Malawi and MCP Cards?

[Thinking]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I believe there must have existed a real document with similarities to this one on his actual passport application, and the signature matches that of JFR in other places. But I find it hard to believe that a document like this one would have contained such a blatant typo: So held me God.

I have seen some other 1922 U.S. passport applications and had not seen one with this typo. Also the OATH OF ALLEGIENCE is in a different font on some of the others I have seen.

I seen many years ago on another site which I think is redundant now….i was never sure what to make of it…..this oath must have had many brothers and sisters who travelled overseas compromise themselves.

[Thinking]

2 hours ago, George88 said:

Yet, none of the posts have explained why Malwian JWs didn't accept the Party card. It was not just the allegiance to a totalitarianism dictator, but its military service which would have been included in the political process of that party. 

By the way, trying to brush up on what an "oath of allegiance" means in the United States as compared to other nations.

This quote from Russell's thought about "allegiance" is clear.

“On the other hand, the Scriptural proposition is that while our citizenship is in heaven and we are aliens, strangers and foreigners in the world, with allegiance to the heavenly King, nevertheless, like all other foreigners, we are to be subject to the powers that be — subject to the laws of the country in which we may be living. But if obedience to the laws does not imply military service on the part of the foreigner, so obedience to the laws on the part of Bible Students does not imply military duty. Similarly with the oath of allegiance required by those who enter the Army — they are required to swear allegiance to the king and obedience to the officers of the king in all things. This oath is not required of aliens, foreigners, and is objected to by Bible Students, not because they are opposed to law and order or unwilling to be regulated by the government under which they live, but because they have already given allegiance to the higher power — the heavenly Lord. To them his words, his commands, etc., are paramount.” R5928:2,3

 

I love Russell but I don’t understand what he is saying here,.

 

[Pudgy]

The link I posted gives the WTB&TS policy.

Allegiance is a word derived from “All to the Liege”.

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, George88 said:

Does this mean that God chose Banda specifically to bring harm to JWs and non-JW Malawians?

I cannot say who chose whom. But I can say that the Bible contains accounts describing that God has chosen this or that people or nations to carry out his will and purpose. On the other hand, WTJWorg also interprets some biblical texts to say that God will use the UN or as they now call it the "coalition of nations" to attack WTJWorg and followers and other religious organizations.

So, I don't have such a logic, WTJWorg does. Perhaps the attacks on JWs and non-JWs in the past are only a small part of the bigger picture that WTJWorg persistently promotes. 

The time when the events in Malawi were taking place was the same time that WTJWorg was preaching that Armageddon was coming soon and that JWs were preparing for persecution. So the JW logic is subject to the promises/predictions/interpretations of the religious leaders that the persecutions will happen to them because of Jesus and YHVH.
If JWs expect this and prepare for it at every meeting in KH and at every Congress, then why ask for help from the Courts and other Political Institutions to stop and prevent "persecution"?

WTJWorg is contradicting itself. You expect persecution because you are living in the "last of the last days", and yet you try with all your might to delay and stop it. And so for more than a century. I do not understand you.

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, George88 said:

Vlastite riječi Hastingsa Kamuzua Bande.

Ljudi nas, kao naciju, nazivaju diktaturom. Mislim na novinare, koji pišu iz Londona i drugih mjesta, koji ne znaju ništa o ovoj zemlji. Kažu: "Kamuzu je diktator; Malavi je diktatura". Na primjer, u Londonu postoji čovjek po imenu Patrick Keatley, koji je na jednom od tamošnjih sastanaka rekao: "Malavi je diktatura; dr. Banda je bio u redu za borbu protiv Federacije, ali nije da vlada zemljom. On je diktator",

Laž:

Ponavljam: ljudi koji ne poznaju istinu o ovoj zemlji, posebno novinski novinari izvan ove zemlje, bilo u Europi ili drugim dijelovima Afrike, pričaju gluposti o ovoj zemlji. Mi nismo diktatura. Ako jesmo, ta diktatura je zasnovana na volji i želji samog naroda. I kad kažem ljudi, ne mislim samo na ljude u Blantyreu, Lilongweu i Zombi, već mislim na ljude u selima. Na te ljude mislim.

Neravnopravna propaganda:

Ovo je naš Ustav, namjerno je napravljen na ovaj način da svi dijelovi naše zajednice, stranački čelnici, tradicionalni vladari, predstavnici lokalne vlasti, žene, mladi, trebaju biti zastupljeni u tijelu koje odlučuje o politici ove zemlje. To je naša vrsta demokracije, što god drugi mislili. 

Kao što sam više puta rekao, demokracija ne može značiti istu stvar u Westminsteru, Washingtonu, Parizu, Bonnu, kao u Malaviju, jer su uvjeti i okolnosti koje su dovele do demokracije u Westminsteru, Washingtonu, Bonnu, Parizu, prilično različiti od uvjeta u Malaviju. Zato inzistiram na tome da nitko u Europi, Americi ili Aziji ne smije očekivati da kopiramo našu vrstu demokracije nakon njihove jer su uvjeti sasvim drugačiji, sasvim drugačiji. Onima koji žele imati posla s nama, moraju nas prihvatiti onakvima kakvi jesmo bez pokušaja nametanja vlastitih ideja demokracije. 

Kao što sam rekao prošle i pretprošle godine, izgradnja nacije i stranke mora značiti izgradnja nacije i stranke politički, ekonomski, moralno i duhovno . A to se, opet, kao što sam rekao prošle godine, ne može učiniti ako svi ne održavamo i strogo se pridržavamo četiri kamena temeljca na kojima su izgrađene naša stranka i vlada; naime: jedinstvo, odanost, poslušnost i disciplina. 

All this described is the same or similar to how religions behave. They can have doctrines and internal rules for their believers as they wish and do not allow that right to be denied to them. "Freedom of religion" is defended in the courts. WTJWorg, much like the President of Malawi, guards own "property".

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, Many Miles said:

I’m not sure what you read as a typo. Do you think “ allegience” is the proper spelling of allegiance? Is that what you’re talking about? 

No. That was my own typo. Sorry. It was the phrase "So held me God" instead of "So help me God." And Pudgy was only highlighting the part that says "Port of departure" instead of "Date of Departure" where part of the word "ALLEGIANCE" appeared writ large.

11 hours ago, Pudgy said:

The one you provided seems to be something issued by and on an ocean going vessel at a port of departure (?)

However, I note that Elizabeth's 1922 application (above) also contains "Port." I now suspect you are right however because I searched such images on Google and have now seen several different versions of the application form from the early 1900's, and I have now seen a few versions with typos in other places, although this is the only one I saw with the word "held". It was a ripe place for a typo however because some versions changed the font to italic only at that sentence. Some highlighted different words in that sentence. 

I brought it up, however, because major ex-JW sites are usually super-careful about never faking anything, especially because Witnesses so often claim that ex-JWs and non-JWs "always" fake things or take them out of context. Even claiming that photocopies of the literature have been faked. I have been through large portions of jwfacts.com, RF's CoC, COJ's GTR, etc., looking for exactly that kind of thing, and have never found a claim that could be countered with these common complaints. And where evidence exists elsewhere, it has ALWAYS supported the claims in those particular places. I can't say as much for ALL the ex-JW sites, because I haven't checked, but I know there is also a lot of misinformation out there from all sides. 

[JW Insider]

17 hours ago, Thinking said:

I seen many years ago on another site which I think is redundant now….i was never sure what to make of it…..this oath must have had many brothers and sisters who travelled overseas compromise themselves.

I signed almost precisely the same oath on my first passport. And yes I noticed it but it was easily explained away by my parents as just a necessary part of doing business in this world, and that all the brothers who need a passport sign it. Still, it felt funny when reading this scripture:

(Matthew 5:36, 37) . . .Do not swear by your head, since you cannot turn one hair white or black. ³⁷  Just let your word ‘Yes’ mean yes, your ‘No,’ no, for what goes beyond these is from the wicked one.
 

[JW Insider]

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

I love Russell but I don’t understand what he is saying here,.

Don't know if this will help, but I think he is just saying that when a foreigner comes to another country, that foreigner must still obey the laws of that country. But there is a limit to that obedience, because a foreigner isn't required to take an oath of allegiance or obedience in everything. For example, would a Chinese citizen visiting Australia be required to fight for Australia against China if war between the countries broke out during their visit? (Or vice versa.) In the same way, Russell says that Bible Students are all for obedience to the laws, but don't take an oath of obedience and allegiance in all things, because Bible Students are essentially "foreigners" in their own country when it comes to their higher allegiance to God. 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

"foreigners" in their own country

I want to make a little joke about the idea of JWs who are considered to only be "foreigners" in some country they live. Do JWs have dual citizenship? In which "country" are they tax residents? Will they be double taxed?

[Pudgy]

if I may make a request…… If you’re going to use SCRIPT, please make it a type size larger and bold. I have a lot of trouble reading it. Thanks!

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I want to make a little joke about the idea of JWs who are considered to only be "foreigners" in some country they live. Do JWs have dual citizenship? In which "country" are they tax residents? Will they be double taxed?

Do JWs have dual citizenship? In which "country" are they tax residents? Will they be double taxed?

[Pudgy]

Even the United States government realized in Court what you just stated, George 88, is not true. That’s why in 1972 they dropped it from the passport application.