Malawi and MCP Cards?

[TrueTomHarley]

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Then, in the early 1930s, they changed their doctrine. Another example of "old truths and new lies" or "old lies and new truths", take it as you will.

It is well not to describe religous interpretations as ‘lies’ when they cannot immediately be identified as such. With your patience—and you are certainly a patient and tenacious fellow—let me try to develop a point: 

Congregations are lately covering the Book of Job. Here, Job is giving his testimony: “Let God weigh me with accurate scales; Then he will recognize my integrity.” (Job 31:6)

His life course is one of integrity toward God. If it was not, downfall would be justified, he believes, but it has been

“If my footsteps deviate from the way Or my heart has followed after my eyes Or my hands have been defiled, … If my heart has been enticed by a woman And I have lain in wait at my neighbor’s door, … If I denied justice to my male or female servants When they had a complaint against me, … If I refused to give the poor what they desired Or saddened the eyes of the widow; If I ate my portion of food alone Without sharing it with the orphans;… If I saw anyone perishing for lack of clothing Or a poor man with nothing to cover himself; … If I shook my fist against the orphan When he needed my assistance in the city gate; … If I put my confidence in gold Or said to fine gold, ‘You are my security!’ If I found my joy in my great wealth Because of the many possessions I acquired;” (31: 7-25)

All those things would be bad, meriting God’s disfavor, he believes, but he never did any of them!

“Have I ever rejoiced over the destruction of my enemy Or gloated because evil befell him?  I never allowed my mouth to sin. . . Have the men of my tent not said, ‘Who can find anyone who has not been satisfied with his food?’ No stranger had to spend the night outside; I opened my doors to the traveler. Have I ever tried to cover over my transgressions, like other men, By hiding my error in the pocket of my garment?” Have I been in fear of the reaction of the multitude, Or have I been terrified by the contempt of other families, Making me silent and afraid to go outside?”  (29-34) No, his life is not characterized by any of those things.

It is his testimony. He has always been upright. He’s ready to sign it: “I would sign my name to what I have said.” (31:35)

It is all peremptorily denied by his three interrogators: 

Eliphaz: Is [your suffering] not because your own wickedness is so great And there is no end to your errors? For you seize a pledge from your brothers for no reason, And you strip people of their garments, leaving them naked. You do not give the tired one a drink of water, And you hold back food from the hungry. The land belongs to the powerful man, And the favored one dwells in it. But you sent away widows empty-handed, And you crushed the arms of fatherless children. That is why you are surrounded by traps, And sudden terrors frighten you;  (Job 22:5-10)

Why does he reject Job’s testimony, instead charging just the opposite? Because it conflicts with his own ‘theology:’ “What I have seen,” Eliphaz says previously, “is that those who plow what is harmful And those who sow trouble will reap the same. By the breath of God they perish, And through a blast of his anger they come to an end. . . . Even the teeth of strong lions are broken.”  (Job 4:8-10)

His preformed—faulty, as it turns out—theology tells him Job must have been ‘plowing what is harmful’ for him to be suffering now. Job, who otherwise might have agreed with that theology, undergoes the worst of spiritual crises to accompany his crisis on all other fronts, because he knows he has not been ‘plowing what is harmful’—quite the contrary. So he works out his angst by blaming God for being both cruel and unfair. This further inflames Eliphaz and crew, already riled that Job is resisting their ‘correction.’ Now they read  false positive for apostasy and figure they must attack Job for that reason, too. Presently they are all but hurling epithets at the poor fellow.

Before chalking up the above to the oddities of religious people (or applying them to Witness HQ), reflect that all of society is that way. If you have benefited from acupuncture, say, and want to tell the world about it, you will find yourself derided among the materialist crowd for advocating ‘pseudoscience.’ What about your own beneficial experience, you will ask. ‘It will be attributed to ‘anecdotal evidence,’ inherently unreliable. It doesn’t matter how many like testimonies you can gather; it will all be attributed to ‘anecdotal evidence’ by those whose scientific ‘theology’ admits to no other view—they can’t replicate your experience in their test tubes, so they assume you are either deluded or lying. Mechanisms may differ, but the overall pattern is no different than Job’s ‘anecdotal evidence’ rejected by those of a different theology.

You can go along with the airy dismissal of ‘anecdotal evidence.’ Then one day you find it is your evidence they are trying to dismiss and you wonder how people can be so high-handed and stubborn.

[Pudgy]

Another thing to consider is that everything we do in life is experimental, and just like Jehovah was surprised when the people rolled their children into the fiery stomachs of Molech, we are often surprised and sucker punched.

It’s not that we “love the Truth”, quite often what we love, we label as “ The Truth”. 

This is true for Saints and Monsters.

If a person is WRONG … but believes himself that what he in good conscience tells you is true …. that is NOT A LIE.

A lie has to be a DELIBERATE lie, and hearing something wrong from a self-deluded person, if you believe it, does NOT mean you have been lied to.

So, I believe that 95% of what we think is correct, that turns out to be wrong, in History, Astronomy, (Astronomer Percival Lowell believed he saw “Canals” on Mars …and for decades everyone on Earth believed it.), Chemistry, Physics … AND THEOLOGY, is not an attempt at deception.

Attempts at deception are lies.

Being cluelessly ignorant and self-delusional may make someone a certified fool … but labeling them as liars may be unfair …. and wrong!

[Pudgy]

However, that being said, realize that when a religion gets used to an unlimited supply of free money and real estate, very bad things become normal …. very fast.

Historically, there had never, ever, been an exception.

[Many Miles]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Before chalking up the above to the oddities of religious people (or applying them to Witness HQ), reflect that all of society is that way. If you have benefited from acupuncture, say, and want to tell the world about it, you will find yourself derided among the materialist crowd for advocating ‘pseudoscience.’ What about your own beneficial experience, you will ask. ‘It will be attributed to ‘anecdotal evidence,’ inherently unreliable. It doesn’t matter how many like testimonies you can gather; it will all be attributed to ‘anecdotal evidence’ by those whose scientific ‘theology’ admits to no other view—they can’t replicate your experience in their test tubes, so they assume you are either deluded or lying. Mechanisms may differ, but the overall pattern is no different than Job’s ‘anecdotal evidence’ rejected by those of a different theology.

You can go along with the airy dismissal of ‘anecdotal evidence.’ Then one day you find it is your evidence they are trying to dismiss and you wonder how people can be so high-handed and stubborn.

Anyone today claiming acupuncture is pseudoscience is uniformed. For instance, scientific methods of information examination shows some peripheral neuropathies are demonstrated to respond to acupuncture. Such a systematic review falls within the realm of scientific method.

That said, anecdotal evidence is still evidence. It just tends to have low veracity because though a particular experience may be accurately shared there could be more reasons for the experiential outcome than the individual realizes. I'd dare say that a majority of today's medical therapeutics began as anecdotal evidence used to form a hypothesis to help advance medical treatment. It is one thing to point out the weakness of anecdotal evidence, but no self-respecting scientific researcher would dismiss it out of hand, that is unless the claim has already been thoroughly refuted by systematic review and experimentation.

[George88]

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Many of us know that the early WT held the doctrine that all members of the movement would go to heaven. Then, in the early 1930s, they changed their doctrine. Another example of "old truths and new lies" or "old lies and new truths", take it as you will.

So you're saying that the gathering of the 144,000 is as relevant today as it was in the past. Only the manipulation from former members and dishonest current members has caused any changes.

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If a JW in the USA is a foreigner to the USA authorities, then where is his evidence that he is a citizen of Jesus' Kingdom? How can he prove this when according to WTJWorg theology, the invisible Kingdom has existed since 1914 and has not issued any certificates to its believers. Moreover, Jesus said that he would separate the sheep from the goats (separate its citizens from non-citizens) at some future time.

Those who truly comprehend scripture are well aware of the true path to follow. Nevertheless, individuals who do not comprehend this wisdom could be seen as adherents of misdirected beliefs.

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Even more, the right to citizenship, according to the interpretation, is obtained only after the final test at the end of the 1000-year Kingdom.
Who do today's JWs belong to? To those whose documents you have in your pocket.

The rebelliousness of citizens towards their own authorities has its justification in some matters and circumstances. But that applies to every government.

LOL!

[George88]

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

My comment:

What a country can ask of its citizens is no more or less than what WTJWorg asks of its followers. Things are quite clearly placed in the same or very similar frameworks. If you do not submit, you will be rejected and isolated. What then is the fundamental difference between secular and religious? There is no such thing. Both sides are prepared to take drastic measures to eliminate the ineligible.

Philosophy is an intricate and profound ideology. When individuals attempt to comprehend complexity, their focus becomes lost in the haze.

[Srecko Sostar]

WTJWorg teaches believers that "truth" must be based on the Bible. Anything contrary to "Bible truth" is called, by WTJWorg, a "lies" or "false teachings". 

Quote from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2018603?q=religious+lies&p=par

 

6, 7. (a) Why are religious leaders who lie especially guilty? (b) What lies have you heard religious leaders tell?

⁶ Religious leaders who lie are especially guilty because they endanger the future life prospects of those who believe their lies. If an individual accepts a false teaching and practices something that is actually condemned by God, it can cost that person his eternal life. (Hos. 4:9) Jesus knew that the religious leaders in his day were guilty of such deception. He told them to their face: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one convert, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Gehenna [everlasting destruction] twice as much so as yourselves.” (Matt. 23:15; ftn.) Jesus condemned those false religious leaders in the strongest terms. They truly were ‘from their father the Devil, a murderer.’—John 8:44.

⁷ Whether called pastors, priests, rabbis, swamis, or by some other title, religious leaders abound in the world today. Like their first-century counterparts, they are “suppressing the truth” from God’s Word and have “exchanged the truth of God for the lie.” (Rom. 1:18, 25) They promote such false teachings as “once saved, always saved,” the immortality of the human soul, reincarnation, and the foolish idea that God would condone homosexual lifestyles and same-sex marriages.

I have not noticed here that WTJWorg is full of understanding towards the religious leaders of other religions. They do not credit them with good intentions and sincerity in their belief in "their own truth". What will we do with it then? I believe that WTJWorg is misleading its believers. That is my "experienced truth". With what arguments can someone turn my "truth" into a lie?

Since I do not claim that my knowledge, experience ("truth") came because I was "guided by HS", nor do I claim that it is the only correct and authoritative one for millions of other people, then that does not make me, it doesn't put me in a category of a "false teacher". The most anyone can do is call me an idiot or delusional.
In contrast, GB claims that they are the only ones appointed by God to spread the "only truth" found only in WTJWorg. Then it completely changes the way this group of religious leaders should be viewed/questioned. As far as I know, they did not say that "they believe" how "the truth" was written in the publications. They say that this is "the truth" and that there are no other truths but theirs.

 

[Pudgy]

That’s what happens when you change the definitions of words…… It comes back to bite your buttocks off, one bite at a time.

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, Pudgy said:

Do you have a link to those WT pages?

Link to book:

https://www.academia.edu/34138714/Ever_changing_teachings_of_Jehovahs_Witnesses_The_most_important_changes_in_the_doctrine_of_the_Watchtower_Society_in_the_years_1879_2015?email_work_card=title

Link to WT magazine:

https://archive.org/details/WatchTowerAndHeraldOfChristsPresence1910-1919/page/n1545/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/WatchTowerAndHeraldOfChristsPresence1910-1919/page/n1547/mode/2up

[George88]

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If a Christian, who is an alien amongst 

all earthly governments, should, while journeying amongst them, be
requested to display a flag of the country whose benefits he is
enjoying, and refuse to do so, such refusal would be failing to show
the proper respect to such government.

Indeed, witnesses also understand the bible students didn't have a problem with the cross, so what!

This argument is invalid because there is a distinction between pledging allegiance to the flag and displaying it out of respect. This aligns with the mindset of Bible Students at that particular time. However, it does not align with the current viewpoint of Watchtower.

However, Pastor Russell's opinion was not present, as he had already passed away, and Rutherford was caught in the midst of a rebellion. 

R. E. STREETER  Pastoral Bible Institute
"The city of New York is to become to the Protestant Episcopal Church in America what the city of Rome is to the Roman Catholic Church. Instead of a Pope it is to have a presiding bishop, chairman of a council, which will correspond in many of its functions to the College of Cardinals. The entire Episcopal Church under the American flag, with its almost 2,000,000 communicants, is to be administered from the Episcopal 'Vatican' in the
Metropolis, just as is the entire Roman Communion with its almost 300,000,000
communicants from the chair of St. Peter in the Eternal City on the Tiber. . . . One striking difference between the Episcopal 'presiding bishop' and Pope Benedict XV is that Bishop Gailor is elected only for a term of six years, whereas the occupant of the Vatican throne is elected for life." p.379

CONGRESS ENACTS CONSCRIPTION LAW Watchtower May 15, 1917
PROVISION MADE FOR EXEMPTION IN CERTAIN CASES
Readers of THE WATCH TOWER throughout the country have been inquiring about Military conscription in the United States. We have promised to publish a statement as soon as conscription should become a reality by law. This is our first opportunity to do so. arises. All true Christians are law-abiding citizens, because the scriptures command them to be so.(Romans 13:1-9) 

Did Jesus prevent the apostles from carrying swords?

[George88]

3 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Link to book:

https://www.academia.edu/34138714/Ever_changing_teachings_of_Jehovahs_Witnesses_The_most_important_changes_in_the_doctrine_of_the_Watchtower_Society_in_the_years_1879_2015?email_work_card=title

George D Chryssides lol!

[Srecko Sostar]

1 minute ago, George88 said:

the current viewpoint of Watchtower.

Emphasis is on "current".

lol