst of his enemies. Jesus did not begin ruling in 1914. When Jehovah says it is time, then Jesus will begin his ride and you will see religion attacked because Jesus will have begun judging and will have cast out the Devil, the UN will attack, etc...

 

During the great tribulation, we will preach a message that is like what Elijah and Moses preached. It's always a good idea to imitate the example of faithful ones of old, so it's not bad to imitate them now, but the context shows that specific prophecy is not undergoing fulfillment until during the great tribulation.

 

There will be many during the great tribulation who will say "we will go with you people, for we heard that God is with you people" just like the great crowd of Egyptians that went out of Egypt with the Israelites. When false religion is destroyed during the great tribulation, there will be many people who still have faith in God who will join us in worshipping Jehovah. The organization of Jehovah's Witnesses are like "Israel" today - they are the contenders with God as a group who bear Jehovah's name and will be joined by a great crowd out of all nations to survive the great tribulation. These who join us will not be numbered, because the great tribulation is a time of strife. (Jehovah's Witnesses today are numbered.) The anointed are numbered 144,00 out of all Israel, in other words, 144,000 anointed out of all Jehovah's Witnesses. Israel can also refer to Jehovah's entire earthly organization of witnesses. It depends on the context.

 

For those scriptures to take place, Jehovah has to have a group of witnesses organized for the great crowd to go with. He does. The organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. He will refine them, casting out the wicked ones. He will save His organization for His name's sake.

 

Jehovah's Name Will Be Sanctified.

[Moise Racette]

6 hours ago, AnnaNana said:

There have been many times the organization has tried to apply certain scriptures to individuals, like when they taught that Russell was Elijah or that Russell was "the faithful slave" of Matthew 24:45. We are wise not to read meaning into verses that the Bible does not clearly explain. The scriptures are their own interpreter. The holy spirit reveals the meaning by bringing other scriptures to light, not by adding layers that aren't there.

Spoken like a true advocate of @Anna, @ComfortMyPeople, @JW Insider, @Thinking

4 hours ago, AnnaNana said:

Jesus always obeys his Father. Jehovah told Jesus to wait at his side until it is time to rule in the midst of his enemies. Jesus did not begin ruling in 1914. When Jehovah says it is time, then Jesus will begin his ride and you will see religion attacked because Jesus will have begun judging and will have cast out the Devil, the UN will attack, etc...

Once again. The poster is speaking in absolute, and World War 1 started in 1914 which is reality and not made up, unless this poster can show that event in history is fake, prove Jesus wasn't enthroned at the end of the gentile times? Don't just post ignorance, PROVE how Jesus wasn't enthroned in 1914 by the poster submitting facts.

[Guest]

I have not yet had the pleasure of being introduced to any of the individuals of whom you mention, so I cannot either adhere to or deny any of what they believe, as I do not know what they believe (if that is indeed what you mean by the use of the word "advocate").

 

If you mean "follower", then you are mistaken. I am not a follower of any imperfect individual. I am a follower of Christ.

 

According to the scripture, Jesus came to "advocate" for all mankind, so if we were to "advocate" for one another as far as defending what is true and right and holy for the sake of love, surely that is not a sin or a wrong. I have deep affection for all of the Lord's children and greet them all with the figurative "holy kiss"!

 

As regards evidence debunking 1914 and identifying when the Kingdom really comes and what that means, we have already had that discussion on various other topics posted in this forum, as you are well aware. But if you really want to review them...

 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/90402-no-one-knows-the-day-or-the-hour-1914-is-not-the-date/

 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/90401-2-thessalonians-2/?do=findComment&comment=177164

 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/90403-hidden-from-wiseintellectual-revealed-to-young-children/

 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/90389-a-fun-true-and-false-quiz/

 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/90392-a-fun-quiz-response-contd-from-other-post/

 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/90391-anointed-faithful-yet-disfellowshipped/

 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/90404-resurrection-of-the-anointed/

 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/90397-revelation-jehovahs-witnesses/

 

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/90406-seeing-jehovah/

To Jehovah be the glory and the honor forever and ever! Peace to all of the holy ones. 🥰

[Witness]

9 hours ago, AnnaNana said:

The chapter in Revelation that is talking about doing a Moses/Elijah type work is chapter 11.

You have totally ignored the scripture in Matthew 17 that speaks of a prophet to come in the manner of Elijah. Malachi chapter 3 also refers to this messenger that God sends to cleanse his priesthood/kings.  You have a lot of opinions with no scriptural backup.  If we feel we know truth, then we must prove it by God's word, yes?       

I'm very sorry that you don't recognize the spiritual Temple, and the jeopardy each anointed one who is part of it,  faces in the organization.  But instead, you put your hope and faith in an organization built by men, that you think God is going to cleanse. He cleanses hearts, not establishments that men build.  If that was the case, he would have allowed his Spirit to remain with the Pharisees.  He would not have removed His Spirit from the early temple. Matt 27:51  But it was destroyed, wasn't it?  Jesus told them, "your house is abandoned and desolate".  Matt 23:38

There has never been evidence of an organization in existence, that God's people were to give allegiance to.  We are to give exclusive devotion to the Father.  Exodus 20:5. You mentioned that we are to be submissive to those in the leadership role of the organization.  Yet you also say the governing body are false teachers, if I am right.  You say some of the elders are not good shepherds, if I'm right. Explain to me where in the scriptures we are to be submissive to a leadership that is corrosive.  That tears down the faith of an individual by teaching myths, made up stories about the meaning of "this generation". (2 Tim 4:3-4)  No.  Remember, the disciples of Christ left that arrangement behind.  The new arrangement is established on Christ.  He told us in John 4;19-24, that we will not look to any entity, any physical  establishment - a "mountain" - to worship the Father. So, why do you enforce the opposite?  Why do you look to the "mountain-like organization" as salvation? 

 

[Moise Racette]

1 hour ago, AnnaNana said:

I have not yet had the pleasure of being introduced to any of the individuals of whom you mention, so I cannot either adhere to or deny any of what they believe, as I do not know what they believe (if that is indeed what you mean by the use of the word "advocate").

The manner this poster makes references to in this poster's argument, get real! The poster is only fooling the poster. 😅

1 hour ago, AnnaNana said:

As regards evidence debunking 1914 and identifying when the Kingdom really comes and what that means, we have already had that discussion on various other topics posted in this forum, as you are well aware. But if you really want to review them...

The poster has posted many topics that prove nothing with facts. The poster has made an absolute assertion about 1914. PROVE that assertion wrong with either biblical or historical facts. Debunk the 1914 war for starters.

[Moise Racette]

20 minutes ago, Witness said:

You have totally ignored the scripture in Matthew 17 that speaks of a prophet to come in the manner of Elijah. Malachi chapter 3 also refers to this messenger that God sends to cleanse his priesthood/kings.  You have a lot of opinions with no scriptural backup.  If we feel we know truth, then we must prove it by God's word, yes?       

I'm glad to see you can identify a false prophet and apostate. It's clear this person lacks not only bible knowledge, but reason with historical facts. However, you can better understand Malachi 3 and Matthew 17 in a better interpretation, yourself.

Once again, what does John the Baptist have to do with the second coming of Christ?

You speak about the cornerstone, yet you refuse to hear the song of the Psalmist.

NIV Ps 102:25-28
25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 
26 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.  27 But you remain the same, and your years will never end.  28 The children of your servants will live in your presence; their descendants will be established before you." 
 

Is David referring to the removal of earthly governments sanctioned to do Satan's work? Does this nullify the descendants or prevent those descendants from having an established foundation by Chist on earth by God's heavenly rule?
 

[Witness]

@AnnaNana, you quoted 1 Corinthians 15:46 - "However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual."

Please consider these scriptures: John 2:19-22; Matt 16:18; 1 Pet 2:4-10;Eph 2:20-22; 1 Cor 3:16-17;  2 Cor 6:14-18

You said that Jesus has sent you to declare the sins being committed in the organization.  So you must believe that Jesus considers this earthly organization as his own house; one that requires treasures on earth in order to exist. (Matt 6:19-21,24) It's leaders beg for donations to keep it running.  Does that signify the blessing of Holy Spirit on it?

The house mentioned in the scriptures I gave you, is the spiritual temple of God that has replaced the early earthly temples. (1 Cor 15:46)  It is a spiritual house, which is built with treasures in heaven.  If Jesus has sent you, and tells you that the organization will be cleansed, is he not betraying the house he has built on his body?  

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:  and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:  and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.” Matt 7:24-27

The organization began building its "house" on shifting sand over 100 years ago.  Proof is in its discarded teachings that are not taught today. Jesus, is said to be guiding this house; and yet he is the rock - his teachings never vary, they are trustworthy, they are genuine truth.  We can't say that about the organization, can we.

 

[Guest]

Jehovah is Salvation.

 

Jesus subjected himself to the superior authorities because it was Jehovah's will for him.

 

We should follow Jesus.

 

Jehovah's name is on His organization. He will cleanse and refine that organization for his name's sake.

 

"My kingdom is no part of this world" means the kingdom is not the governing body or the elders either, because the governing body is currently part of this world. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. The governing body members are still flesh and blood. The kingdom is not ruling yet. Jesus said we would see him. Literally.

 

Jesus bore witness to the truth. So should we. The scriptures make it clear Jesus is coming to clean house, not to tear down the house.

 

Jehovah is glorified in this.

 

(The previously posted scriptures are sufficient evidence to prove these things. I have nothing further to say on the matter at present. If you want to reread those other posts, you will find plenty of scriptural evidence for these things. If you don't want to reread them, that's fine. Jesus will make all things apparent in his time.)

 

Jehovah is the True God.

 

"And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, “Come!” 

and let anyone hearing say, “Come!” 

and let anyone thirsting come; 

let anyone who wishes take life’s water free. 

 

“I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: 

If anyone makes an addition to these things, 

God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;  

and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, 

God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, 

things that are written about in this scroll. 

 

“The one who bears witness of these things says, 

‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’” “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” 

 

"May the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus be with the holy ones."

[Moise Racette]

24 minutes ago, Witness said:

You said that Jesus has sent you to declare the sins being committed in the organization.  So you must believe that Jesus considers this earthly organization as his own house; one that requires treasures on earth in order to exist. (Matt 6:19-21,24) It's leaders beg for donations to keep it running.  Does that signify the blessing of Holy Spirit on it?

From one false prophet to another. What a silly argument. Why was Judas made treasurer, if not to keep track of donations.

It must also be evident. @Witness nullifies the first century church. I wonder if Christ gives this poster authority to remove from scripture what is convenient.

[Moise Racette]

23 minutes ago, AnnaNana said:

(The previously posted scriptures are sufficient evidence to prove these things. I have nothing further to say on the matter at present. If you want to reread those other posts, you will find plenty of scriptural evidence for these things. If you don't want to reread them, that's fine. Jesus will make all things apparent in his time.)

Basicly, this poster has proven nothing and said nothing worthwhile to the reader. Apostate classic!!

[Guest]

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments."

 

"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you know that the inspired statement is from God: Every inspired statement that acknowledges Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God.  But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world. You originate with God, little children, and you have conquered them, because the one who is in union with you is greater than the one who is in union with the world.  They originate with the world; that is why they speak what originates with the world and the world listens to them.  We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error. Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and knows God.  Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love."

 

"“Obstinate men and uncircumcised in hearts and ears, you are always resisting the holy spirit; as your forefathers did, so you do.  Which one of the prophets did your forefathers not persecute? Yes, they killed those who announced in advance the coming of the righteous one, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, you who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.”

 

"Well, at hearing these things, they were infuriated in their hearts and began to grind their teeth at him.  But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand,  and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.”  

 

"At this they cried out at the top of their voices and put their hands over their ears and rushed at him all together.  After throwing him outside the city, they began stoning him. The witnesses laid down their outer garments at the feet of a young man called Saul. As they were stoning Stephen, he made this appeal: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then, kneeling down, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.”

 

"Jesus answered them: “I told you, and yet you do not believe. The works that I am doing in my Father’s name, these bear witness about me.  But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep.  My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.  I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.  What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one."

 

"So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple."

[Moise Racette]

Anyone can post nonsense:

Who was Satan? Where and why did he exist? And what was his interest in, and motives concerning humankind? In 1970 we were five years into the Age of Satan, and even his Church didn't seem to have a
clear answer. In the Satanic Bible, Anton LaVey addressed this question only briefly and functionally:
Satan represents opposition to all religions which serve to frustrate and condemn man for his natural instincts.3°
This left undescribed the personage himself, as was also the case with the Bible's introductory "Book of Satan", an Ayn-Randian diatribe of anarchistic selfishness, culminating in sarcastic mockery of Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount Beatitudes. 31

 

It still means nothing to a reader!