Disfellowshipping's Modern Origins

[John 12.24to28]

"So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?”  In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted.  For whoever has, more will be given him, and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.  That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it.  And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see.  For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them."

 

When people didn't understand him, Jesus taught via illustrations. 

 

The following two videos are wonderful illustrations by "Kevin McFree" that helps to explain why disfellowshipping and other related manmade traditions are antichrist. (I do not agree with everything Kevin believes, but I do agree that his illustration is accurate and exposes the hypocrisy of shunning in the congregation.)

 

 

[John 12.24to28]

"If you see your brother’s bull or his sheep going astray, do not deliberately ignore it. You should without fail lead it back to your brother.  

 

"But if your brother does not live near you or you do not know him, you should bring the animal to your house, and it will remain with you until your brother searches for it. Then you should return it to him.  That is what you should do with his donkey, with his clothing, and with anything that your brother has lost and you have found. You must not ignore it. 

 

“If you see your brother’s donkey or his bull fall down on the road, you must not deliberately ignore it. You should without fail help him raise the animal up."

 

What is it that Jesus said?

 

"He said to them: “If you have one sheep and that sheep falls into a pit on the Sabbath, is there a man among you who will not grab hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep!"

 

Here is what Solomon said:

 

"The righteous one takes care of his domestic animals, 

But even the mercy of the wicked is cruel."

 

The "merciful" provision of disfellowshipping is not merciful at all. It is cruel. And it is wicked.

 

Jesus said those who keep the word of God are happy. God commanded us to love our brother. If it was a sin to ignore a sheep, how much more so it is a sin to ignore a man, made in God's image, redeemed by the precious blood of His Son!

 

"If a man gives his fellow man a donkey or a bull or a sheep or any domestic animal to keep and it dies or gets maimed or gets led away while nobody is looking,  there should be an oath made between them before Jehovah, that he did not lay his hand on the goods of his fellow man; and the owner must accept it. The other man is not to make compensation.  But if the animal has been stolen from him, he is to make compensation to its owner.  If it was torn by a wild animal, he is to bring it as evidence. He is not to make compensation for something torn by a wild animal. 

 

“But if anybody asks to borrow an animal from his fellow man and it gets maimed or it dies while its owner is not with it, the man who borrowed it must make compensation.  If its owner is with it, he is not to make compensation. If it was hired, the money paid for the hire is the compensation."

 

Many of the Lord's sheep have been neglected, torn, maimed by this system of things after being "disfellowshipped" and ignored by the shepherds in the organization. Jehovah is sending Jesus to make an accounting.

 

"This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel, who have been feeding themselves! Is it not the flock that the shepherds should feed?...My sheep were straying on all the mountains and on every high hill; my sheep were scattered over all the surface of the earth, with no one searching for them or seeking to find them...This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘I am against the shepherds, and I will demand an accounting of them for my sheep, and I will dismiss them from feeding my sheep, and the shepherds will no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouth, and they will no longer be food for them.’”

 

All of Jehovah's little sheep that have been "disfellowshipped" and are here and there, some mislabeled as apostates, some mislabeled as weak, some mislabeled as disobedient - Jehovah knows who are His sheep and where are His sheep - He will gather them back.

 

"“‘For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Here I am, and I myself will search for my sheep, and I will care for them.  I will care for my sheep like a shepherd who has found his scattered sheep and is feeding them. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered in the day of clouds and thick gloom."

 

The ransom is enough for the "disfellowshipped" sheep. Jehovah will tenderly care for them.

 

"“I myself will feed my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down,” declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.  “The lost one I will search for, the stray I will bring back, the injured I will bandage, and the weak I will strengthen; but the fat one and the strong one I will annihilate. I will feed that one with judgment.”

 

Jehovah will "undisfellowship" His scattered sheep and dismiss the bad shepherds (aka wolves) from the organization. Praise Jehovah.

[John 12.24to28]

"True wisdom cries aloud in the street. 

It keeps raising its voice in the public squares. 

At the corner of the busy streets it calls out. 

At the entrances of the city gates it says: 

 

"“How long will you inexperienced ones love inexperience? 

How long will you ridiculers take pleasure in ridicule? 

And how long will you foolish ones hate knowledge? 

Respond to my reproof. 

Then I will pour out my spirit for you; 

I will make my words known to you.  

Because I called out, but you kept refusing, 

I stretched out my hand, but no one was paying attention,  

You kept neglecting all my advice 

And rejecting my reproof,  

I also will laugh when disaster strikes you; 

I will mock when what you dread comes, 

When what you dread comes like a storm, 

And your disaster arrives like a storm wind, 

When distress and trouble come upon you.  

At that time they will keep calling me, but I will not answer; 

They will eagerly look for me, but they will not find me, 

Because they hated knowledge, 

And they did not choose to fear Jehovah.  

They refused my advice; 

They disrespected all my reproof.  

So they will bear the consequences of their way, 

And they will be glutted with their own counsel.  

For the waywardness of the inexperienced will kill them, 

And the complacency of fools will destroy them.  

But the one listening to me will dwell in security 

And be undisturbed by the dread of calamity.""

 

Jesus is the Wisdom of Jehovah. 

Disfellowshipping is antiJesus.

He is coming and he will show the organization what he thinks of the disfellowshipping doctrine.

He will sanctify Jehovah's Name when he throws the disfellowshipping doctrine in the dustbin, along with all those who unrepentantly cling to it.

 

Repent, any of you people who love to hate! Shunning Jesus' friends is the same as shunning Jesus. He is their redeemer. They belong to him. He purchased them with his blood. Have faith in the ransom. The Kingdom of the Heavens is Drawing Near. God is Love.

 

Praise Jehovah.

[Space Merchant]

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Hi, @Space Merchant! Thank you for sharing all that. I think a lot of the misunderstanding is just semantics. I totally agree with you that the Bible teaches those bad practices don't belong in the church: homosexuality, immorality, any of the bad behaviors listed in the Bible that God condemns. I think the misunderstanding comes when the rank and file congregation members fail to train their own consciences and rely on some kind of leader within the church to make the decision for them who to associate with and who to shun. 

@AudreyAnnaNana

It depends on the person and the community within the JW church, for instance, an African JW church can do far better than possibly an American one, although the faith is the same, culture and other aspects can fortify said community, for example, I mentioned an African JW church a while back, they do speak on subject matters far deeper in example to help guide the youth to a path that is good, in his case, when his church spoke of imperfections of man, they do speak of disorders, especially the one dealing with abuse. Sensitive topics should be talked about, even if you are of the faith or not, hence, such can act as somewhat of a shield to some people, even children, in most cases.

Expelling/Shunning in a cultural sense can differ because there are some sins, serious ones, that can spin a family into disbelief of what was done, for example,

A girl, age 22-23 at the time, was essentially saved by her mother, who is a JW. The girl in question nearly went into selling her body online after being persuaded, and her morals were nearly shot. This was the same case with her cousin, who tried to manipulate her into going into this form of immorality and to do it in secret, granted, her cousin, did not really care or took any Bible principles seriously. The girl spoke to her parents and guided her to not go down that path, and did speak with the cousin's parents, who did talk to their daughter, clearly the cousin did not care, nor did she listen, and only said she will keep God, Jehovah first, just to appease her parents. The girl's cousin was later expelled/shun by the church when it was found out not only she attempt to put inappropriate pictures of herself online (possibly to make money), but had sexual relations with someone at her college who thinks the behavior is okay, the only thing she avoided was a pregnancy, for if a child was born in such a situation, it will create more problems. She was evidently shunned by her church, and she still had interactions with her family, but the conversations were very awkward because the family were not only unhappy she was excommunicated, they were unhappy due to what she had done, and nearly got her own family member, the girl involved, in addition, they told her to cut communication with the boy who she had sexual relations with, in turn, the boy did not care and only saw what he had done as another win on his part, which speaks volume on today's society view on sex. About 2-3 years in, this person felt bad about her actions, and what could have been if she actually had a child, then she seek to repent, but when to the girl's family, granted, the girl's father was an elder in the JW church, for any contact she herself ignored from them before this shift in thinking. She was later reinstated, over time, people began talking to her, and she continued to mentally cope and fortify herself after the whole ordeal; for youth at times, do stupid things, often times, can be costly. It is unknown the current state of the cousin today, however, the girl who didn't end up like her cousin, thanked her mother to this day still, although her job prevents her from partaking in the church worship, she is given lessons and examples to research in her own time, and obviously, is given JW publications.

That was told my Sunrise Ezekiel, who is currently, a JW, and friends with the girl in question who told him this. If I remember correctly, he said this event unfolded in a Spainish JW church some years ago. Plus, it should be known that a situation like this, how Hispanic families would react.

That example resonates with me because of someone close to me who had a similar fate, however, the aftermath was not good. Although she and her family were not as religious, perhaps the father was, they lived off of good principle and morals, bad people got into my friend's end, and the rest made history and the news.

The decision to shun, the command itself is given by the Christ, as the example I gave about Gang-Stalkers, if a decision was made to not only expel, but to shun such a person, it will be put into practice, church ties will end, and any other ties with the person, who came for one's son and or daughter to mold them immorality, will be ignored entirely vs, per say, a guy who was expelled for smoking, but later gets help from any head or leader within the church.
 

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What ends up happening is that because of human imperfection, wicked people slip through the cracks of the in-church-justice-system and continue to degrade the flock, while at the same time any who misuse their authority within the church mislabel and shun many true worshippers who then become cut off from the fold unnecessarily.

It would depend on the person and the community's ability to discern and seek this person out in hopes of removing them, at times, even difficult because people can often change when they have some level of authority. So, someone can misuse any ability they have in order to protect themselves and or manipulate others to cover themselves, but such instances are not common, regardless of the church community.

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When Paul and John and Peter and Jesus were talking about "disfellowshipping", what they were talking about was not yet ritualized into a clergy position with power to excommunicate.

But they practiced it themselves. On the contrary, Paul, Peter, and John often communicate with those who held religious office in the churches at the time, in Paul's case, you had Titus, Silas, Timothy, even Clement. These people held religious office over others within the church so they, along with those who aid them in maintaining order in the church, will use any ability given to them to take action.

They were not talking about ritualization, and Jesus himself was very clear on keeping the church clean in the very ability he gave the Apostles and the Church.

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It was also different than during the Mosaic Law times. Just as Jehovah said "the law would be written on their hearts" rather than on stone, Jehovah pours out the holy spirit and our Bible trained consciences are authorized by God to make the distinction between who is good association and who is bad association.

Yes different, but the ability given to the church derives from what carried over into the New Covenant, in turn, the early Christian Church.

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If the Christians were still meeting in homes instead of church buildings owned by corporation type establishments, the householder could decide to not let in a person who was a known unrepentant sinner (let's say a man who called themselves a brother in Christ but was an actively practicing homosexual or fornicator or something like that) and then the flock would not be brought down.

Christians were meeting in both homes and churches, at the time any building and or the like was under some type of Establishment, mainly if everyone adheres to taxes within Asia Minor (Matthew 22:21), so the corporation or establishment remark is null. This also goes for anyone who isn't Christian around that time, i.e. people who follow and or go to support the Temple of Artemis (Diana).

They do this though, if someone is unrepentant, the person is never reinstated, mainly if there is no genuine interest to repent. even if the sinner claims to be of Christ and still sins, anyone who has the ability to keep him away from the flock will do it. To remove the ability to Excommunicate will only harm the church even more.

The only problem is to know if repentance is genuine or not, God and Christ can tell, but the common elder needs a high level of discernment in order to do so. even collectively.
 

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While in theory the elders are like the "householders", in reality they are more like businessmen than family members.

They're not businessmen. Elders/Pastors are, in a sense, Overseers. Such people are to be qualified in order to buildup Christians spiritually, as well as helping them. The only elders and pastors who are businessmen, who are for profit and not for spiritual growth are Prosperity Preachers, and or any Preacher who uses Old Law for ministry gain, such as using the Tithe, which is Levitical, when people should give out of free will, and or some form of currency to move the gospel forward instead of a mega house.

Elders/Pastors who are not of the mainstream, often times, if possible, give time, energy and resources to the people in their community when given the chance, as is support spiritually. Going back to Excommunication, those qualified are the only ones who try to mend people who are expelled and realize their sins.

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It's different than how Jesus set the congregation up. The institutionalized methods of labeling and shunning are not in harmony with what the Christ taught, as can be seen by their fruits. If disfellowshipping as commonly practiced worked, then there would be no need for the Christ to come refine the flock.

You say this, but it was Jesus himself who brought forth the binding and loosening of the church, which gave the abilities.

Excommunication has worked, we know this because of vile sins that would render core teachings entirely did not enter in some churches compared to most and or any vile notion is prevented. Although Jesus is not here yet, the task and command to maintain church purity within the community and family is what a Christian must do, mainly a family head. To refuse to do so, will only warrant judgment before the white throne as to why you didn't do what was entrusted.
 

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But it is clear, as you said, that Jesus will come and fix everything. We are wise to avoid close association with anyone who calls themselves a brother but who continues in gross sin.

Yes, but at the same time, you have to use any ability given to deal with those who seek to commit sin and can ultimately manipulate people, even a Christian, in order to do so. Waiting for Jesus is one thing, but trying to prevent and or minimize problems is something we as Christians must do, this is why I directly asked you about the Gang-stalker question, in that example you or anyone choosing to do nothing would put not only the daughter of someone at risk, but the community itself, because once the daughter is affected and goes into sin, the rest in the community of which you lead, in that example, will suffer, in some cases, you'll probably end up with a division situation like the Church of Corinth.

 

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That is the true "disfellowshipping". It doesn't need a committee to call the shots. Paul and John and Timothy didn't make committees to throw out wrongdoers in the first century.

The Apostles had those of religious office under them to deal with the church, so they, applying what Jesus gave them, did call the shots. This has not changed in the first century, nor will it change today. If you are wondering, Timothy was not the only head ot the church at the time. For example, Timothy, Paul, even Silas, were not at churches 24/7, they were moving, therfore, others, elders or overseers in places like Philippi, will take instruction, and or in Thessalonica. Paul himself went as far as to even mention these churches had qualfied brothers of the faith to operate within the church.

In 1 Timothy 3:8–13 (even with references), the division of labor within the church, to guide the flock is cited. Like the apostles, the elders’ primary role is one of preaching the Word of God, in addition to, serving the congregation in whatever practical needs may arise and or deal with any problems, they are chosen due to obtaining for themselves a high standing and a great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus, i.e. if Paul is in Corinth, clearly someone, like Clement (Php. 4:3), can deal with any situation Philippi and of course, they have others present to divide the labor work within the church.

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They just took the lead in exercising their power of reason and stopped associating with those bad "brothers" who were fornicating or teaching lies and didn't let them give talks in the homes during meetings for worship.

Which is clearly done today. It is clear that in the 1st century and today, ties with anyone who did something bad, church ties should be cut, so when they do the sins, even the one you mentioned, they are to be cut off, as is speaking lies when they know the community deals with core teachings. Although cut off, they are not barred entirely from listening to sermons and or the like.

The situation differs when someone who did sin, and seeks legitimate repentance, therefore, some communication would be open to pave a path for said person, hence Jesus' remark who entrusted Excommunication, to bind and to loosen.
 

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If the brothers turned around, there was no need for a committee to "reinstate" them. Everybody would just know.

There is no issue with reinstatement in this regard, be it by a legitimate elder who deals with a small church congregation or a number of elders in a bigger church congregation. There isn't much of a problem with that, mainly in practice.
 

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It's the institutionalization part of disfellowshipping that isn't scriptural, not the essence of protecting pure worship.

Expelling and reinstatement isn't institutionalization, hence Jesus remark in Matthew 16 on the given ability.
 

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The protection of pure worship is always worth fighting for. That is what we're all about, spiritual battle and the exaltation of true worship.

Yes, but it should not be ignored that the church has these abilities, clearly, if your church had Gang-Stalkers and or a willful sinner, you would work with anyone you divide the labor with to deal with these people, as is deal with those who do sin, and seek repentance, and reinstatement.

Speaking about Excommunication and Expelling, instances of this took place with recent events, even outside of the religious and faith community.

That being said, the only people who do not consider Excommunication of those who purposely ignored some passages in Matthew and or is an Anti-Pauline, sadly, these people exist, often times, they either, bend the knee to immoral and brazen conduct into their sermons (like in the examples given last comment) and or allow their community to be molded by said conduct and normalize it. It is among the biggest problems with mainstream churches today.

 

[Space Merchant]

@AudreyAnnaNana You've posted the video that alludes to Germany shooting itself in response to @EsADmf, I believe this is @Moise Racette. The uploader of the video is no different from what Pearl Stan such as Witness, has done using Marcus Vaughn as a sword, the same Marcus who lost to a strict Christian concerning Excommunication just days ago in a conversation.

That being said, it is not a surprise if someone calls for an investigation, this is what being on a warpath results in, this was indeed called out many times. Apostates often times have done things to people other than JWs to get them to remain in the background, even in some instances, use death threats (in order to get them off a platform), for some events that took place, even breaking into and disrupting a church service, time and time again, the biggest one was siding with the Kremlin for a ban. They even go after Excommunicated EXJWs who, recognize why they were Expelled reasons being because they do not follow what the Apostates were saying, i.e. Marcus' debate with a devoted Christian and an ExJW who is sick of dealing with some people in the Apostate community, this isn't the first time, nor is it the last time, these confrontations took place.

All this evidently built up causing people into making this stance. With the shooting, Apostates are saying this was due to Excommunication, however, the person in question disassociated himself with JWs, this was also concern by people who had connections to that JW church and or has known anyone there, even those who suffered. In addition to that, there was a concern about this person because of the letter sent about him which if taken seriously would have prevented the shooting.

Therefore, the shunning and or excommunication would have little to do with this, and people who weaponize the situation will only create more problems, with this shooting and the recent one in Nashville, which, regarding that one, any JW, even the ones here should be concerned about because there will be things heading their way due to the people who Apostates have rallied to not only go against JWs, but anything related to Bible truth itself.

Also, it should be noted it isn't a good idea to use this person, Goatlike Personality, as an example. 2017 isn't forgotten. Mainly if in the video, he is bias.

His issue was with this article, which has and will always be taken out of context because of people who are seeing the nature of some Apostates in opposition to the faith community - https://bitterwinter.org/apostates-3-disaffiliation-captivity-narratives/

The notion is that, Apostates are ex-members of religions or religious movements who become sworn enemies of the faith they have left. They have existed for centuries.

Which seems to be the argument of the article's author vs. someone who profits off of JW content.

That being said, it is impossible to make a devoted Christian, Anti-Pauline, especially if the Bible is taken seriously in terms of principles and practice.

[John 12.24to28]

Dear @Space Merchant, the elders I know here don't act like the way you describe at all. 

 

It would be nice if they did act that way. But that's not how they act.

 

They act like businessmen. They don't protect the sheep. They are the ones hurting the sheep, and then if you tell on them, they disfellowship you. And if you ask the next guy up, the CO, he won't help either. And if you write to Bethel, they won't help either. Even if you write to the governing body, they won't help you. They say "we're your brothers and we love you" but they don't really mean what you say. It's fake.

 

What you are saying sounds nice in theory, but the reality in the organization is very, very different. I am sure there must be some congregations and individuals that are nice and do what you said the elders do, and I'm glad for that sister who turned around that you talked about, but I know personally of several cases where the elders misused their disfellowshipping authority and I'm just in one little place. It doesn't just happen here. 

 

I agree with you that the church should be clean, but it is clear to me that when the Bible says there would be many antichrists and wolves in the congregation, it has taken place. Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization are no exception. Jesus will fix it. I do not condone the behavior of those radical ones who would resort to unchristian behavior to try to force a change, either by lobbying or mobbing or protesting. But I do not think it is a sin for people to expose wrong behaviors in the organization. Jehovah said we are to be His witnesses, and witnesses speak out the truth.

 

Jehovah Himself sent many prophets in the past to expose the wrong things going on in His organization on earth - Moses, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. Jesus exposed the Pharisees and scribes. He said we should keep following him. As long as there is corruption in the organization, Jesus will keep pouring out Jehovah's holy spirit to raise up witnesses of such things, for the sake of Jehovah's holy name.

 

I wish the elder arrangement was perfect, but Paul and John and Peter and Jude said it wouldn't be. I can see that if you were an elder locally, you would adhere to what is written in the Bible, and maybe none of these things that happened here perhaps would have happened, but not everyone is like you. I wish there were more elders like you. I am thankful that there are many integrity keepers on earth today. Jesus is looking for such ones. May Jehovah keep blessing you for your integrity, @SpaceMerchant.

[John 12.24to28]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The notion is that, Apostates are ex-members of religions or religious movements who become sworn enemies of the faith they have left. They have existed for centuries.

 

As far as your definition of actual apostasy goes, I hate apostasy. 

 

"Do I not hate those who hate you, O Jehovah, 

And loathe those who revolt against you?  

I have nothing but hatred for them; 

They have become real enemies to me."

 

But what I have seen and experienced first-hand in Jehovah's organization is that there are many apostates holding positions of authority in the organization, and it is not just a few here and there. There are those who don't even believe in Jehovah in many positions of authority, from elders to circuit overseers to Bethelites. 

 

David spoke of such things, people who claim to serve God but belie their claim via their actions:

 

"The foolish one says in his heart: “There is no Jehovah.” 

Their actions are corrupt, and their dealings are detestable; 

No one is doing good.  

But Jehovah looks down from heaven on the sons of men 

To see whether anyone has insight, whether anyone is seeking Jehovah.  

They have all turned aside; 

They are all alike corrupt.  

No one is doing good, 

Not even one. 

Do none of the wrongdoers understand? 

They devour my people as if they were eating bread. 

They do not call on Jehovah.

But they will be filled with great terror, 

For Jehovah is with the generation of the righteous.  

You wrongdoers try to frustrate the plans of the lowly one, 

But Jehovah is his refuge.  

O that Israel’s salvation may come from Zion! 

When Jehovah gathers back his captive people, 

Let Jacob be joyful, let Israel rejoice."

 

The Insight book on this says: "Those turning from the Source. The person who turns to transgression begins to discount God as a factor to be considered when making decisions and plans. (Job 34:27) Such a person allows his heart to blind him to the wrongness of his ways and he loses insight. (Ps 36:1-4) Even if claiming to worship God, he puts men’s precepts above God’s; he prefers them. (Isa 29:13, 14) He rationalizes and excuses his loose conduct as mere “sport” (Pr 10:23) and becomes perverted, brutish, stupid in his reasoning, to the extreme of assuming that the invisible God does not see or discern his wrongdoing, as though God’s powers of perception had failed. (Ps 94:4-10; Isa 29:15, 16; Jer 10:21) By his course and actions he says, in effect, “There is no Jehovah” (Ps 14:1-3) and leaves him ‘out of the picture.’ Not being guided by divine principles, he cannot judge matters correctly, see the issues clearly, evaluate the factors involved, and arrive at right decisions. —Pr 28:5."

 

Again, it is stated in Psalm 10 regarding those who claim to know God but hypocritically pursue the righteous one for harm:

 

"The wicked one arrogantly pursues the helpless one, 

But he will be caught in the schemes he devises.  

For the wicked one boasts about his selfish desires 

And blesses the greedy one;

He disrespects Jehovah.  

In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; 

All his thoughts are: “There is no God.”  

His ways keep prospering, 

But your judgments are beyond his understanding; 

He scoffs at all his adversaries. 

He says in his heart: “I will never be shaken; 

For generation after generation I will never see calamity.” 

His mouth is full of curses, lies, and threats; 

Under his tongue are trouble and injury.  

He waits in ambush near the settlements; 

From his hiding place he kills an innocent one. 

His eyes are watching for an unfortunate victim. 

He waits in his hiding place like a lion in its lair. 

He waits to seize the helpless one. 

He seizes the helpless one when he pulls his net shut. 

The victim is crushed and brought down; 

The unfortunate ones fall into his clutches.  

He says in his heart: “God has forgotten. 

He has turned away his face. 

He never notices."

 

It has been my experience that some of the smoothest talking, best speakers in the organization are the worst offenders. Some of the highest rated speakers in my circuit are also the biggest hypocrites, backstabbing men who are attempting to climb a corporate-type ladder in the organization and are willing to squash others as soon as they'd squash a bug. I have watched them permit adultery and alcohol abuse and domestic assault and love for violence and spiritism among the flock, even though there was enough evidence for them to "disfellowship" those guilty of such sins, while at the same time they shunned, either "soft-shunned" (denying "privileges" or friendship) or outright abused the disfellowshipping process with false testimony and no evidence in order to get rid of anyone who told the truth about what was really going on. I have seen how, when presented with the evidence, those at Bethel in the service department and the legal department and even the governing body themselves turned a blind eye to these wicked goings-ons and put a figurative "sword" in the hands of the wolf-like elders to support their twisting of the Bible and hurting of the sheep and continue to reproach Jehovah's name.

 

I have seen such hypocritical men label truth-tellers as "apostates" when in fact those hypocritical men are the actual apostates.

 

That is why, @SpaceMerchant, when I hear some of what outside "apostates" say, I do take it with a grain of salt and weigh it against what the Bible says. Many first-century Jews labeled true Christians as "apostates" but they weren't apostates. The Pharisees labeled Jesus an apostate, but he wasn't. 

 

Some of what the organization teaches is an apostasy from what Jesus said and did. Some of what those labeled "apostates" by the organization say is actually truth. 

 

What a big mess! Thankfully Jesus is coming to clarify matters and kick out all those fakers in the organization. He is also going to rain on the parade of actual apostates outside the organization. We don't have to do that part. But we do need to worship with spirit and truth, and the Bible is where we find that truth, not with committees of men who warp what is written in order to climb their corporate-style ladder.

 

I wish there were Real Elders here who would chase away the wicked wolves in the congregation. Someday there will be. Until then, Jesus has the angels of the congregations around to help give us what we need when we need it.

 

"Are they not all spirits for holy service, sent out to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?"

[John 12.24to28]

@Space Merchant, please, imagine a congregation with three elders who are just like @Moise Racette @EsADmf @Wally McNasty .

 

And then imagine the circuit overseer is also just like @Moise Racette.

 

And then imagine there are three other elders who are really tired and busy and just let the active MoiseRacettes do all the judicial stuff.

 

That's what it's like where I live.

 

That's what it's like in a lot of congregations. Jesus said there were congregations that were like "the synagogue of Satan". Not all the congregations are that way, but two out of seven are described that way in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

 

Now imagine some of those MoiseRacette type elders become Bethelites and Branch Overseers and are on the governing body.

 

Sheesh. 

 

Jesus said there would be an apostasy. In the organization of God. The end of the last days would be the worst time in the congregation because the weeds are so prevalent. Soon the angels will come to truly "disfellowship" all the weeds. Praise Jehovah!

[John 12.24to28]

1 hour ago, EsADmf said:

Jehovah doesn’t support apostates nor will he ever.

 ^CSB  1 Corinthians 6:9 Don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality, (1 Cor. 6:9 CSB)

 94 ἄδικος adikos {ad'-ee-kos}

Meaning:  1) descriptive of one who violates or has violated justice 1a) unjust 1b) unrighteous, sinful 1c) of one who deals fraudulently with others, deceitful

Origin:  from 1 (as a negative particle) and 1349; TDNT - 1:149,22; adj

 

Of course He doesn't support apostates. But He does allow them to do their thing for now. He does allow the apostates to do their wickedness in the congregation even. (There is a difference between allowing something and approving of it.)

 

There is a lovely illustration in one of our publications regarding disfellowshipping. In the painting, a shepherd has his sheep penned off, safe, in the background. In the foreground, the shepherd is isolating a sick sheep so it can heal and not infect the rest of the flock. The illustration is showing how to not spread gangrene.

 

The thing is, sheep are social animals. They need others to survive. One sheep does not do well alone. So the penned off sheep can still see and hear the other sheep just over the pen wall. It's not really alone. It can "baaa!" and hear the other sheep say "baaaa! baaaa!" And the shepherd is still nearby to ward off any wolves that might come by.

 

The reality in the congregations is that sometimes a wicked wolf posing as a shepherd takes a little lamb that is not sick and shoves it out into the woods. The wicked wolf does not put the lamb out because it is sick, he puts it out because he is sick. The wicked wolf shepherd is spiritually sick. And now because the current disfellowshipping doctrine is what it is, the faithful little lamb is on its own in the woods (or so it seems). Thankfully, Jesus does not leave any of his little ones alone, ever. (Just like Jehovah was with Joseph all those years after his brothers betrayed him and sold him to Egypt.) But it is not easy for these little ones. And because they are social creatures, they become easy prey to the wolves out in the world, and other social groups that are not clean.

 

When the other sheep in the fold ignore the faithful or weak little sheep who are kicked out, it is cruel and not Jehovah's way. That's not what was meant by those verses on keeping the congregation clean. That's not how Jesus would do it, shunning faithful ones. Anybody with common sense can see it's not Christ's way to ignore people.

 

If somebody wants to go off and do bad, then let them go somewhere else. They shouldn't do it in the congregation. The elders can tell the wrongdoers to stop and not give them speaking/teaching duties and not worship with them. But that's no reason to ignore people when you see them on the street or if they come to the Kingdom Hall and they're not doing anything wrong. That's just plain stupid to ignore them at the Kingdom Hall if they are not doing anything wrong. If they are making the effort to go to the hall and they're not doing anything wrong then people should acknowledge them. Jesus wouldn't ignore them if they were there. The elders do not have authority to label someone and make extra traditions that aren't in the Bible, saying only a committee can remove the label or that only the committee can know the details. They don't have authority from Jesus to do that and say everybody should ignore the person with not even any shred of evidence. The Pharisees are the ones who would ignore people like that. The Pharisee-types are the ones who make class distinctions, saying "this one is too poor for me to talk to" or "I only associate with the rich". Rich in prominence or poor in prominence, God is not partial. If He makes it rain and sun on both, so should we. Jesus was merciful.

 

Jesus is the fine shepherd. He will make clear what "disfellowshipping" really is when he comes.

[John 12.24to28]

47 minutes ago, EsADmf said:

So, elders don't have personal authority other than those that are given by God through the bible.

 

And yet they go beyond that authority every day in the congregations.

 

47 minutes ago, EsADmf said:

CSB  2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. (2 Thess. 2:10 CSB)

 

That verse in 2 Thessalonians in context is about the lawless ones who sits as a god in the temple of God (apostates active in God's organization in positions of authority, the wolves Jesus talked about who infiltrate the congregations) and about those who follow them who will perish because they don't love truth. 

 

48 minutes ago, EsADmf said:

ESV  Titus 3:10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, (Tit. 3:10 ESV)

 

The verse in Titus in context is: "But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile.  As for a man who promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition,  knowing that such a man has deviated from the way and is sinning and is self-condemned." It's not talking about a committee disfellowshipping people and then not talking to them. It's specific on how to deal with men teaching false doctrines at the congregation meetings for worship.

 

48 minutes ago, EsADmf said:

CSB  Romans 1:18 For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, (Rom. 1:18 CSB)

 

"...man’s anger does not bring about God’s righteousness."

[John 12.24to28]

49 minutes ago, EsADmf said:

There are differences now that haven't been discussed. There's a difference between "expulsion" excommunication, and disfellowship that can be clarified right now.

 

@EsADmf Is this what you are talking about? (And just a note that I do not agree with everything the publisher of this video does or believes in, but this particular clip shows the "different" forms of shunning in the organization and how what is publicly described by the organization doesn't match what actually happens...)

 

 

[John 12.24to28]

@EsADmf Here is a little bit more on that Canadian court case that shows the Watchtower lawyers under oath lying about how disfellowshipping is done in the organization...(again, I do not necessarily hold the same beliefs and viewpoints as the publisher of the video; but it does show the hypocrisy going on in the organization as regards this doctrine.) Jesus will come and fix it. He will cleanse Jehovah's organization for Jehovah's Name Sake.