Disfellowshipping's Modern Origins

[Moise Racette]

4 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

@Moise, I know you are afflicted. I cannot agree with everything you say, but I do hope you can enjoy your coffee this morning.

I really enjoy rants in the morning, noon, and night. If I'm afflicted, what does that make you? But, didn't you say in another post, you don't want to talk to me anymore? I don't want to talk to you either, but I will keep challenging your provocative and hateful rhetoric. 

4 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

(@Witness is not able to defend herself on the forum at present.

Now, how did I know you two are affiliated? Even when both of you were lying.

4 hours ago, AudreyAnnaNana said:

She has been misled by a sect, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't love God, or that God doesn't love her, or that the ransom isn't enough for her. She is zealous and compassionate toward those hurt by the organization.

People cannot love what they hate, and hate what they love. That's not in the gospel. Therefore, whatever love she and you have for God is misguided and certainly not Christian. So, admire her more than admire God. You both seem to want to worship men rather than God.

I will no longer counter your post. I will however, express my opinion about the rants you post.

[John 12.24to28]

Rotten Fruitage of Disfellowshipping Proves It's Not From Jehovah

 

I. Effect on Individual Who Is Disfellowshipped

II. Effect on Elder Doing the Disfellowshipping

III. Effect on Existence of Wickedness in Congregation

IV. Effect on Congregation Members

V. Effect on People in the World

VI. Effect on Jehovah

 

I. Effect on Individual Who Is Disfellowshipped: They may or may not follow through on the direction to come back. Some are too crushed and never come back. Others are not repentant but don't want to leave family/friends so lie about "turning around" in order to come back. Thus the overall effect on many disfellowshipped individuals is to learn how to lie better and how to hide wrongdoing.

 

II. Effect on Elder Doing the Disfellowshipping: Some elders know that disfellowshipping is wrong either while or after they disfellowship someone. Those elders damage their conscience and their freedom of speech with Jehovah. Over time they become callused and open themselves up to sin in other areas of their life. Other elders enjoy the power trip of "executing" people and begin to manifest a superior attitude which also grieves Jehovah's holy spirit in their lives.

 

III. Effect on Existence of Wickedness in Congregation: The scriptures show that there would be wickedness in the congregation in the last days, implying "disfellowshipping" doesn't work. The following scriptural passages are talking about within the congregation:

 

"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal,  having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness,  betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God,  having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.  From among these arise men who slyly work their way into households and captivate weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires,  always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth."

 

"...certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ...these men too are indulging in dreams, defiling the flesh, despising authority, and speaking abusively of glorious ones..." (they speak abusively the glorious ones God and Christ by claiming to represent them while teaching false doctrines)...These are the rocks hidden below water at your love feasts while they feast with you, shepherds who feed themselves without fear."

 

In Revelation, Jesus describes false shepherds who act like "Jezebel" in that they put out a hit on holy ones. He also describes false shepherds who act like "Baalam" in that they only serve the flock for what they can get out of it (material gains, prominence). It is not disfellowshipping that removes them. It is Jesus when he comes.

 

Peter, John, and Jesus' words in the gospels also warned that false shepherds would be in the congregation. These "wolves in sheeps clothing" avoid getting disfellowshipped but continue to do disgusting conduct and hurt the flock. The disfellowshipping process does not keep these wicked ones out; wicked shepherds use the disfellowshipping process to protect their own interests by disfellowshipping any who might threaten their interests.

 

IV. Effect on Congregation Members: Congregation members learn to stop thinking and stop using their Bible trained conscience. They learn to ignore thinking ability when they follow the dictate to shun without knowing why they are shunning the person (they are unaware of what the disfellowshipped person did, they just obey the dictate to shun). They learn to callus their heart and ritualize hateful conduct (shunning). They grieve God's holy spirit on the congregation by repeated cooling of their love.

 

V. Effect on People in the World: Most people in the world think disfellowshipping is hateful and it doesn't draw them to the congregation or Jehovah. It pushes them away from Jehovah.

 

VI. Effect on Jehovah: Jehovah hates it. It makes him draw away from His people who practice it. It brings reproach on His holy name. At a certain point, He will not tolerate the disfellowshipping doctrine any more and He will allow the UN, as the instrument of His wrath, to take vengeance for all the reproach that Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization have heaped upon Jehovah God's holy name. Jehovah will sanctify His Holy Name, and then Jehovah's Witnesses will be cleansed of that reproach from the apostate disfellowshipping doctrine.

 

Praise Jehovah.

[Space Merchant]

On 3/15/2023 at 7:08 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

From Chapter 15 of the Didache "But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents."

 

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

The Didache, although totally separate from the Bible, whoever wrote it was aware of church practices and origins, etc. in order to note them, it is also the earliest documents noted in order to not only shed light on some of these operations, but also, shut down any case mainstream Christianity attempts to push, such as , The Trinity. We would also be pushed to believe, and actually accept non bible canons as a truth without question. Not a pretty sight in this alternate reality whereas, in this case, the Devil actually fades out any truth concerning God and his Christ successfully; like a bad ending to a movie/story whereas the villain wins over the hero.

On 3/15/2023 at 7:08 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

"Origin of Excommunication

The process of church discipline and exclusion from the Church is an ancient practice, dating back to the early days of Christianity. In 1 Corinthians 5:1-13, St. Paul famously instructs the Church in Corinth to remove a member who had committed a serious offense. In Matthew 18:15-17, Jesus outlines a process of church discipline that culminates with the exclusion of members who refuse to repent. This early excommunication is seen as a form of discipline and correction, meant to humble the offending members and lead them to repentance."

 

https://study.com/academy/lesson/excommunication-catholic-church-origin-offenses-examples.html

This actually goes further back, Matthew 16, also way back into the Old Testament itself.

For starters, Excommunication, or Expelling (or Disfellowshipping in this regard), in this case, is an ability to remove bad people from either a community or an organization, especially, the removal is to keep such persons away of to prevent an association of good and bad. This is the same politically, even in normal society today, i.e. an employer, and or company can cut ties with a bad person, a School can cut ties with an inappropriate/violent teacher and or student. Within religious communities, namely the Christian faith, this practice was entrusted to them.

The reason for this practice is for the Christian Congregation in the Church of God to maintain clean worship to the best of tier ability, especially, morally. Therefore, congregation, of Christians, young and old, must remain clean if they seek to represent The Most High, God Himself, as is, his chosen Christ/Messiah, Jesus, the latter is being cut off entirely, a task which is at times difficult to do due to how rampant the sins and imperfections of man is, even today.

Earlier on, God himself put such into practice, so to speak, with the first human couple, our first human mother and father, Adam and Eve, who were expelled from the Garden of Eden, as seen in Genesis 3:19, 23 and 24, not too long after that, Cain himself was banished, Genesis 4:11, 14 and 16.

Korah, his household, as is followers of his, Abiram and Dathan, were expelled (permanently) due to their rebellion against God's chosen one at the time, Moses, continuing with Moses, you have a relative of his, Miriam, who was stricken with not too pleasing illness, leprosy, and expelled from the rest of the Israelites, and was essentially kept away for 7 days. Her reentry into the fold was due to Moses pleading for her. Such can be found in Numbers 12 and 16, including the references.

As mentioned before to others on here, although this was in practice, it was a far tougher time under the Old Covenant compared to the new one, granted, in the Old Law, any serious violations regarding ANY of God’s law given through Moses a person could be removed, in notable cases, put to death, (Leviticus 7:27, Numbers 15:30, 31). I am sure everyone here already has an idea of what results in the consequence.

Going back to the New Testament, the practice continued on under the New Covenant (although this time we had Jesus instead of Moses), for instance, in 1 Corinthians 10:8 (ref. 1 Cor. 5:5, 11, 13), a great crowd of people were, in this case, excommunicated, removed from the Christian community all due to a practice of willful sexual immorality, clearly not even making an attempt to change, thus 23k, were removed. So Paul here did the right thing with this carried over ability into the New Covenant, which entrusted those with the ability to bind and loosen in the Church. He, Paul, exercised this authority, and in doing so, kept the congregation of Christians clean before The Most High.

In addition to that, he exercised this Church action against other bad people, Hymenaeus and Alexander, (1 Timothy 1:19, 20). Now, Excommunication CAN be used incorrectly and or in the wrong way, hence the person named Diotrephes, 3 John 9, 10. There is also the The Sanhedrin who practices Expelling, but they abuse such power compared to the Christians in the 1st century.

Lastly, noted in both the Old and New Testament, even spiritual beings are in this boat too, it is very different with them however, for when Angels sin, they are cut off from God entirely, and cast into Tartarus, in a stasis like state, in total darkness, and kept there until the day of inevitable judgement arrives.

On 3/15/2023 at 7:08 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

Disfellowshipping was not part of the Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine during the early days of the Awake! magazine. ("Are You Excommunicated?" Awake 1946, pages 26-27)

 

https://archive.org/details/1947Awake/page/n25/mode/2up

Seems like they did lean on Excommunication, but not of the kind practiced, hence the Biblical example we already have, when Paul uses Excommunication vs when Diotrephes uses Excommunication. The article you linked seem to make note of the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses were shedding light on Protestants regarding Catholicism (it's practice of such), granted, the history between Catholics and Protestants is deep, or what some of them say today, they are in Protest of the Catholic Church, due to the fact that The Protestant Churches split from the Catholic Church centuries ago.

It should be noted that last paragraph in the article also states the following:

[The Church's right to excommunicate is based on her status as a spiritual society, whose members, governed by legitimate authority, seek one and the same end through suitable means. Members who, by their obstinate disobedience, reject the means of attaining this common end deserve to be removed from such a society.]

On 3/15/2023 at 7:08 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

Fred Franz had a history in religious studies that influenced his beliefs. Some of those religious studies involved the apostate "church fathers". When Fred Franz and the other translators worked on the New World Translation, they shaped New Testament texts to support those apostate beliefs on disfellowshipping rather than reflect the original Greek.

 

Not all Church Fathers were apostates, some of them actually is the reason why Anti-Trinitarianism survived today. If it wasn't for these actions, we'd all be believing the Trinity today as a Core Church Teaching. Even before Jehovah's Witnesses worked on their translation of the Bible, Excommunication, be it referred to as Expelling and or Disfellowshipping, was still a church disciplinary action, as is anything tied to it.

On 3/15/2023 at 7:08 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

Matthew 18:15-17 in the original language says "go to the congregation" meaning all the brothers, not just the "elders". There is a different word for "elders" and that's not the word used in Matthew 18. It specifically means the entire congregation. If the whole congregation knows about the serious sins of one member, then the individual congregation members can exercise their conscience to limit association with someone. Convening a judicial committee or a giving a label "disfellowshipped" is unnecessary and not scriptural.

Well that is true, but brother(s) (or brethren) generally means A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote [G Strong's 80 - ἀδελφός (adelphos)]. At the time, any man in the Church at the time, could be a regular Church member, a servant, elder, etc. Still seems to be the same case today.

It should be noted in Matthew 18, Jesus was talking to a specific group of brothers, in this case, the very people he entrusted such an ability to the church, they were not regular servants, or regular brothers, in the church compared to others, in fact, such men, were above that, they are, the Apostles of the Christ. The very outline of Chapter 18 is also on settling matters, and later, Jesus gave a Parable regarding an unforgiving slave.

That said, some can come to that conclusion, but remember, it was specific servants in the church who are capable of doing that, hence who Jesus was talking to when entrusting such ability.
 

On 3/15/2023 at 7:08 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

1 Corinthians 5 in context the Christians worshipped in homes. They would eat the Memorial meal together in the home. When it says "not even eating" it is including eating the Memorial emblems, the Lord's Evening Meal. The owner of the house should know better than to invite over for partaking of the emblems a brazen unrepentant fornicator who is sleeping with his dad's wife. That is the context of Paul's words. The homeowner should know better than to keep company with brazen unrepentant wrongdoers for worship in their home. Paul said they shouldn't let him in as long as he was still doing the bad sin. Once the man repented, he came back. There was no "silent treatment period" where he had to attend without talking or meet with a committee. Everybody knew when he cut off the relationship with his dad's wife.

True, however, the Church of Corinth was a physical place of worship. You are focusing on a few verses in the letter Paul wrote to the people of that Church, Corinth had a lot of Christians as is the other places Paul went to. This was also a place Paul was at for 18 months to preach and teach the gospel (Acts 18:11). All and all, his message was for the Christians of Corinth as a whole, be it at their homes, the Church itself, etc. Therefore, the Church, the people, cut ties with such a person religiously, especially if they continue to sin, a very different case if they seek repentance however.

Well that is the point, whenever someone is Excommunicated, it is known by the Church congregation, such as, when Paul called out the 23k immoral people, and or persons like Hymenaeus, Alexander, as well as the Diotrephes situation according to John.
 

On 3/15/2023 at 7:08 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

2 John 10 in original Greek doesn't say "don't say a greeting" it means "don't encourage someone to keep sinning."

You have to look at things from a Strong's usage as is the occurrences, even the roots.

"don't say a greeting" is, in this case, correct, due to G Strong's 3004 [λέγετε (legete)]
This root Greek word can be noted as:

 

• to speak/say of/out, to teach, affirm, maintain, greet/greeting, advise, exhort, command (direct), to call upon/by name

The secondary you mentioned, is not translated in that way, however, it can be rendered via the roots as this "give any kind of encouragement." If I remember correctly, I believe it is the YLT that rendered it as such, the YLT being the Young's Literal Translation of the Bible.

This verse, also ref. 3 John 10.

On 3/15/2023 at 7:08 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

Paul's letters to Timothy about "handing them over to Satan for discipline" also included the words "instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed. Perhaps God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him to do his will." In order to instruct with mildness, the wrongdoer would have to be talked to and communicated with, not completely ignored as if they were dead.

This is true, but remember, not everyone seeks repentance, some will continue to do bad, hence, 1 Corinthians 10:8. This is why Christians back then encourage people to try and deal with whatever sin and or bad practice they are dealing with, some will listen, some will not. The case just continues, even after the 1st century, onward, to present day, especially in a society that attest to the idea that good is bad, and bad is good.

Therefore, some who do not heed instruction, especially if they dwell in Apostasy, will, effectively, be ignored religiously, in some cases, the members of the church can deal with them how they see fit, knowing that not everyone seeks repentance, and not everyone seeks to shift from bad to good. As I say this often, the sin we inherited, results in such imperfections.

On 3/15/2023 at 7:08 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

(The word "Disfellowshipping" is not in the Bible.) Jesus came to save what was lost. God is Love. Praise Jah.

It may not be in the Bible in today's modern tongue, but it does have a root word for Excommunication, therefore, no violation of God's Word (Deut. 4:2). this is similar to, yet parallel to the Golden Rule in Matthew 7:12, although not in verse, the practice, and or Shema (as many tried to argue against this), in the Greek text.

That being said, God is indeed love, some people do seek repentance, even when church ties are cut, there is some actions to bring the person back, reinstate them, however, on the other side of the spectrum, there are people who fake repentance, and or do not change from their bad ways, thus continuing to do bad and bring unclean ideas and practices into a faith community.

Today's mainstream church accepts this, but clearly, anyone who adheres to God's Word, making a strict attempt also, knows that such a practice is bad, therefore, they can and will use Excommunication for people who refuse to drop bad habits, there will be people who use such incorrectly, but we should not rule out those that use it the right way.

I had a few sources on here regarding the different forms of Excommunication or Expelling, and which is the correct one, I'd post it here, but I have to go looking for it. Been a while since such a discussion came up.

The biggest danger however, is those who abuse repentance, which in turn, exploits Christians', that in of itself, is another rabbit hole. This makes Excommunication and or Reinstating someone, even in a church, difficult at times, something Paul, John, etc. did not have to deal with.
 

[John 12.24to28]

Hi, @Space Merchant, my brother! I hope you have been well.🙂

 

I am so glad you responded, because I know you have a ton of knowledge about the details of the early church history.

 

From what you've studied, doesn't it appear that in the history of Christianity, there have often been very sincere lovers of God who have taken part in "apostate" practices, not out of malice or desire to deceive, but just because they didn't know any better?

 

If "apostasy" is defined as "standing away from true worship" then in reality so many things done even by the faithful ones in the Old Testament were "apostasy".

 

Jesus told us that a marriage should be between one man and one woman, and yet Jacob/Israel had several wives, as did David, who was also a man desirable to Jehovah's heart.

 

At times men who were approved by Jehovah also permitted worship on the high places. There were real Christians who loved God and yet for years believed there was a Trinity (or who still believe it). In the early modern day history of Jehovah's Witnesses, they celebrated Christmas and used the cross, went to war. There are so many different forms of "apostasy". If we were to shun every person who calls themself a brother but is guilty of apostasy, then we wouldn't be talking to anybody in the congregation.

 

Until everyone is perfect, we will all be "apostasizing" in the sense that we are all falling short of perfect true worship. It is only the ransom that makes our worship acceptable, that righteousness from faith, that undeserved kindness. Abraham was declared righteous by faith, not by perfection. The Jews couldn't be perfect in the Law. It's not possible for imperfect people to follow the perfect law. That's why we have the ransom.

 

The early church fathers were doing the best they could, but they were imperfect, and just as Jesus and the apostles foretold, unholy traditions crept in right away. 

 

Yes, a business can fire an employee, yes, an organization can expel someone, but the congregation is to be a family. Just as the Mosaic Law allowed for divorce but later Jesus said it was a concession for their hardheartedness, so today. The whole excommunication/disfellowshipping is similar to what is done in a business, not a family. Jehovah hates a divorcing/disfellowshipping.

 

The Mosaic Law had expelling because the elders then also had to be judges and the secular law authorities. But that is not the way in the Christian congregation. The Mosaic Law also allowed the Israelites to kill Canaanites because the Israelites were Jehovah's instrument to clean out the land of wrongdoing. But that is not the way in the Christian congregation. Jesus is the one given authority to cast out wrongdoers completely. In the meantime, Christians are admonished to exercise their Bible trained conscience and apply the counsel to not hang out with wrongdoers. This application of the Bible counsel is not given to a committee. It is for the individual Christian.

 

Matthew chapter 18 was not directed just to the older men. In the context, we see that Jesus called a young child to him. If a young child was there, surely the mother was too. All Christians are to apply the counsel at Matthew 18, and the words "go to the congregation" do not mean "just tell a committee of elders".

 

Jehovah God directly evicted Adam and Eve. Jehovah executed Korah, Dathan, and Abiram directly. Jehovah directly gave Miraim leprosy. Jehovah has the right to do certain things that we don't. Adam and Eve didn't have the right to eat from that one fruit tree in the garden, but they did it anyway. There were repercussions. They reaped what they sowed. The modern-day disfellowshipping/excommunication is the same in that those taking the lead are taking from the tree that doesn't belong to them. They are reaping what they have sown, and soon they will also reap discipline directly from Jehovah.

 

As you said, Diotrephes tried to expel others. The whole current arrangement of disfellowshipping/excommunication is based on Diotrephes' way. 

 

Paul and John kept the congregation clean in the right way. They appealed to individual Christians to exercise their conscience and stop associating with those who were doing bad. They did not put in place any committees. Each Christian must use his own conscience.

 

John's words "don't say a greeting" must be taken in harmony with Jesus' actions. Jesus talked to sinners all the time. John's words are telling us not to go along with wrongdoing as if it's okay.

 

Jesus example teaches us. He teaches us. He is the way. If he wanted us to have committees, he would have told us. He didn't. He told us to love and to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees. The Bible is clear that the Pharisees were the ones who shunned. And the early church fathers were influenced by many of the Pharisaical traditions. It doesn't mean the church fathers were bad or not Christians. It just means they did what Paul and John and Peter and Jesus foretold would happen. 

 

Jesus is going to fix it. Won't it be so nice, @SpaceMerchant, when all of this divisions/doctrines are cleared away and the light shines so bright, we can just enjoy the peace of the entire family of faith!💖

[Moise Racette]

8 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Not all Church Fathers were apostates, some of them actually is the reason why Anti-Trinitarianism survived today. If it wasn't for these actions, we'd all be believing the Trinity today as a Core Church Teaching. Even before Jehovah's Witnesses worked on their translation of the Bible, Excommunication, be it referred to as Expelling and or Disfellowshipping, was still a church disciplinary action, as is anything tied to it.

I would say, there are good reasons to Di-flock someone, or unflock if you prefer. True, there is in church history when a person was excommunicated for questioning the church. Martin Luther comes to mind. However, as you stated, god's justice has been around since the inception of human time. 

None of that of course had anything to do with Brother Fred Franz, whose bible knowledge inspired me to be as knowledgeable or more as he was. A great person. Bro Franz dedicated himself to scripture, not what the church fathers might have done in the past. When he was invited to attend a college, he refused, but I didn't. 

So, of course, @AudreyAnnaNana is wrong in that respect.

Now, the Bible students had a different view. They didn't want to use the word "excommunicate" within their ranks because they thought the word was too harsh. Instead, the method they used was called "avoiding them" as a prerequisite to censorship. They thought it was kinder. But in the end, whatever methodology or word we use, it amounts to the same thing, and when it's applied, it means God's Justice and Judgment.

8 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Today's mainstream church accepts this, but clearly, anyone who adheres to God's Word, making a strict attempt also, knows that such a practice is bad, therefore, they can and will use Excommunication for people who refuse to drop bad habits, there will be people who use such incorrectly, but we should not rule out those that use it the right way.

I think the idea to use here is with the words "continued" "recurrence" etc. Those that refuse to repent by their words and actions are not subject to God's grace. After all, a true Christian serves God NOT man. A true Christian doesn't distort scripture, nor does a true Christian blaspheme against God just because they feel hurt by a biblical judgment.

As you stated, those people are not showing the will to change or are willing to change because of their conviction and false perception thereof.

[Space Merchant]

On 3/17/2023 at 1:23 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

I am so glad you responded, because I know you have a ton of knowledge about the details of the early church history.

From what you've studied, doesn't it appear that in the history of Christianity, there have often been very sincere lovers of God who have taken part in "apostate" practices, not out of malice or desire to deceive, but just because they didn't know any better?

The reason to know about the early church is because mainstream Christendom has twisted and tainted the history in order to maintain the New Christianity, and spread these notions to others directly or indirectly, which explains some of the New Age ideas coming out of some folks, even here, Defender, Srecko and Witness and a list of others, elsewhere, I deal with far worse.

The thing is, yes, what is said pertains to not just core, but the practices of the early church, mainly when dealing with those who are unrepentant concerning sin, Paul, as is the others, being entrusted with said ability to do such things (Matthew 16) are capable of using such for the very purpose of keeping the church congregation clean. 

On 3/17/2023 at 1:23 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

If "apostasy" is defined as "standing away from true worship" then in reality so many things done even by the faithful ones in the Old Testament were "apostasy".

But that is concerning those who do the opposite of what a servant of God should be doing. Apostates are far more dangerous in their complexity compared to someone random who was excommunicate for a sin, granted Apostates do not only seek to stand in the way, but in action, seek to destroy, especially today, by any means necessary, become unhinged, disgruntled, very deceptive, etc (this goes for even outside of Religion and Faith as a whole). This is why many Christians, even Jehovah's Witnesses, give warning, for Apostates, in example, can take something, a truth, and twist it, or make a lie become a truth, for example, one of the JW leaders, I believe his last name is Lett, said something about babies, his words was taken out of context to justify more opposition against the faith community, this same opposition seeks to use means of the state to eradicate said faith also.

Another example, take any Christian community who opposes Same-Sex marriage and the support for it, Apostates will use this situation to attack a Christian community, weaponizing such, even getting supporters of brazenhood to tag-along to cause some damage. The Greek term for the word also points to defecting true and clean worship, hence, Apostates will do anything and everything to destroy a community’s ability to worship and or demoralize, desensitize forms of worship and or the people of the church.

On 3/17/2023 at 1:23 PM, AudreyAnnaNana said:

Jesus told us that a marriage should be between one man and one woman, and yet Jacob/Israel had several wives, as did David, who was also a man desirable to Jehovah's heart.

That was because at the time, people like Israel and David were under the Old Law Covenant whereas most practices were in full use, mainly due to the fact of what God had told the first human couple, which followed with anyone after Adam and Eve, in addition of that, such has paved a path for the Tribe of Judah, hence leading the promised seed of which is spoken of as the coming Messiah by most, Jesus himself.

As for the other stuff, some of which has already been covered in my last response.

Quote

Matthew chapter 18 was not directed just to the older men. In the context, we see that Jesus called a young child to him. If a young child was there, surely the mother was too. All Christians are to apply the counsel at Matthew 18, and the words "go to the congregation" do not mean "just tell a committee of elders".  

You are referring to the verses prior to verse 15. 15 and onward is pretty clear on what I said in my last comment, even the references for each verses pertaining to the practice of Excommunication. Even the outline for the passage leans towards that. 

Quote

Jehovah God directly evicted Adam and Eve. 

Expelled, yes. 

Quote

Jehovah executed Korah, Dathan, and Abiram directly. 

Cut off, Yes. 

Quote

Jehovah directly gave Miraim leprosy. 

And we should not forget the reason as to why this is, hence her being cast out of the camp. 

Quote

Jehovah has the right to do certain things that we don't. 

He has given his people, who held office the ability to do such (Leviticus 7:27; Numbers 15:30, 31), this was instructed, given to the people, put into practice within the Old Law. 

Quote

Adam and Eve didn't have the right to eat from that one fruit tree in the garden, but they did it anyway. There were repercussions. They reaped what they sowed. The modern-day disfellowshipping/excommunication is the same in that those taking the lead are taking from the tree that doesn't belong to them. 

Not quite, because with the ability to Excommunicate, they can make an attempt to keep the church clean. Sure one can argue, someone can be strict about it, not to experienced with the ability itself, etc., hence my smoking example concerning church action I gave to Butler, Witness and Srecko, but at the same time, depending on who is using said ability, they try to do so to make sure the worship itself is unaffected by any issues. To remove the practice would ultimately make one in subjection on what church’s today suffer. 

For instance, if you lead the church, you would 100% kick out Gang-Stalkers, otherwise, keeping him there would result in someone committing sin out of wedlock, granted, a Gang-stalker’s goal is not only to make one deviate from the faith, but also, to conform the person to brazenhoods of the world via targeting someone’s son or daughter, in some cases, a martial spouse. Should such be continued to happen without any effort to stop it, there is no point in God being affiliate with a church who refuse to take action to clean itself, or have some shred of effort in doing so. 

Not only you would kick these people out, but you’d exercise the shunning command affiliated with Excommunication concerning them, by attitude, they’re already Apostates when they seek to cause targets to deviate from God and the Bible. 

Quote

As you said, Diotrephes tried to expel others. The whole current arrangement of disfellowshipping/excommunication is based on Diotrephes' way. 

It isn’t based on Diotrephes, granted, Paul himself was using the practice prior to John’s dealing with Diotrephes. It should be obvious via reading 1 Timothy and both letters to Corinth vs reading John’s 3rd letter. 

The notion here is Diotrephes was Excommunicating, using that church ability, incorrectly in a willful manner, which is evident because he is noted as a troublemaker, a problematic individual within the church. 

We know this because via reading what John said, it is clear that Diotrephes is very proud of himself, always wants to have the spotlight on him, he refuses to welcome any apostle so chances are he was rude to them, he spreads gossip about followers of Christ who serve God, isn’t hospitable and sheds ill example to others. The usage of Excommunicate was a means to shut down anyone who opposes him directly just via the context alone. 

Paul on the other hand, only excommunicates when it is justified, such as dealing with those who willfully adhere to brazen sexual immorality, as is the other two with a fractured faith that can cause problems within the church. So unlike Diotrephes, Paul excommunicates correctly. However, today, the task can be challenging. 

Quote

Paul and John kept the congregation clean in the right way. They appealed to individual Christians to exercise their conscience and stop associating with those who were doing bad. They did not put in place any committees. Each Christian must use his own conscience. 

You say this, but you said previously concerning Excommunication in its current form seem to tie into what Diotrephes has done. We already know how the apostles use the practice compared to those in the church's like Diotrephes, who abused it to ignorantly defend themselves personally.

Quote

John's words "don't say a greeting" must be taken in harmony with Jesus' actions. Jesus talked to sinners all the time. John's words are telling us not to go along with wrongdoing as if it's okay.  

Yes, but we cannot ignore the root and context concerning such. 

Quote

Jesus example teaches us. He teaches us. He is the way. If he wanted us to have committees, he would have told us. He didn't. He told us to love and to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees. The Bible is clear that the Pharisees were the ones who shunned. And the early church fathers were influenced by many of the Pharisaical traditions. It doesn't mean the church fathers were bad or not Christians. It just means they did what Paul and John and Peter and Jesus foretold would happen. 

Although the practice they follow also, but Excommunication still yields the cutting of religious ties, and opens the door for one to seek repentance. It was put into use by not only them, but Christians also, or any community of people at the time in terms of expelling someone.

Quote

Jesus is going to fix it. Won't it be so nice, @SpaceMerchant, when all of this divisions/doctrines are cleared away and the light shines so bright, we can just enjoy the peace of the entire family of faith!💖 

There is also wickedness everywhere at any time, no one is immune to those with bad intent entering a religious community, be it us, someone else, even JWs, the difficulty is when people of today’s society direct wicked people to institutions, often times, to exploit people to gain something and or the loss of the victim person or group. So God has given us the ability to discern, to deal with such folks, this goes for anyone who holds religious office also, to discern the situation to the best of their ability to prevent any unfavorable aftermath, and should it happen, how to recoup. 

At the end of the day, legitimate wickedness of all kinds will cease when God sends Jesus to fix it. This is something that Srecko, Witness, Butler, and the Trinitarians here like Defender, cannot understand.

That being said, Excommunication, although a practice, comes in 3 types, whereas only one of them, is the legitimate one – 

We shouldn’t excommunicate anyone, because it’s not merciful. 

We should excommunicate, because we want to purify the Church of the damned. 

We should excommunicate, because it’s merciful to sinners. 

 

 

[Space Merchant]

@Moise Racette Some people today either view Excommunication and all things pertaining to it as old and no longer required, and or simply change what it represents. Those who think it is no longer required, especially within Christendom, face far bigger problems compared to those who seek to change/water it down. I was already given examples of recent events regarding that a few days ago, and it seems today's society of what a church should be in terms of accepting all people, even their willful sins (which they still commit), which will result in more problems for others. The more congregants they draw in regardless, the bigger the problems become, such as the example that was shown by someone-

 

The whole Desmond thing and the Church that I spoke about long ago on here, actually came into fruition. Granted CSA is often talked here, while some have a difficult battle against issues in their community, you have these communities that willfully take them in, although they cannot touch a young one, they are permitted to do provocative things in order to entice influence on the youth.

The other example, I cannot even show, it isn't PG, to put it simply, because of accepting what is considered normal in today's society, those who should have been excommunicated, unfortunately later took up leadership, and mixed worship with extremely provocative behavior, so of course, it is accepted, in short, mixing Victoria's Secret with the Church in order to draw in members.

So the fact you have people seeking to take out those who are of or make the attempt to be like the early church in favor of a watered down Christianity of the mainstream, that is concerning. Makes you wonder why concerning Jehovah's Witnesses, some of the their opposition has not only been weaponizing CSA, but the LGTBQ community against them, thus rallying some of it's members in connection to them, such as, YouTuber Hannah Hart is a known LGBTQ advocate, or people such as actress Leah Remini. They, in turn, also cause others who are not supportive of the LGBTQ to be targets.

That being said, if people actually adhere to what the Bible says, as is, even as a Christian under the New Covenant, none of this stuff would be as rampant. There are other factors that play into this, but the obvious ones many of us can see taking place.

That Pastor, along with the people affiliated modeling church, should have all been Excommunicated a long time ago.

[John 12.24to28]

Hi, @Space Merchant! Thank you for sharing all that. I think a lot of the misunderstanding is just semantics. I totally agree with you that the Bible teaches those bad practices don't belong in the church: homosexuality, immorality, any of the bad behaviors listed in the Bible that God condemns. I think the misunderstanding comes when the rank and file congregation members fail to train their own consciences and rely on some kind of leader within the church to make the decision for them who to associate with and who to shun. 

 

What ends up happening is that because of human imperfection, wicked people slip through the cracks of the in-church-justice-system and continue to degrade the flock, while at the same time any who misuse their authority within the church mislabel and shun many true worshippers who then become cut off from the fold unnecessarily. When Paul and John and Peter and Jesus were talking about "disfellowshipping", what they were talking about was not yet ritualized into a clergy position with power to excommunicate. It was also different than during the Mosaic Law times. Just as Jehovah said "the law would be written on their hearts" rather than on stone, Jehovah pours out the holy spirit and our Bible trained consciences are authorized by God to make the distinction between who is good association and who is bad association. 

 

If the Christians were still meeting in homes instead of church buildings owned by corporation type establishments, the householder could decide to not let in a person who was a known unrepentant sinner (let's say a man who called themselves a brother in Christ but was an actively practicing homosexual or fornicator or something like that) and then the flock would not be brought down. While in theory the elders are like the "householders", in reality they are more like businessmen than family members. It's different than how Jesus set the congregation up. The institutionalized methods of labeling and shunning are not in harmony with what the Christ taught, as can be seen by their fruits. If disfellowshipping as commonly practiced worked, then there would be no need for the Christ to come refine the flock. 

 

But it is clear, as you said, that Jesus will come and fix everything. We are wise to avoid close association with anyone who calls themselves a brother but who continues in gross sin. That is the true "disfellowshipping". It doesn't need a committee to call the shots. Paul and John and Timothy didn't make committees to throw out wrongdoers in the first century. They just took the lead in exercising their power of reason and stopped associating with those bad "brothers" who were fornicating or teaching lies and didn't let them give talks in the homes during meetings for worship. If the brothers turned around, there was no need for a committee to "reinstate" them. Everybody would just know. It's the institutionalization part of disfellowshipping that isn't scriptural, not the essence of protecting pure worship. The protection of pure worship is always worth fighting for. That is what we're all about, spiritual battle and the exaltation of true worship. God is Love. Thank you, @Space Merchant, for your obvious love for God and the congregation and righteousness.

[John 12.24to28]

Just to illustrate - if the first century congregation was set up in the way that Jehovah's Witnesses today execute a "disfellowshipping", then it would go something like this: the apostle Paul and Timothy and the apostle John would meet in a back room with Diotrephes. If he didn't say he was sorry about slandering John, then the apostle John would make an announcement during the next meeting that Diotrephes was no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but the apostle John wouldn't say why. In the marketplace, if any of the Christian brothers walked by Diotrephes, they wouldn't say "hi" to him or if he fell down and hurt himself they wouldn't help him up.

 

That scenario doesn't fit with what Jesus taught, or the apostles. Here's why:

 

(1) John and Paul both said why those certain members of the congregation should not be allowed to give talks and/or should not be gathered with them to eat the emblems. They publicly said why. In fact, it's so public, we all have a copy of it in our homes. We know about the Corinthian man who was committing fornication with his father's wife. We know the details. We know about Alexander and Hymaneaus and Diotrephes. We know why Paul said to not ignore the wrongdoing of the Corinthian fornicator and we know why John said to not allow those other guys to have the run of the place. It's not a mystery, and it's not "gossip" to know why. It is in harmony with the second point here:

 

(2) In Matthew 18, Jesus said to tell the congregation. The whole congregation, not just the elders. That way the individuals in the congregation were protected with the knowledge of what that person was doing and could exercise that knowledge to make decisions accordingly.

 

(3) Jesus gave the illustration about helping the beat up man. Ignoring people is not what Jesus taught. It doesn't matter who they are. It's not wrong to say "hello". It's not wrong to help a person who has been labeled, whether they are a known sinner or not. It's not wrong to love your enemies, to help an enemy who is hurt, to feed your enemy if they are hungry. The Bible is full of time and again when Jehovah did this. Jehovah himself teaches us by His example: He makes the sun shine on the righteous and the wicked and the rain benefits the righteous and the wicked.

 

(4) "Not saying a greeting" in context and in harmony with the rest of the scriptures implies not well-wishing a person in their wicked deeds. In other words, it would be wrong to tell Diotrephes, "I hope that works out well for you, all your false teaching" or telling the Corinthian wrongdoer, "May God bless your fornication and brazen conduct" - that would be wrong. That's what John was talking about, not well-wishing a wrongdoer in their wrongdoing.

 

Here's a more likely way things worked out in the first-century: everybody in the congregation already knew that Diotrephes was being naughty and lying about John and other things. It was common knowledge. Since John was the eldest brother, he helped the friends to see it was not wise to allow Diotrephes to be in charge of anything during times for worship. The householder where the meeting was held decided not to let Diotrephes in the home anymore during meetings for worship. When they saw him in the marketplace, they would talk to him the same way they would talk to anyone who was not a brother, but if he started talking smack, they would walk away.

 

Same idea with the Corinthian fornicator. When he was sad at being treated this way, not allowed to hang out with other Christians for worship, then he cleaned up his marriage life and they immediately welcomed him back in for worship. There was no committee meeting. No shunning in the manner it is done today as described in the elder's book, with what amounts to almost a flowchart type mentality rather than Bible principles. In the first-century, they would just follow the simple yet clear admonition of the apostles which was based on what Christ taught.

[John 12.24to28]

"When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations.  There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire...For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you.  You should prove yourself blameless before Jehovah your God."

 

Disfellowshipping as currently practiced cuts off Jehovah's "children". It is throwing away living people and treating them as if they are dead. It separates families and friends. It is not Jehovah's way.

 

Everything belongs to Jehovah. Jehovah purchased everyone with the blood of His Son. Jehovah will allow Jesus to judge for Him. Jesus will decide who will be cut off and who will not be cut off.

 

Who dares to presumptuously take the place of Jesus as judge? No committee of men is authorized to judge for Jesus. No congregation member has the right to judge as unworthy of love and affection and attention somebody that Jesus died for. His blood is enough for them.

 

"There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire...For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah."

 

All the "children" belong to Jehovah, both the righteous and the wicked. It does not belong to any of us to presume to cut off one of Jehovah's children. No one in the Christian congregation was given authority to kill anyone, to treat anyone as if they are dead and never talk to them again even though they are still living.  

 

Jesus said: "“Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword" and also "If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword" and Jehovah said: "They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart."

 

Figuratively "burning up" living people, living breathing children of Jehovah - it's wrong.

 

"There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire...For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you.  

 

"You should prove yourself blameless before Jehovah your God."

 

The currently practiced doctrine of disfellowshipping is a God-dishonoring, detestable practice that does not belong in the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. It defiles God's holy name and heaps reproach on His holy name. Jesus rides for Jehovah's Name and Jesus will cleanse the organization of this detestable practice. Praise Jehovah.

[John 12.24to28]

"Cancel culture is a phenomenon in which those who are deemed to have acted or spoken in an unacceptable manner are ostracized, boycotted or shunned.[1][2][3][4] This shunning may extend to social or professional circles—whether on social media or in person—with most high-profile incidents involving celebrities.[5] Those subject to this ostracism are said to have been "cancelled".[6][7][a]

See also...Blacklisting...Online shaming, Shunning, Social exclusion" (From Wikipedia)

 

Interesting thing about disfellowshipping and shunning and cancel culture, Jesus himself was "cancelled" by the wicked men of his day, and yet Jesus was the one Jehovah chose to redeem mankind and inherit everything on the earth. The elders of his day "disfellowshipped" him. The Romans soldiers followed through with the execution. Many of God's name people cheered it on.

 

Just goes to show that imperfect humans are poor judges. 

 

"As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but chosen, precious to God, you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it says in Scripture: “Look! I am laying in Zion a chosen stone, a precious foundation cornerstone, and no one exercising faith in it will ever be disappointed.”

 

"It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “the stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone” and “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” They are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were appointed.  

 

"But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.  For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as foreigners and temporary residents to keep abstaining from fleshly desires, which wage war against you.  Maintain your conduct fine among the nations, so that when they accuse you of being wrongdoers, they may be eyewitnesses of your fine works and, as a result, glorify God in the day of his inspection."

 

144,000 of those "cancelled" by Satan and his associates will end up being kings in heaven who will help "cancel" all of God's enemies. Including the demons. What will happen to Satan and all cronies? Satan. Demons. Wicked people. "Cancelled." The ultimate "disfellowshipping."

 

"You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder."

 

"And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur."

 

Ultimately, it will be the Devil and his cronies who will be cancelled. (What a happy day!) The Real Disfellowshipping.

 

"Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."

 

"At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.  Look! I have given you the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing at all will harm you.  Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are made subject to you, but rejoice because your names have been written in the heavens.”  

 

"In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.  All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.”

 

Praise Jehovah.🥰

[John 12.24to28]

@EsADmf, are you related to Massimo Introvigne? You seem to have a similar writing style. This nice brother analyzed Massimo's works and I can see a resemblance in the kinds of ad hominem attacks and slander that Massimo uses and that you use. I do not agree with everything Jonas believes in, but I do agree with him on much of what he states in this video. Shunning is not loving. He is right. People who tell the truth are not "apostates" just for telling the truth. And people who call themselves "Jehovah's Witnesses" but who don't act like Jehovah's witnesses, well, they are actually the real apostates, aren't they.